Polygamist raid

Status
Not open for further replies.

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
5,198
Reaction score
915
Location
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But, again, let's not let factual accuracy get in the way of a good sound polemic.

caw

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Hundreds of people are being held without bail, officially arrested or not. Are you saying that bail has been set for these people, or that they aren't being held? Or perhaps you're didactically questioning my use of "none," because, in fact, two people have officially been arrested, and so might have made bail, even though you don't have a clue. If so, this is trivial and asinine.
 
Last edited:

Gary

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
968
Reaction score
153
Location
East Texas
I am honestly trying to understand the perspective here. Maybe you could explain how you think it should have been handled. Maybe if we look at it from that perspective, I could understand where you and Julie are coming from. Could you please explain to me -- not what the authorities did wrong but rather what they should have done to do it right?

As for the religious argument, I cannot see it at all. This is nothing to do with religion at all. This is about laws being broken, women and girls being victimized, a young lady's call for help... it wouldn't matter a tinker's damn what religion they were and so that shouldn't even enter into how the situation should be handled.


I concur with a need to investigate the phone call, but they weren't called to investigate 400 cases. In my opinion, they should have entered the compound with a search warrant to discover facts pertaining to that single case. If the investigation led to another illegal "family" situation, you get another search warrant and investigate that.

Despite reasonable suspicions, there is no way they can have probable cause to mass investigate that many cases. Plural marriages are not allowed in any state, so the only question the state can ask is if illegal sex with a minor has taken place. What other charges could be made against consenting adults living under the same roof?

Don't misunderstand, I think they are all nutty, but I don't like the way the case is being handled because it sets precedents. I thought the Texas Rangers were smarter than the feds involved in the Waco massacre, but I'm beginning to wonder.
 

William Haskins

poet
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
29,114
Reaction score
8,867
Age
58
Website
www.poisonpen.net
I concur with a need to investigate the phone call, but they weren't called to investigate 400 cases. In my opinion, they should have entered the compound with a search warrant to discover facts pertaining to that single case. If the investigation led to another illegal "family" situation, you get another search warrant and investigate that.

no. when serving a warrant, authorities are empowered to follow up on suspicion of additional crimes via probable cause.
 

Gary

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
968
Reaction score
153
Location
East Texas
Pre-teen sex, acceptable? Is that everywhere, or just Texas?

It must be acceptable to many people, since junior high schools are often tasked with handing out condoms, and parents are denied knowledge school officials might have about the sexual activity of their children. Perhaps it's been too long since I've had kids in school, but that's what I hear reported.
 

brittanimae

making a fresh start.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
2,336
Reaction score
695
Location
plotting on another planet . . .
First of all, I have to say that I so much appreciate all the response this thread has received. Issues like this really aren't cut and dried, and a democracy only works when it is supported and upheld by the people. The responses to this thread demonstrate a level of thought and concern that I think is a credit to AW (well, most of them ;) )

Thanks especially for your post Gary, and also the person who posted from Texas, giving us a better vantage point.

My own current feeling about the situation as it has evolved, is that this community gave off strong warning signals that indicated some type of investigation was needed. But I feel that law-enforcement and CPS have over-stepped the authority given them by law, and in addition to this, I feel that media coverage has been sensational and inappropriate.

On the first count, I don't believe that 400 children should have been taken from their mothers. The mothers don't seem to be under suspicion, and taking the children from their care seems extreme. Of course they followed, but "by choice" is a stretch. If the men are being investigated, they should be detained for questioning. The women and children should be allowed to stay if they prefer.

On the second count, the media coverage has been inappropriate. I have seen interviews with random people where they do nothing but gasp "Oh my! These children don't know what a television is! They wanted to clean stuff! They were holding real babies instead of dolls and seemed to know how to care for them! They eat fruit and nuts and no potato chips!"

These things tell me that these people are living a different lifestyle. One that I don't choose, but one that seems to have benefits as well as drawbacks. I want to hear THEIR side. Not of one woman who left--she obviously didn't care for it--but from the ones who have stayed voluntarily--and by most accounts there are some of these.

I know this is getting long, so I'll finish with this. Someone asked about my peachy-keen view of how things should work. I have a father who is a convicted felon as a result of false charges and manufactured evidence brought against him by (you guessed it) my mother. He is also nearly bankrupt after fighting the charges tooth and nail over several years. I watched first-hand the gross miscarriage of justice brought about by overzealous law-enforcement officers and prosecutors. So, yeah, I'm not one to jump to conclusions.
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
no. when serving a warrant, authorities are empowered to follow up on suspicion of additional crimes via probable cause.

In addition to which there is the simple matter of securing a crime scene. It's not at all uncommon for police to order evacuation of a house when they are looking for a single criminal. They had every right to order evacuation of those premises, and every good reason for doing so. And they seem to have done so with optimum efficiency and concern for safety.

caw
 

Gary

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
968
Reaction score
153
Location
East Texas
no. when serving a warrant, authorities are empowered to follow up on suspicion of additional crimes via probable cause.

Empowerment and common sense seldom go together when any government entity is involved.
 

Sarpedon

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
2,702
Reaction score
436
Location
Minnesota, USA
Oh come now. We are talking about an armed camp, and a hierarchical organization. You can't just send a few officers into an armed camp to intervene with a single family there. Why? because those officers' lives would be at risk.

And if a member of a group commits a crime, that doesn't necessarily implicate the entire group. But if the policy of a hierarchical organization is criminal, it DOES implicate the entire organization.

Jesus, would people come out of the woodwork to protect Enron like this? Or some mafia family? How many cults need to commit mass suicide, sexual abuse, and/or violence before you accept that cults are bad news and need to be watched? Guess what, there are lots of cults that aren't constantly harrassed by law enforcement. Because they don't pull this kind of shit. Why does a group that is peaceful and law abiding need to set up a fortified compound manned by armed guards in the middle of the friggin desert?
 

DWSTXS

Mr Mojo Risin...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
2,504
Reaction score
647
Location
Carrollton, TX
Website
www.pbase.com
and I guarantee you that probably EVERY law enforcement officer out there has had it drummed into their heads that they need to take EVERY precaution available to ensure that this does not turn into a Ruby Ridge or Branch Davidian fiasco.

I'm sure that they are being ultra careful.
 

Esopha

bam pow zap.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 31, 2007
Messages
12,665
Reaction score
2,629
Location
Magic America
no. when serving a warrant, authorities are empowered to follow up on suspicion of additional crimes via probable cause.

Actually, I think once they got the warrant and entered the compound they would be able to investigate even further under reasonable suspicion, which is a lower threshold than probable cause and was most likely what they used to detain the victims.

That said, people can't be arrested under reasonable suspicion, so it's doubtful that these 400 women and children were actually arrested (which has already been said).

Reasonable suspicion can be used in conjucture with probable cause and can be based on inference without violating the 4th Amendment.

So the police really haven't done anything wrong here, as far as I can see. And honestly, the freedom of religion does not in any circumstances allow breaking US law in the name of that religion. See Reynolds v. US here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._United_States

Sorry for jumping in on a technicality, but one of my major pet peeves is when people get the Constitution messed up, so I wanted to support Haskins here... carry on.
 

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
5,198
Reaction score
915
Location
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That said, people can't be arrested under reasonable suspicion, so it's doubtful that these 400 women and children were actually arrested (which has already been said).

Detention without arrest is limited to 2 days, right?
 

dgiharris

Disgruntled Scientist
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 24, 2006
Messages
6,735
Reaction score
1,833
Location
Limbo
I think I understand the core of the arguments against the search and siezure of the little girls. I believe the argument is that it is a slippery slope of abuse of power by the government.

The argument then splits into the particular. Did the Government have just cause? What action should the government have taken for this one little girl that may or may not exist?

To me, the question is a larger one. What is the duty of the government to its people? The reason why these cases bring such outrage has nothing to do with religion. Like someone stated earlier, I could care less if they were MOrmoms, baptists, or cement workers. The intentional subjugation of little girls and boys is deplorable.

But why? If these are a community of people that have chosen to live this way, then why should the government care? Why should we care? What harm is there in this type of life?

The answer to this question and my outrage I think can be found in the founding words of this country. The Declaration of Independence is the soul of this country and the precursor to the constitution.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...

The one saving grace of America is our belief that above all is, above the law, above government, is the INHERENT RIGHT OF MAN. It is this spirit that enabled us to rise above slavery, to move towards civil rights, and is the momentum that will eventually lead to equal rights for all (next up gay marriage).

Being born a human being in this country means you automatically have rights. Not just rights, INALIENABLE rights. Just becuase your parents want to sell you into slavery does not mean they get to do so.

These camps (independant of religious context) are so fundamentally against the soul of this country that it is a wonder how they are still in existence.

It is situations like these that are at the heart of Machiavelli politics. In a nutshell, Machiavelli proposed that in order for a state to serve the best interests of its people, it will sometimes have to act in an immoral way (usually against other states). This whole incident is an example of what a state must sometimes do.

I take the position that the phone call was fake. And you know what. I really don't care. It is the duty of the state to do what it needs to do (time to time) in order to best serve the interests of its people.

I equate this to a police officer not writting you a ticket as you rush your pregnant wife to the hospital. did you break the law by speeding? Yes. Did you get a ticket? No. Why? Common Sense and human decentcy.

The same applies in reverse to this example. The government needs a little bit of a 'pass' on this one. The suspicion of wrong doing (by the cult) is sooo strong I can smell it from California. As a society, if we can't give our government a wink wink nudge nudge pass on something this blatant, then we do not deserve the liberty and freedom that we have.

I simply refuse to put a technicality above the potential loss of liberty (and life) of little boys and girls.

But with all that said, the government did a decent enough CYA (cover your ass) job and has sufficient evidence and just cause for the actions it has taken.

Mel...
 
Last edited:

Esopha

bam pow zap.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 31, 2007
Messages
12,665
Reaction score
2,629
Location
Magic America
Detention without arrest is limited to 2 days, right?

I honestly have no idea.

If it is, then we have to assume they've all become wards of the state in the last five days or something, which I guess is possible.
 

Mr. Fix

Fixed on the future...
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 15, 2007
Messages
449
Reaction score
81
Location
I was born under a wanderin' star...
Website
www.myspace.com
Media hype will lead you perdition.

This is similar to the invasion of Iraq. Go in with made up evidence and look for real evidence.

The "victim" they're looking for supposodly made two telephone calls a week before the raid, claiming she married one Dale Barlow and had a child by him. However, this Barlow does not live in Texas, and, according to the New York Times, has not been in that state since 1977. He claims not to know this girl, and Texas has not sought his extradition.

The Media's claim to our invation of Iraq was WMD. The Administation claim was due to the UN resolution 1441 and not under any false pretext. You should try to do research on the facts instead of relying upon your pre-conceived notions and opinions.

The raid on the FLDS compound is based on investigation and not some knee-jerk reaction.
 
Last edited:

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
5,198
Reaction score
915
Location
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I equate this to a police officer not writting you a ticket as you rush your pregnant wife to the hospital. did you break the law by speeding? Yes. Did you get a ticket? No. Why? Common Sense and human decentcy.

The same applies in reverse to this example. The government needs a little bit of a 'pass' on this one.

This, I'm afraid, is what many here think. But it leads straight to totalitarianism.
 

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
5,198
Reaction score
915
Location
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Media's claim to our invation of Iraq was WMD. The Administation claim was due to the UN resolution 1441 and not under any false pretext. You should try to do research on the facts instead of relying upon your pre-conceived notions and opinions.

The raid on the FLDS compound is based on investigation and not some knee-jerk reaction.

The US wrangled its resolution based on manufactured and distorted evidence. An lo, there was no WFD--how embarrassing. The raid on the FLDS compound was based on a couple of phone calls that might have been pranks, but they were itching to go in, and ready to jump at any excuse. And lo, no 16 year old. The situations are perfectly comparable.
 

brittanimae

making a fresh start.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Aug 21, 2007
Messages
2,336
Reaction score
695
Location
plotting on another planet . . .
The same applies in reverse to this example. The government needs a little bit of a 'pass' on this one. The suspicion of wrong doing (by the cult) is sooo strong I can smell it from California. As a society, if we can't give our government a wink wink nudge nudge pass on something this blatant, then we do not deserve the liberty and freedom that we have.

Mel...

Awesome post Mel--I think you put into words what so many of us feel.

Only on this bit I have to comment that for a time during the 80s there was mass hysteria over suspected sexual abuse in daycares. A bunch of people were wrongfully convicted, but it took years for the truth to come out. Nobody wants preschoolers molested, but if we don't act with care and caution, we end up with some pretty bad consequences for innocent people.

Some of those kids being detained will say exactly what they think their questioners want to hear. If this situation is investigated with care, I hope that any resulting convictions will be based on truth, not supposition.
 

Sarpedon

Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
2,702
Reaction score
436
Location
Minnesota, USA
I am not for giving the government 'a pass'. I do not think that the government has exceeded its authority under the law in this case.

I for one am sick and tired of seeing religious groups 'get a pass' on crimes that would get any other group suppressed. I'm sick of religious leaders who think they are above the law. You are free to believe whatever you wish. You are not free to do whatever you want, whether you have a 'Mister' in front of your name, or whether its 'Father' or 'Yogi' or 'Doctor' or 'Prophet.'
 

Gary

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Messages
968
Reaction score
153
Location
East Texas
Jesus, would people come out of the woodwork to protect Enron like this? Or some mafia family?

If they rounded up every employee in the Enron headquarters, or half the population of some New Jersey neighborhoods, I hope we all would.
 

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you
Requiescat In Pace
Registered
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
20,006
Reaction score
5,352
Location
Going shopping with Soccer Mom and Bubastes for fu
The women and children have been placed in foster homes, not under arrest, pending invsitgation of their individual cases. Some of the young women (girls of about Sophie's age) are completely terrified, which is completely understandable. They are not being imprisoned against their will--they are being housed, fed, and counseled. The two people arrested are male. The rest are just victims. Might want to check out the realities of the situation before tarring this incident with a brush that wasn't used.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5684217.html

just sayin'...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.