Psychologists repudiate gay-to-straight therapy

MacAllister · Aug 7, 2009

Actually, no. It doesn't have to be addressed or criticized, and pot shots don't have to be taken at his or anyone else's faith.

Not here.

Bird of Prey · Aug 7, 2009

MacAllister said:
Actually, no. It doesn't have to be addressed or criticized, and pot shots don't have to be taken at his or anyone else's faith.

Not here.

So his statement, regardless of implication, is O.K. with you? And if he said it in some form regardless of religious context, would it still be O.K. with you?

Because if I told you that Christianity was on the only road to heaven, would that be O.K. with you on this forum? That decent people may ascend, but Christians are you know, on the fast track. . . .

Look, I'm not looking for a fight, I'm looking for where you stand without some kind of hostile reaction so that I know, in the future, whether or how I should post, should I be accepted to do so. . . . .I know this: I've defended plenty of religious criticism here, but not any that claimed superiority, which is where I draw the line. . . .

Williebee · Aug 7, 2009

Arbiter/

Here's a different two cents worth --

It should be fairly clear, for anyone who has been around P&CE for longer than a couple of weeks that, if you state your belief as "fact", you will find a half dozen or more others bearing "facts" of their own.

That said, the poster has a right to his beliefs, even when not phrased that way.

Try it this way:

"You're going to Hell!" "No, you're going to Hell!" Gets us nowhere.

Whereas:

"My religious studies have taught me 'this' and from that I believe folks who commit these sins are going to Hell."

"Interesting, I was raised to believe 'this' and my faith doesn't agree."

It may end us up in the same place, but at least we learned something on the way.

I might also suggest that, if "the party of the first part" just opens with

"You're going to Hell!" We're all better served with either a "Yeah? Says who?" or at maybe a silent "whatever" and a trip to another thread.

Thanks,

/Arbiter

Bird of Prey · Aug 7, 2009

Williebee said:
Arbiter/

Here's a different two cents worth --

It should be fairly clear, for anyone who has been around P&CE for longer than a couple of weeks that, if you state your belief as "fact", you will find a half dozen or more others bearing "facts" of their own.

That said, the poster has a right to his beliefs, even when not phrased that way.

Try it this way:

"You're going to Hell!" "No, you're going to Hell!" Gets us nowhere.

Whereas:

"My religious studies have taught me 'this' and from that I believe folks who commit these sins are going to Hell."

"Interesting, I was raised to believe 'this' and my faith doesn't agree."

It may end us up in the same place, but at least we learned something on the way.

I might also suggest that, if "the party of the first part" just opens with

"You're going to Hell!" We're all better served with either a "Yeah? Says who?" or at maybe a silent "whatever" and a trip to another thread.

Thanks,

/Arbiter

So do you believe the onus is upon me to indulge - or accept - another's elitism on the basis that his frame of reference, being religious, precludes him from equality with the many of the posters here who may be of another faith?? That I should be forced to say nothing on the basis that he is entitled to exalt his superiority as a matter of God's will? I should never challenge that? Because you know, it has political ramifications. Does that mean that Muslim extremists get the same treatment here? How about Christians? The problem I have has little to do with isolated religions, but rather, that what he said, in it's core, is hostile to people not of his faith. He is promoting elitism. It's snobbery. I not have the right to challenge that??

Delhomeboy · Aug 7, 2009

Bird of Prey said:
So do you believe the onus is upon me to indulge - or accept - another's elitism on the basis that his frame of reference, being religious, precludes him from equality with the many of the posters here who may be of another faith?? That I should be forced to say nothing on the basis that he is entitled to exalt his superiority as a matter of God's will? I should never challenge that? Because you know, it has political ramifications. Does that mean that Muslim extremists get the same treatment here? How about Christians? The problem I have has little to do with isolated religions, but rather, that what he said, in it's core, is hostile to people not of his faith. He is promoting elitism. It's snobbery. I not have the right to challenge that??

Why? It's not hurting anyone. It certainly's not offending me. And it's not snobbery. The Jews have always been God's people, according to the Christian/Jewish creed.

The problem is not the "superiority" It's that people make a big deal of the "superiority."

Deleted member 42 · Aug 7, 2009

Bird of Prey said:
Regardless of my effect, the "truth" of his conviction - which is that he belongs to a group superior to the rest - needs to be, at least, addressed, as this kind of cultish declaration has serious consequences abroad. Otherwise, I have no problem with his conviction. Some people of faith need to feel that only their faith has the straight shot to God. Of course, he'll know when he meets his Maker, eh??

Learn to read.

He doesn't say "we're chosen and you're shite," he merely affirms that within his religion Jews are in fact singled out by God if they keep their covenants.

You will note that he's not even trying to convert. Heck, Judaism is the only religion I know of that tries to dissuade people from conversion on the basis of the difficulty and trials living as a Jew.

Pretty much every single religion I know of--living and dead--describes it's adherents as "special."

And any religion at all meets the definition of cult--so are you ascribing something else there? Because you're not using the word "cult" the way historians do--and I note that Christianity was first described as a cult in writing in 33 B.C.

MacAllister · Aug 7, 2009

Oh for crying out loud. You're going to assign "cult" to Judaism? And that's somehow supposed to be respectful of other people's beliefs?

I meant exactly what I said, Bird.

You're not going to turn this thread into some sort of weird world-according-to-BOP sectarian squabble about who gets to believe what, when you're Queen of the World.

Bird of Prey · Aug 7, 2009

MacAllister said:
Oh for crying out loud. You're going to assign "cult" to Judaism? And that's somehow supposed to be respectful of other people's beliefs?

Excuse me, wrong post but, Medievalist, he didn't say "keep the covenants" at all. You know perfectly well that's not how he phrased it. There's no point in making that little issue my problem. Back to Mac. . . .

I meant exactly what I said, Bird.

You're not going to turn this thread into some sort of weird world-according-to-BOP sectarian squabble about who gets to believe what, when you're Queen of the World

I stand by what I said. I have no regrets. . . .

MacAllister · Aug 7, 2009

And I'm standing by what I said. Put it down, and walk away from that particularly offensive line of personal attack, BoP. This isn't the place for a debate about the pros or cons of any member's religious doctrine.

Psychologists repudiate gay-to-straight therapy

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee

Bird of Prey

Benefactor Member

Williebee

Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.

Bird of Prey

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Delhomeboy

Stalking Jennifer Aniston!

Deleted member 42

MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee

Bird of Prey

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MacAllister

'Twas but a dream of thee