Unbashing bad authors

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calling33

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Writers don't necessarily criticise poor writing skills because they are envious of commercial success. It can be that. But not necessarily.

As far as why these works enjoy commercial success is for the same reason the hoi polloi prefer to watch Top Gun and The Terminator films as opposed to Richard III.

But the Terminator films are good pieces of sci-fi and the ideas behind them are also brilliant. Top Gun on the other hand...

I refuse to read 50 Shades of Grey purely because I've heard from so many people that the writing is that bad. I did however read the Twilight series (except for the last one as we lost the book) because my husband convinced me and I found them pretty enjoyable. I wouldn't say they're the best books in the world but they did tap in a certain zeitgeist (For want of another way of putting it). I also loved the Dan Brown books as easy reads that didn't take much thinking. They kept you interested and built suspense and storyline really well. Never mind the fact that they weren't factually accurate, so what? It's fiction, it doesn't need to be :)
 

katci13

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While I may shy away from calling it 'bashing' I can certainly agree with what I feel the intent was of this thread.

Books that are sucessful - commercially speaking this time - I feel should be studied. Most of the time that I see someone doing a 'study' of things like Twilight (personally I couldn't make it through...but it's not my kind of book. I *hate* vampires!) usually it's taking apart what is wrong with the book. Rarely outside of a few posts in this thread so I see someone pointing out what's positive about the book.

As writers of fiction we attempt to entertain. Twilight and many others have done it sucessfully. I for one would like to draw lessons from that sucess.

I completely agree. Twilight was successful for a reason. It was appealing in some way. I look at books like that and try to see why they were successful despite being awful according to some people.

I only didn't read Twilight at first because I didn't want to. I actually love vampires..."real" vampires. I didn't think Twilight was about the kind of vampires I'm used to and love. I thought it was teen chick lit in fake supernatural skin.

I only got mad at the books because people kept pressuring me to read it. Never before (and I hope never again) have I even been mad about a book's success. If anything, it gives me hope that it can happen to me.

If it had been an author who's books I've actually read and wanted to read that hit it big, I would have been crazy excited. And honestly, I usually am excited because I love to see books turned into movies.

Social pressure to see what all the fuss is about shouldn't be ignored. I almost changed my mind several times because of pressure or curiosity. In fact, that's how I got into Hunger Games and that's how I got into Harry Potter. Actually, HP was assigned reading for a study abroad class, but I still didn't have to read it. I didn't read half the books for that class. But I read that one because I wanted to see what the fuss was about. I only hadn't read it because I didn't think I would like a children's book about a boy wizard. I actually sat in the last half hour of movie 2 once because a friend was seeing it and that movie was longer than the one the rest of us were seeing. I remember thinking it was quite good. But it still had the kid moniker on it.

Most of the popular books that I don't read is just because it's not the kind of book I usually go for. I haven't read Dan Brown, but I do love those movies. Honestly though, I only watched the first one because I heard the Catholic Church made this big stink about it. The plot line is crap, but oh my gosh, it was entertaining. Same with Angels and Demons. If I liked books like that I would totally read them because I'm starting to think he's brilliant. And to get Tom Hanks for your movie...how awesome is that?
 
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Books that are sucessful - commercially speaking this time - I feel should be studied. Most of the time that I see someone doing a 'study' of things like Twilight (personally I couldn't make it through...but it's not my kind of book. I *hate* vampires!) usually it's taking apart what is wrong with the book. Rarely outside of a few posts in this thread so I see someone pointing out what's positive about the book.

As writers of fiction we attempt to entertain. Twilight and many others have done it sucessfully. I for one would like to draw lessons from that sucess.



I think you make a mistake in assuming that a commercially successful book has to be anything other than somewhat readable and semi-coherent. People say so many bad things about Twilight because there are so many obvious bad things to say, whereas they are comparably fewer obviously good things to say. In fact, I have yet to hear someone make an argument for Twilight being a good book that was either not refutable or so vague as to make a real discussion difficult:

It "tapped into the zeitgeist" is really just another way of saying it sold a lot of copies, for example. Which it certainly did, and I congratulate Meyer on making such a great living off of her creative side.

I don't think I've really heard any other positive comments that could be construed as arguments for the success of the book. I'm not saying that makes it an indisputably awful novel/series, but if you're going to argue that the current criticism is unbalanced, providing some examples of things the book did well would do a lot to convince the people you're debating with.
 
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OliverCrown

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I think you make a mistake in assuming that a commercially successful book has to be anything other than somewhat readable and semi-coherent. People say so many bad things about Twilight because there are so many obvious bad things to say, whereas they are comparably fewer obviously good things to say. In fact, I have yet to hear someone make an argument for Twilight being a good book that was either not refutable or so vague as to make a real discussion difficult:

It "tapped into the zeitgeist" is really just another way of saying it sold a lot of copies, for example. Which it certainly did, and I congratulate Meyer on making such a great living off of her creative side.

I don't think I've really heard any other positive comments that could be construed as arguments for the success of the book. I'm not saying that makes it an indisputably awful novel/series, but if you're going to argue that the current criticism is unbalanced, providing some examples of things the book did well would do a lot to convince the people you're debating with.

Then let me pose the following question.

I think you make a mistake in assuming that a commercially successful book has to be anything other than somewhat readable and semi-coherent.

Based on this I'd make a logical leap & suggest that perhaps this book is more readable and more 'semi-coherent' than most others based on sales.

Assuming that's not the point, what did the Twilight books do well that allows it to resonate with so many out there? And why have other books that are perhaps more readable not done the same?


With my limited study of the book - primarily through interviewing several of its readers - here is one thing that I take away from the Twilight sucess that I feel many in my genre (and other genres) would do well to emulate.

They attract a (predominately) female reader who enjoys being the center of romantic attention, while still remaining the outsider. This is something these books tapped into, and sales prove it. Selling to a large demographic by inclusion has (IMHO) paid off.

In the comic book/sci-fi genre, women are too often (in my personal opinion) left on the sidelines to watch, dangled from a wire to be saved, or put in a bed to be wooed. Many other genres I feel do the same. Twilight...not as much.

So, assuming that other written works have attempted to appeal to this HUGE, MONEY SPENDING DEMOGRAPHIC then what makes Twilight so sucessful? Furthermore, what can we learn from what was done in/with Twilight?
 

muravyets

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I don't think we should try to learn anything from what was done in/with Twilight, unless our goal is to write a Twilight clone.

Or rather, let me qualify that: I think we can learn patterns of successful and unsuccessful professional methods and behaviors by studying many examples of writers. What are their work habits? How do they manage their careers? Are there common behaviors, habits, or methods shared by consistently successful writers, and are there others shared by chronically unsuccessful writers? If we want to know how to become a bestselling author, I don't think we should be looking at the books, but at the authors.

Why? Because we all write our own books. I'm not looking to copy what Meyer or Brown or King wrote, just like I'm not looking to copy what Dickens or Shakespeare wrote. I write what I write, and just like every other writer out there, it's up to me to sell what I write. Selling the work is really the only thing I will have in common, professionally, with all those other writers. I should look at how they work, not what they produce, if I want to know how to make my work marketable.

That's my opinion.

ETA: Example: I periodically drive myself nuts trying to come up with a working title for my WIP. Not settling on one bothers me, because I feel like it means I haven't settled on the primary theme of the story if I can't pick a title for it. So I'm planning to spend my morning coffee time tomorrow googling bestselling and classic horror novels to see if I can find any kind of a pattern to the forms of popular horror titles. Do I want to find a "winning" title format for my book? No, I'm just looking for some inspiration for my own thinking. In the end, if anyone wants to publish my book, they'll probably want to re-title it anyway. I don't expect to gain a key to making my book more marketable by looking this stuff up. I only hope something will click with my own mind to help me pick a working title that I'll be comfortable with, and maybe some insight into the art of succinct messaging.
 
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OliverCrown

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If we want to know how to become a bestselling author, I don't think we should be looking at the books, but at the authors.

*snip*

I should look at how they work, not what they produce, if I want to know how to make my work marketable.

That's my opinion.

ETA: Example: I periodically drive myself nuts trying to come up with a working title for my WIP.
*snip again*

So I'm planning to spend my morning coffee time tomorrow googling bestselling and classic horror novels to see if I can find any kind of a pattern to the forms of popular horror titles. Do I want to find a "winning" title format for my book? No, I'm just looking for some inspiration for my own thinking.

That is exactly my point. Look at the Twilight books - what is it the author did that made them connect with readers? What lessons can we take from that?

Lookng at other titles for inspiration, trying to glean something that can be learned from the pattern or structure of other titles.


I don't think anyone wishes to copy Twilight (ok, I'm sure someone wants to). My point is that Twilight - the books/story/author/etc. - holds lessons/habbits/skills that perhaps we can place in our toolboxes as authors.
 

muravyets

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That is exactly my point. Look at the Twilight books - what is it the author did that made them connect with readers? What lessons can we take from that?

Lookng at other titles for inspiration, trying to glean something that can be learned from the pattern or structure of other titles.


I don't think anyone wishes to copy Twilight (ok, I'm sure someone wants to). My point is that Twilight - the books/story/author/etc. - holds lessons/habbits/skills that perhaps we can place in our toolboxes as authors.
I don't think Meyer did anything to make the books connect with readers. They certainly did not connect with this reader, or millions of others, though they did find millions who did like them.

What I think Meyer did with regard to her books was write them. The way she liked, and as she saw fit. End of.

The question for me then is what else did she do? How did she present the MS to get that first contract? How did she manage her time and habits to maintain steady productivity? How hands-on was she in the marketing of the books, etc? If she's holding the reins, when did she take them -- after proving herself to her publisher, or from the get-go? How does she maintain consistent quality in her work -- such as it is?

And maybe just as important, how many failures has she had and how did she deal with them?

We may take Ms Meyer as a rhetorical example. This is what I want to know about any successful writer. Sometimes, it's helpful and sometimes it isn't, but since what I'm looking for is to study the work habits and professional methods of successful and effective people, that's what I'm interested in.
 

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I suppose we could learn from Twilight that one route to a successful book might be to present abusive relationships as romantic. For myself, I wouldn't want success on those terms. YMMV.
 

shadowwalker

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I'm not sure examining what the author did would be that helpful, particularly since the mantra seems to be "Do what works for you", and knowing that every book and every author is different, the things she did/didn't do might not even pertain to that many other authors.

Looking at the book poses its own limitations. I don't know that one book (by any author) can be that valuable - but looking at several successful books in a particular genre, or aimed at a particular audience, written by several authors - then you might start to see a pattern of what worked and what didn't, and to what degree.

But the biggest variable will always be the readers - and I don't think anyone will be able to predict with any certainty which books will not just be bestsellers, but be huge bestsellers. Those books will always have that something that grabs readers - and frankly I think it will always be elusive, and resistant to identification.
 

Channy

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I don't think Meyer did anything to make the books connect with readers. They certainly did not connect with this reader, or millions of others, though they did find millions who did like them.

What I think Meyer did with regard to her books was write them. The way she liked, and as she saw fit. End of.

With a lot of highly successful female writers, this is what I've noticed. They always say they wrote the story for themselves. And they are usually first time writers, the average Jill Shmoe who had a regular job, had an idea that struck her particular fancy, and wrote it.

And maybe just as important, how many failures has she had and how did she deal with them?
I remember reading that she had 15 rejections before the agent accepted her, which seems startling low, doesn't it?

I suppose we could learn from Twilight that one route to a successful book might be to present abusive relationships as romantic. For myself, I wouldn't want success on those terms. YMMV.

There are a lot of things wrong with Twilight that I've noticed, but abusive wasn't one of them. 50 Shades is emotionally abusive and manipulative and (considering its source), takes it up a notch.

Edward was this perfect guy who followed Bella around. He was constantly drawn to her (via her smell) and this put strain and taboo on the pretense of their relationship.

Most girls in the generation that I come from (20-25 year olds), and that age of this generation, at some point wanted a man like that. Most teenage girls have fantasized about being the core of a man's life, the thing that drives him, entices him, and at the same time, the thing he would put his life on the line for.

SMeyer was outstanding at creating this plain Jane cardboard cutout that any teenage girl could insert themselves in. A lot of young girls of this generation will keep a guy on the back burner "just in case" only to friend zone him later on, will follow a guy across the world and back to make him reconsider things, and, secretly, wants to be watched while she slept, because it shows he cares.

There's nothing 'wrong' with SMeyers books, there's something significantly wrong with this generation if they can idolize this man (and his doppelganger, Christian Grey). Her books weren't literary masterpieces; she was an average person, so she wrote with average person tendencies. Bad grammar, poor prose, improper sentence structure. But the average teenage girl picking this book up, won't notice any of this, she'll be too engrossed by Edward's declaration of love despite his insatiable blood lust for her.

So I think a lot of what it boils down to is that a lot of these best sellers aren't literary classics. They tell a decent story that the target audience can insert themselves into, without the prose being too difficult for them to follow. Because, and I think you might notice, the ones who are bashing these authors for bad grammar or poor character development, aren't the people who seldom pick up a book for sport, it's the ones who pour their lives into the craft and know the rules like the top of their pen.

We know that these rules are followed for a reason, and can't possibly fathom how something that has broken 8/10 rules can sell a million copies and have a movie deal. If these things were okay to deviate from, then why do we even bother? Why aren't we all throwing caution to the wind and dumbing down our stories so more people will pick it up? Because we have too much respect for ourselves and won't succumb to selling out like that. These authors, these multimillion dollar, first time authors, don't know the first thing about writing, they just had the right idea at the right time.
 
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calling33

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I suppose we could learn from Twilight that one route to a successful book might be to present abusive relationships as romantic. For myself, I wouldn't want success on those terms. YMMV.

You have a point there - it's not healthy to romanticise relationships like that to a teen audience - however, I found them a realistic representation of some relationships where both people can totally love each other but too much or have a reason why that love should be denied. It's not exactly abusive per se as that would imply that there was some intent to be malicious behind the actions. I've been one just like it and for that reason I found Twilight very compelling.

I know this is off-topic but love isn't always this fairy-tale, lights and excitement. It can be dark and sinister (see stalkers) too.
 

RachaelLaWriter

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I haven't gone back and read all the other comments on this thread yet, but when I read The Da Vinci Code, although I hated it, I think that Dan Brown's movie-pace writing style appealed to many readers. His chapters were short enough that people could digest them easily, and as I was reading, I often thought, "This book is written as if it would rather be a movie." That turned me off -- I'm more of a leisurely, literary fiction kind of girl -- but for people like my dad, who prefers films to books and has an admittedly short attention span, the super-short, action-packed chapters were more palatable.
 

muravyets

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I'm not sure examining what the author did would be that helpful, particularly since the mantra seems to be "Do what works for you", and knowing that every book and every author is different, the things she did/didn't do might not even pertain to that many other authors.

Looking at the book poses its own limitations. I don't know that one book (by any author) can be that valuable - but looking at several successful books in a particular genre, or aimed at a particular audience, written by several authors - then you might start to see a pattern of what worked and what didn't, and to what degree.
I tend to see studying the writers in the same way as studying their books. They are both examples that may or may not prove useful. Still, when it comes to our own work, we're the ones who will do it, so we should do what works for us.

But the biggest variable will always be the readers - and I don't think anyone will be able to predict with any certainty which books will not just be bestsellers, but be huge bestsellers. Those books will always have that something that grabs readers - and frankly I think it will always be elusive, and resistant to identification.
I agree. There's only so much an author can do to clear the way for their book and the readers to come together. To that extent, I personally see value in studying how consistently successful writers do that. But studying best practices of that kind will only help writers avoid putting obstacles in their own way (which is why I think I'd get more out of studying the writers themselves, if the point of the study is to sell books, not necessarily write great ones). However, it won't produce a bestseller or blockbuster. That part's magic, I guess.
 
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With a lot of highly successful female writers, this is what I've noticed. They always say they wrote the story for themselves. And they are usually first time writers, the average Jill Shmoe who had a regular job, had an idea that struck her particular fancy, and wrote it.

I remember reading that she had 15 rejections before the agent accepted her, which seems startling low, doesn't it?



There are a lot of things wrong with Twilight that I've noticed, but abusive wasn't one of them. 50 Shades is emotionally abusive and manipulative and (considering its source), takes it up a notch.

Edward was this perfect guy who followed Bella around. He was constantly drawn to her (via her smell) and this put strain and taboo on the pretense of their relationship.

Most girls in the generation that I come from (20-25 year olds), and that age of this generation, at some point wanted a man like that. Most teenage girls have fantasized about being the core of a man's life, the thing that drives him, entices him, and at the same time, the thing he would put his life on the line for.

SMeyer was outstanding at creating this plain Jane cardboard cutout that any teenage girl could insert themselves in. A lot of young girls of this generation will keep a guy on the back burner "just in case" only to friend zone him later on, will follow a guy across the world and back to make him reconsider things, and, secretly, wants to be watched while she slept, because it shows he cares.

There's nothing 'wrong' with SMeyers books, there's something significantly wrong with this generation if they can idolize this man (and his doppelganger, Christian Grey). Her books weren't literary masterpieces; she was an average person, so she wrote with average person tendencies. Bad grammar, poor prose, improper sentence structure. But the average teenage girl picking this book up, won't notice any of this, she'll be too engrossed by Edward's declaration of love despite his insatiable blood lust for her.

So I think a lot of what it boils down to is that a lot of these best sellers aren't literary classics. They tell a decent story that the target audience can insert themselves into, without the prose being too difficult for them to follow. Because, and I think you might notice, the ones who are bashing these authors for bad grammar or poor character development, aren't the people who seldom pick up a book for sport, it's the ones who pour their lives into the craft and know the rules like the top of their pen.

We know that these rules are followed for a reason, and can't possibly fathom how something that has broken 8/10 rules can sell a million copies and have a movie deal. If these things were okay to deviate from, then why do we even bother? Why aren't we all throwing caution to the wind and dumbing down our stories so more people will pick it up? Because we have too much respect for ourselves and won't succumb to selling out like that. These authors, these multimillion dollar, first time authors, don't know the first thing about writing, they just had the right idea at the right time.

I'm sorry, but Edward was extremely abusive to Bella. Your teen girl insert point is right on the money, I think, but the Edward thing is just wrong. Edward was not perfect, he was just hot and interested, which I know can count for a lot around that age, but he was emotionally manipulative, physically abusive, and a huge fucking stalker. It seems like that didn't hurt sales of the book much, but it's still a "problem" with the books.

This really isn't the thread for an in-depth discussion of stalking and abuse, which are complicated and possibly triggering topics, but they were absolutely a component of the books.

You have a point there - it's not healthy to romanticise relationships like that to a teen audience - however, I found them a realistic representation of some relationships where both people can totally love each other but too much or have a reason why that love should be denied. It's not exactly abusive per se as that would imply that there was some intent to be malicious behind the actions. I've been one just like it and for that reason I found Twilight very compelling.

I know this is off-topic but love isn't always this fairy-tale, lights and excitement. It can be dark and sinister (see stalkers) too.

The relationship portrayed in the books is abusive, no question. That's not a big issue because it's good to examine that kind of thing in our fiction. It's the glorification and romanticization that most people are objecting to. If she had just been examining such a relationship, there wouldn't be nearly as much criticism.

Rather than take up the board space I'll simply say:

This is exactly the kind of post this thread (and this forum) needs in my humble opinion. Copy-pasta'd for my notebook.

Thank you very much.

There are some good points about the success of the books hidden in the post, but not really much in terms of what we can learn from the way Meyer and others did things.


The lady wrote a book, which, bad or not, was popular. There's not really much else to be gotten from the conversation.
 

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There are a lot of things wrong with Twilight that I've noticed, but abusive wasn't one of them.

People have taken Twilight apart to demonstrate how the Bella/Edward relationship is abusive, using markers for abusive relationships. If your boyfriend is constantly talking about how you should keep away from him or he'll fuck you to death, that is not a *healthy* relationship.

Most teenage girls have fantasized about being the core of a man's life, the thing that drives him, entices him, and at the same time, the thing he would put his life on the line for.

I have no idea whether 'most' girls do that. Maybe they do, but I'd like to see the data.
 

ArachnePhobia

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People have taken Twilight apart to demonstrate how the Bella/Edward relationship is abusive, using markers for abusive relationships. If your boyfriend is constantly talking about how you should keep away from him or he'll fuck you to death, that is not a *healthy* relationship.

What Buffysquirrel and Liosse said. He buys her clothes and cars, which I admit is easy to read over as OMG fabulous expensive gifts from rich BF! ...except he's basically choosing what she wears and drives and- in a scene that's supposed to be funny, no less- admits he does this because he thinks his choices are better for her than hers would be. Maybe it's not obvious, but make no mistake, it is abuse, and a common thread in abusive relationships.
 

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This might be a tad off topic, but I'm wondering if Beautiful Creatures is at all comparable to Twilight.

Unfortunately, I haven't read Beautiful Creatures. I did, however, manage to catch the movie the other night. And, to me, something seemed off. I tried to imagine the novel from the movie, but the scenes felt sloppy and poorly connected. The characterization, in the film, mostly just confused me. This could have, of course, just been a problem with the translation. But, to me, the scenes just didn't connect very well. It was like: insert argument here, insert sad scene here, insert happy scene here. None of it felt organic; the character motivations were inconsistent and awkward.

I guess I'm wondering if anyone here thought Beautiful Creatures (the novel, not the movie) had flaws/merits similar to Twilight.
 

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Well, I only read the first book, but it's ALL about sex.


How? I'd really like an explanation because, I confess, I have trouble reading between the lines sometimes.


I think the reason why Twilight was so successful is because it promised young girls the idea of a perfect life. Bella's whole life is perfect. Everybody loves her, 5 boys fall in love with her the first day of school, she doesn't have to ask her father permission to go out, she's involved in a love triangle, and in the end, "they all march into their beautiful forever." I haven't read "Breaking Dawn" but someone made fun of that line while bashing the series on YouTube. "Twilight" immerses you in a life you dream of. However, I don't envy Stephenie Meyer's success because I don't like her writing. I've got nothing against her, but she never uses "said" as a dialogue tag in her first installment of "Twilight", and her characters are always making exaggerated facial gestures, and of course, Bella can't stop going on and on about how hot Edward is. Seriously, it's like the book is all about Edward's hotness, and nothing else. Her prose is purple. I dislike purple prose. It would take me forever to go into examples, but yeah, I hate that. I also hate how Meyer painted being abusive as something positive, as a good quality in a love interest. Watching you sleep for 2 months while you've only been at that city for 1 month? :eek: Telling you what to do, who to hang out and what to wear? :Jaw: I don't think so. If I noticed those characteristics in a boyfriend, I'd dump him and move to another country. However, of all the authors the OP mentioned, Stephenie Meyer is the only one whose success I'm not jealous of.
 

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How? I'd really like an explanation because, I confess, I have trouble reading between the lines sometimes.

Hmm, well, to go into specifics I'd have to get another copy of the book and then I'd have to read it again, and, how can I express this clearly enough...

NO FREAKING WAY

However, when they think/talk about dying and vampirism, they're thinking/talking about sex. Just because there's no actual physical sex in the book doesn't mean it isn't obsessed with the subject.
 

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Hmm, well, to go into specifics I'd have to get another copy of the book and then I'd have to read it again, and, how can I express this clearly enough...

NO FREAKING WAY

However, when they think/talk about dying and vampirism, they're thinking/talking about sex. Just because there's no actual physical sex in the book doesn't mean it isn't obsessed with the subject.


Since I've been away from this thread awaiting your reply, I thought it over, and you're right. The first book is extremely sexual just because they're talking about vampirism and death, and because like I said, (I answered my own question, I'm afraid) Bella can't stop going on and on about how hot Edward is! It's almost like she gets err...aroused while thinking about him because that's all she notices in him. There's no talk about his personality, about the attention he pays her, about the few good things he does for her...no. It's just, "Oh, he's so hot". "Oh, he takes my breath away". "Oh, my God, when we kiss my heart literally stops beating". *squee* No, seriously...I've been thinking it over, and when a character fawns about another character solely because of his or her looks, the book is oozing sex, because the character's desire for that other character can't be tamed.
 
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