The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

DaveKuzminski · Mar 14, 2005

Of course, their replies which appear to be automated are one reason why I came up with that guerilla idea. The object was to clog their email and it's no less legal than submitting Atlanta Nights. The difference was that every PA author would be sending one or two inquiries each day. That would then leave PA with one of two options. Either read and respond to them all, which could force them to hire more workers or delete them all (kind of like the saying, "Kill them all, let God sort them out.")

And no, I don't have any quibbles about suggesting or using the same weapons on PA that they've used on their authors. They want to play mail and email games, then the authors have a right to strike back, er, communicate with their publisher.

Still, I suppose this will be stricken as well since it brings up the same topic that was deleted earlier, but PA authors should look at how PA treats them and then respond with a deluge whenever possible until PA throws in the towel and releases them.

aka eraser · Mar 14, 2005

Dave, the way you described it in the post Victoria (rightly, I believe) nuked, was more nefarious than the one above.

Setting up dummy accounts simply to hector PA could constitute harassment. They would not be difficult to trace and ultimately, you and AW could be fingered as instigators. Whether that would hold any weight in a court of law (almost) doesn't matter. You'd be handing PA a PR coup. They could say to the troops "See how badly we've rattled the old-guard publishers and the bashers? They've resorted to harassment because their arguments have failed."

We need to stake out and maintain the high road; fight deception and lies with honour and truth. It's tempting as heck to just want to shove a spike in their tires but I think it would hurt us more than them.

Patricia · Mar 14, 2005

aka eraser said:
We need to stake out and maintain the high road; fight deception and lies with honour and truth. It's tempting as heck to just want to shove a spike in their tires but I think it would hurt us more than them.

I agree. We should always pursue our quest against the fraud pros by using intelligent and informed methods. Resorting to their tactics will only put us on the same level and diminish our integrity in the eyes of the authors and general public that comes across our commentaries

I feel that “backfire” is not the answer in this case. Putting them out of business with cold facts is what will work; nothing else.

Jaws · Mar 14, 2005

Just a couple of quick notes, then it's time to deal with the remoras:

One cannot dedicate a piece irrevocably to the public domain. Period. Since the 01 April 1989, when the "marking" requirement ended, the only ways to definitively force a work into the public domain have been to fail of renewal (which would have ceased to be a concern on 31 December of this year anyway, and was made optional in 1992) or to have the term expire. Period. The Creative Commons License, contrary to popular belief, doesn't do it. Neither does a declaration that a work is in the public domain. Yes, this is a loophole; yes, it is the result of hiring lawyers to draft something that should be clear instead of obscure; no, it probably can't be fixed under the terms of the Berne Convention.
Reph's inference that it's just not worth it to copyright holders to go after song-lyrics sites is probably the best way to look at it. Those sites are clearly infringements of the songwriters' copyrights (which, one should note, are not at all the same thing as the performers' copyrights, even when the performer is also the songwriter…). If, however, you ever get a letter from the Harry Fox Agency, that's almost certainly what it will concern. (The Harry Fox Agency is captive to ASCAP, and is frequently used to go after alleged infringers on behalf of songwriters.)
The whole "sale price" debate is amusing. Although PA may not want to acknowledge it, and the publishing industry itself hasn't agreed upon it, "sale price" does have a meaning in contract law… and, whatever else it is (it is extremely technical and varies based upon what is being sold), it does not mean "net proceeds" (another technical term).

SeanDSchaffer · Mar 14, 2005

lindylou45 said:
You will get an email telling you that any further correspondence from you will be discarded unread.

Yeah, Linda, you're probably right. In any case, I've let them know. And even if they don't do anything about it right away, the book'll be mine again soon enough.

reph · Mar 14, 2005

Jaws said:
Reph's inference that it's just not worth it to copyright holders to go after song-lyrics sites is probably the best way to look at it.

For the record, that was Nicole LeBoeuf's inference.

Galoot · Mar 14, 2005

Ed Williams said:
Some info off the PA "Travis Tea" thread...
...as we all know that it is going to go prancing off the PA boards at any time...

Gosh, Ed. Which Travis Tea thread is that? This one or this one?

(They're both still up as I write this.)

Looks like someone's posting the same links to multiple boards. Looks like someone is a-gonna be banned.

Diana Hignutt · Mar 15, 2005

Born to Bash...

AnneMarble said:
If Ambrose Bierce were alive today, his Devil's Dictionary would include the following definition:

BASHER, n
Someone who volunteers his free time to try to help his fellow writers avoid being taken for a ride and thus having their dreams shattered, albeit knowing that the very people he is trying to help may see him as a demon who is killing dreams.

I'm proud to be a basher!

PublishAmerica authors: We are trying to help you. Do you think we have nothing better to do? Do you really believe that we're jealous of you? Come on, search your feelings, you know this be be true...

diana

cwgranny · Mar 15, 2005

They already have a plan for this

DaveKuzminski said:
Either read and respond to them all, which could force them to hire more workers or delete them all (kind of like the saying, "Kill them all, let God sort them out.")

All along, reading their message board gives me the impression that when PA gets overwhelmed with mail (which happens even without conscious intent), they simply delete them all and claim they didn't get them (or that they already answered them) when authors appear on the message board complaining of unanswered mail. Otherwise, the inability to handle their own email accounts is a serious problem among PA authors.

So, PA would delete all the email without batting an eye. Authors are already conditioned NOT to expect an email response so if they delete a day's worth, two days, a week -- that just leaves them more time for other things. I suspect everyone wears many hats there so deleting all the email wouldn't big such a big deal. Sure, they would miss some submissions, but they haven't slowed enough to make a day or two a big deal (and it would allow PA to claim to be even more selective -- "There have been times during the submission review process that we didn't find a single manuscript that we felt was ready for publication!"

You'd probably impress them more if you rolled the townhouse.

gran

Ed Williams · Mar 15, 2005

Well....

cwgranny said:
You'd probably impress them more if you rolled the townhouse.

gran

...Gran, do you think we should all prance around it as we roll it???

P.S. By the way, I just noticed that this thread has over 100,000 page views. Think about it, 100,000 plus page views!

Ed Williams · Mar 15, 2005

From the great and mighty Land of Poz...

....we find the following, which is both sad and revealing all at the same time. This involves a PA author trying to get a bookstore to stock their book:

I walked in and said hello to the clerk. She was a great Hungarian grandmother as I recognized her voice. Once she knew my purpose of being there, she said, wow, not long ago the author of Kite Runner was here and he started to become famous after he stopped by our shop. Soon the manager showed up.
He showed negative reaction to POD but i told him at PA authors do not pay and PA would not accept any book which is not marketable.
He then found another excuse. He said "this book is too thin and has no spline" I said ok, i will make my second one with spline.
Then he said i would have to order my own books for book signing. I said fine.
Then he said : You have to advertise your booksigning event" I said fine.
I insisted on dispalying my book, he put it on the shelf and without spline, he proved that it was harder sell. I said: ok, you can read my book, then if you think it is worth you can call PA and order.
He agreed.
I can tell you that I had read his face the moment he showed up.
Some people are just negative, but never give up.

PA authors, why subject yourself to this type thing? Even if the bookstore manager agrees to stock a few copies, you've simply stocked a few copies. If they don't move the bookstore manager won't reorder, and they may not reorder anyway because they can order other books much more easily and make much more money off them. PA is not in the business of catering to bookstores, their sole reason for existence is to sell books to their own authors. Think it was an accident when your own president, Larry Clopper, wouldn't quote what percentage of books PA authors buy for themselves? He knew if he gave out the true number that he would be confirming PA as a POD vanity press, pure and simple.

There's a good reason why your royalty checks are tiny, and why bookstore placements are so hard. The industry not only regards PA as a POD vanity press, but as a bottom feeding one. Their ethics and business practices are deplorable, and that's me being kind about it. The recent literary festival I attended was ripe with conversation about PA, and believe me, none of it was good. The great and mighty pirate ship is listing, the hull is full of holes, and the future is not a bright one at all. Think about it, things could be a lot different, y'all could come over here and start working towards a much more rewarding publishing career today....

DaveKuzminski · Mar 15, 2005

Knowing that PA will just delete whatever's in their email when it gets too heavy should be looked at in the light that it might save some author from being "accepted" as a victim. All I'm trying to point out is that PA has weaknesses and too much of something is one of those weaknesses because they're trying to do everything on the cheap so they can make more profit.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with submitting manuscripts to them that make even less sense than Atlanta Nights or The Purple Pony. After all, if PA threatens the submittor, the perfect defense is that PA should have read the entire work before accepting it. Then if PA sends a rent-a-cop (or should that be bribe-a-cop?), just get the badge number and turn over the illegal harrassment to the local authorities and the media. Let them have a field day with a business that tries to get others to do its dirty work instead of meeting you in court. We all know that one of the biggest obstacles we've faced is getting PA in court because they only attack authors who can't afford the price of arbitration or a lawyer for a civil suit.

However, what we all know will happen is that PA will then send an email stating that they're terminating the contract. Cost of emails to the author? A few minutes to write those. Cost of manuscript to the author? A few more minutes of cut and paste from a trunk novel. Cost of embarrassment to PA? Priceless, as the saying goes.

And for PA authors who don't believe that PA accepts almost everything, try this for yourselves. Send PA a manuscript you know is absolutely worthless and should never be published. If they send you an acceptance, that should tell you something important immediately. And if they reject it, don't believe that means they really read it. PA has already admitted that they don't read through everything they receive. Instead, it usually means they couldn't handle anything more that week. So, try them again the next week.

realitychuck · Mar 15, 2005

HB Marcus said:
Ridicule is a defense mechanism, normally reserved for young children or the feeble-minded.

So is that why you ridicule the PA "bashers"? Just asking.

DaveKuzminski · Mar 15, 2005

Actually, ridicule is among the most effective weapons against the unjust and cruel because it's one of the things they can least stand. It's in their nature to seek respect. Ridicule is obviously the opposite of that. Why else would PA constantly respond with remarks about taking that tone with them?

Why? Because Larry, Willem, and Miranda simply can't stand anything that isn't respectful. They want people in awe of them. They need homage from the masses that they're great. That's why they're always pointing out how those thousands of authors are happy.

When enough of those happy voices are heard on the other side ridiculing Larry, Willem, Miranda, and PA, that's when PA will crumble. So, get out there and encourage every dissatisfied PA and former PA author to sign petitions, urge their local media to splash the truth about PA on their pages and screens, and keep up the pressure on local, state, and federal authorities to take action against Larry, Willem, Miranda, and PA.

At the same time, ask those writers to share their information with us. That way we can expose more of PA to protect others. We need to know how many of their own books they each bought in order to disprove more of PA's claims.

Ed Williams · Mar 15, 2005

Uncle Jim, this is off the PA boards...

...and you know a whole lot more about these matters than I - please read this quote and give me your thoughts:

Don't be thrown by our book pricing. There's an old adage in the publishing business that goes something like this: "If a book won't sell for $24.95, it won't sell for $14.95."

I think what that means is, if you have written a good book, the price doesn't matter that much. If you have a bad book, it won't sell for any price.

I've never heard that before, but maybe it's because I just haven't heard that before!

Thread is here: http://www.publishamerica.com/cgi-bin/pamessageboard/data/general/2169.htm

James D. Macdonald · Mar 15, 2005

I think that low-level harrassment is counterproductive, especially if what we want to do is decrease the pool of victims.

On the other hand, I could certainly do with a good prance.

("Shall We Prance" from The Fink and I)

Shall we prance? Shall we prance?
With a POD that's not a POD?
Shall we prance? Shall we prance?
Or shall we take that tone that cannot be?
At first glance
They said that they would never charge a fee.
Now we find that we've been played
So we start our escapade
When we awaken from their trance.
'Though they try their weird psychology
They won't get a meek apology,
Shall we prance? Shall we prance? Shall we prance?

("I Could Have Pranced All Night" from My Fair Willem)

I could have pranced all night
I could have pranced all night
And still have pranced some more!
I could have sold my books
But they were held by crooks
Who'd ne'er sold books before.
All the time I paid for prime promotion,
Until one day I saw the light
Suffice it to say,
That when I felt that way,
I could have pranced, pranced, pranced all night!

UPDATE

"If a book won't sell for $24.95, it won't sell for $14.95."

Nope, never heard that "adage." It isn't true in any case. (If publishers could sell the books they currently list at $15 for $25, they'd already be doing it. When you see the average price of an adult trade paperback, you have to understand that it's already all that the traffic will bear. Do you really think the publishers sit around in their offices saying "We could sell this at $15, or we could sell just as many at $25. I know, let's kick our profits in the pants! Let's undersell ourselves!"? Come on, guys, use some common sense. Publishers aren't noticably stupider than other folks (except for their inexplicable folly in rejecting your manuscript).)

What is true: "If a book won't sell for $14.95, it won't sell for $24.95."

T42 · Mar 15, 2005

pa board

Galoot said:
Gosh, Ed. Which Travis Tea thread is that? This one or this one? (They're both still up as I write this.)

Looks like someone's posting the same links to multiple boards. Looks like someone is a-gonna be banned.

It looks like only one board is up now and on the other board whatever they said about Travis tea has been deleted unless I’m so feeble I can’t see in front of “me own eyes”. I’m wondering if my friend posted it as when I emailed him yesterday I asked him if he had ever heard of Atlanta Nights and Travis Tea. I told him to look it up and draw his own conclusions…. He has lot’s of spunk so he may be causing some problems for pa :banana:

realitychuck · Mar 15, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
What is true: "If a book won't sell for $14.95, it won't sell for $24.95."

Unless books are the only commodity where the laws of economics don't apply, of course the price makes a difference. I don't care what you're selling -- if you can sell it for less, it's always an advantage (if not, how is Wal-Mart surviving?).

T42 · Mar 15, 2005

La...la...la

James you sound wonderful! I didn’t know you could sing as well as write and be a lawyer all in one breath…oh the talent…. :Guitar:

Gravity · Mar 15, 2005

T42 said:
James you sound wonderful! I didn’t know you could sing as well as write and be a lawyer all in one breath…oh the talent….

Uncle Jim isn't a lawyer, nor does he play one onTV (although he does look a bit like the late Jeff Smith, The Frugal Gourmet). What he is, though, is insanely smart about the publishing biz, and an all-around good egg.

Sher2 · Mar 15, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
And still have pranced some more!
I could have sold my books
But they were held by crooks
Who'd ne'er sold books before.
All the time I paid for prime promotion,
Until one day I saw the light
Suffice it to say,
That when I felt that way,
I could have pranced, pranced, pranced all night!

Listen, I'm trying to work here and now I can't stop singing. :roll:

T42 · Mar 15, 2005

What?

Gravity said:
Uncle Jim isn't a lawyer, nor does he play one onTV (although he does look a bit like the late Jeff Smith, The Frugal Gourmet). What he is, though, is insanely smart about the publishing biz, and an all-around good egg.

DO NOT TAKE THAT TONE WITH ME! I WILL EXPECT AN IMMEDIATE APOLOGY!

Why would you want to dash my dreams? Why won’t you let me call Uncle Jim a lawyer? If I want to think he is a lawyer why must you burst my bubble? If I want to think I am a published author, why must you burst my bubble? Why won’t you let me live in my denial in peace? Now look what you’ve done! You have made me completely TONE DEAF! :Headbang:

ByGrace · Mar 15, 2005

Acceptance

A couple of the posters mentioned the Authors Guild not accepting authors published through Publish America. A friend of mine had her first romance novel published through PA. She was allowed to join the Washington Romance Writers group. However, they would not allow her to participate in any book signing events. She could attend their meetings, go to the conventions, but no signings.

In total she sold about three copies of her book. Finally, after having enough, she sent a certified letter requesting a release. She never heard back. She emailed author support and they told her that they did not deliver the letter to the person addressed, because she had not gone through the 'proper channels' that she was supposed to go through them first. She fumed, believe me, and told them that their action was illegal.

She went ahead and sent them a formal request for release sighting that her book had not sold. They granted it, and she is free now. She is rewriting her book along with a sequel, and plans to send it to agents she has met through RWA.

So the Authors Guild is just one place PA authors are being denied. It is sad for the authors. I think there are some very talented writers whose books are published through PA.

WhisperingBard · Mar 15, 2005

("I Could Have Pranced All Night" from My Fair Willem)

Ahh, yes, one of my all-time favorite shows. Right up there with Phantom of the Publisher and Rats.

Sher2 · Mar 15, 2005

Ed Williams said:
...Gran, do you think we should all prance around it as we roll it???

While prancing is fun, I suspect rolling would be way more fun. :tongue

The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Preditors & Editors

Fish Whisperer

California Dreaming

Apex Predator

SeanDSchaffer

Fig of authority

I am a pretty pretty flower

Very Tired

Preditors & Editors

Hack Writer

Preditors & Editors

Your Genial Uncle

Herb Lady

Hack Writer

Herb Lady

Seen 'em come, seen 'em go

Auroraless ExPAtriate

Herb Lady

Wary...and weary

Auroraless ExPAtriate