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Big Bang simulated in metamaterial shows time travel is impossible

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Smileycat

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He wouldn't miss any if he really came back from the future. His prediction of a civil war in America that would start in 2004 and build through 2015, for instance. Total rubbish, hasn't happened. If he lived it already, he could not possibly be mistaken. So just based on that one, he's a fraud. The rest really don't matter after a doozy like that, do they?

Even a time-traveler with a crap memory wouldn't remember a civil war that lasted 11 years that didn't happen. :p


Shelley

Hi, Shelly. I agree with kuwisdelu on this.
 

kuwisdelu

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Sources? (Want to see exactly what you mean.)

According to special relativity, time dilation occurs between two reference frames that are traveling at relativistic speeds with respect to each other. (I.e., going really, really fast.) If you go fast enough, locally, time will slow down, meaning if you go fast enough, you can essentially travel to the future.

The Hafele-Keating experiment from 1972 showed this effect by putting atomic clocks on jets and flying them in opposite directions around the Earth, and then comparing their times to a control atomic clock on the ground. Naturally, because we're only capable of going so fast, the effect is only traveling a few nanoseconds into the "future," but there was a noticeable and measurable effect that — within the limits of measurement error — agreed with the theory. This is a repeatable experiment.


Some say 4th dimension, while others say each different universe is a different dimension, because they may actually occupy the same space. So if the idea of a multiverse means, everything is happening now, just in a different dimension, maybe we should go back to the Vedic way of thinking. They have always believed in a multiverse - http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vida_alien/vidaalien_signtimes08a.htm. As far as your statement that " We are indeed capable of traveling forward in time at different rates," I will need to see some examples, please.

Eh, this confusion is mainly the result of different interpretations of the word dimension. A dimension is basically just another coordinate orthogonal to any of your any previous dimensions. However you want to interpret it, time is nothing more than a fourth dimension as far as coordinate systems go, because as far as humans are concerned, I only need four coordinates to describe any even uniquely (after I define a frame of reference, anyway): three in space and one in time.

By the way, if you read that page you linked, the time dilation equation for how time can pass at different rates depending on your reference frame is described about a quarter way down the page.

I don't much like the term "multiverse" since it gets confounded by a lot of people spouting nonsense, but I don't have a problem with the many-worlds interpretation of the collapse of the Schrodinger equation.

Basically, the idea is that the any quantum system is indeterminate until it's measured, and exists in a superposition of multiple states. Something can be alive and dead, or in two places at once, described by a probability distribution, but the actual state isn't determined until it's measured. The indeterminate nature of quantum states until they're measured is also a repeatable experiment. (Google the quantum version of Young's double slit experiment.)

The most widely-accepted interpretation of this probabilistic nature of quantum systems is to take them at face value: they're probability distributions. Just like you don't know whether a coin will land heads or tails until it's landed, you don't know whether a quantum system is in a certain state or not until it's measured. That's sort of the gist of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics.

The many-worlds interpretation instead postulates that each possible outcome corresponds to a different universe. This is kind of neat, and since there's no real way of knowing what interpretation is correct yet, I don't have a problem with it. However, lots of people misinterpret it, and believe this means that there's a universe for every possible outcome of the world, history, etc. This isn't true, because the interpretation only applies to quantum systems, and something as complex as, say, the neurochemical interactions in the brain to make a decision, aren't quantum systems. So there isn't going to be a separate universe for every decision you might make, etc.

None of that means "everything is happening now," though, even if the many-worlds interpretation is true. It just means (if it's true) there's a difference universe for each state of a quantum system. You would still have to travel among them linearly, in effect, through time. It would just mean you would have different, branching paths to choose from instead of one path. All of that's a big "if."


Some say that, but how do we truly know that? There is no evidence or proof. No repeatable experiment to accumulate data for the scientific method, which is required by science.

You're right, we don't have any tests for that particular part of the theory, since we don't have nearly enough energy to attempt it. However, it's a mathematical consequence of the rest of special relativity, and we have mountains of data that supports the parts of the theory we can test. That gives strong evidence that the rest of the theory is likely correct as well.


As third dimensional beings, we measure everything using materials of our dimension.

As sarcastic as it may have seemed, Dr Zoidberg was right. We're fourth dimensional beings at least, not third dimensional, because we do travel through time; we just have little control over the rate, and, for the time being, no control over the direction. Though I'm not sure what you're point is here. "The human experience" doesn't really fall neatly into any particular dimension or anything, and isn't really an accurate tool for measuring anything.

On a final note, if we consider the geometry of time like we consider the geometry of space, we could, perhaps, think of time as having a nearly infinite slope. Like a very steep mountain, it's almost impossible to do anything but slide down in one direction. It's been a while since I last did any tensor calculus or dealt with geodesics, but we know from general relativity that things like mass and energy can affect the the geometry of space-time. If time has a constant but nearly-infinite gradient in the direction of the future, it makes sense that all we need to do is find enough energy to alter the local geometry enough to result in a negative gradient for time, toward the past. Which would be consistent with the fact that any world line with a slope less than the speed of light in special relativity is effectively traveling back through time, but doing so would require an infinite amount of energy.

We'd need a lot of energy, of course.

(ETA: Forgive me, real physicists, for where I've screwed up. Like I said, it's been a few years.)
 
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Diana Hignutt

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Time is an abstraction, an illusion to make sense of the world around us. Yes, time travel is possible. Look for evidence in my WIP, after it's finished and pubbed, of course.
 

Torgo

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Read an interesting pop-science book once called How to Build a Time Machine which suggested that you could effectively travel in time using our old friends wormholes. Please bear with me as, off the top of my head, I mangle the facts horribly.

The difficulty is that you need a colossal amount of energy to get one to open and then you need to keep it open using exotic matter - that is, stuff that has weird properties like negative mass. And then you probably wouldn't be able to open it wide enough to do anything useful with. (Something in my head is saying "The Casimir Effect", which just sounds really cool - negative energy, or something. It maybe involves rotating mirrors?)

But as far as I remember it has something to do with having two ends of this wormhole, and then shooting one of the ends off at relativistic speeds so it ends up a long, long way away. You could then in theory step through the wormhole and end up instantly at the other side. And somehow this means we can travel in time, because of relativity and junk.

It does solve the "why haven't we met any time travellers" issue, though, because under this theory you can only travel back in time to when you opened the first wormhole. So it's possible we could do this and then suddenly all kinds of people would pile out of it clutching future editions of the Racing Post or something.

Please may I have my PhD now? kthxbai.
 

Vince524

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I hope time travel is possible. Then maybe I could get back the 10 minutes I spent trying to understand what the H E Double Hockey Sticks everyone in this thread was saying.
 

MattW

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"Death is but a window, time is but a door."

- Vigo the Carpathian, the Cruel, the Torturer, the Despised
 

Rufus Coppertop

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Really, I'm going to wait until an actual physicst shows up in this thread before I think much more. I just don't have the grounding to say anything more than hobbdlygobbldy and flim flam.



And I was seriously about to ask you about Lorentz transformations and causality and superluminal stuff! :rant:
 

Diana Hignutt

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There are those that say, once the first time machine is invented, every timetraveller who ever entered a machine in the future will come walking out, one after another ad infinitum.
 

shelleyo

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Well you have to consider that merely existing in a time you don't belong could have unforeseen effects that could result in massive changes in the timeline.

I understand what you're saying, and at the same time I've never understood it, if that makes sense.

If his arrival and presence here changed the timeline, a timeline in which he still exists as a future self, then that "him" would not have ever experienced the war either, because it did not happen and so he could not have experienced it.

I can never wrap my head around the paradox of that, and that leads me to believe that time travel isn't possible, not in any way we can understand.

I mean, I still think he's full of crap. Just saying.

Regardless of the science, yes. After reading about him a bit, I'm confident he's either delusional or an intentional fraud. Probably the latter.

Shelley
 

muravyets

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Read an interesting pop-science book once called How to Build a Time Machine which suggested that you could effectively travel in time using our old friends wormholes. Please bear with me as, off the top of my head, I mangle the facts horribly.

The difficulty is that you need a colossal amount of energy to get one to open and then you need to keep it open using exotic matter - that is, stuff that has weird properties like negative mass. And then you probably wouldn't be able to open it wide enough to do anything useful with. (Something in my head is saying "The Casimir Effect", which just sounds really cool - negative energy, or something. It maybe involves rotating mirrors?)

But as far as I remember it has something to do with having two ends of this wormhole, and then shooting one of the ends off at relativistic speeds so it ends up a long, long way away. You could then in theory step through the wormhole and end up instantly at the other side. And somehow this means we can travel in time, because of relativity and junk.

It does solve the "why haven't we met any time travellers" issue, though, because under this theory you can only travel back in time to when you opened the first wormhole. So it's possible we could do this and then suddenly all kinds of people would pile out of it clutching future editions of the Racing Post or something.

Please may I have my PhD now? kthxbai.
I so desperately want this to be a verbatim quote of the actual paper. :D

There are those that say, once the first time machine is invented, every timetraveller who ever entered a machine in the future will come walking out, one after another ad infinitum.
Oh, gods, then under no circumstances let anyone invent the damned thing.
 

Williebee

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MOD NOTE: I can't do travel through time, (except for of the one second = one second variety), but I can do travel through space.

Aaaaaand, here we are. :)

Critical Theory

(Yeah, I know the thread was started from a new article. But, as opposed to current events, the discussion is critical thinking about possible events, past and present. SO...)

Thanks, all. Sorry about any turbulence.
-- Williebee
 

tarcanus

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time machine. I accidentally created a



Oh man, did I just ruin all of this threads theories with that? Sorry guys :'(
 

BunnyMaz

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Well, given that the article itself ends with "but it turned out their idea for time travel wouldn't work because of X so we can't afterall", I'd say we're still safe re; time travel.

Speaking as a sort-of physicist (quit degree close to the end due to poverty) who still doesn't fully grasp all this quantum strings crap.

At first, the researchers thought that, if they could build a metamaterial in which light could move in a circle (and so that its mathematical description were identical to particles moving through spacetime), then they could create CTCs.
But when further analyzing the situation, they found restrictions on how light rays could move in the model. Although certain rays could return to their starting points, they would not perceive the correct timelike dimension. In contrast, rays that do perceive this timelike dimension cannot move in circles. The researchers concluded that Nature seems to resist the creation of CTCs, and that time travel - at least in this model - is impossible.
 

kuwisdelu

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Speaking as a sort-of physicist (quit degree close to the end due to poverty) who still doesn't fully grasp all this quantum strings crap.

Not everyone buys string theory anyway, nor do I think it has much to do with time travel. String theorists have had a couple decades to do something interesting, and, IMO, they've failed.

Anyway, if we're just speculating now, I'm out.
 

small axe

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Any "evidence" would probably only "show" whatever one result we see after the collapse of an infinite number of multiverse quantuum possibilities.

Avoiding theology (because those threads inevitably turn ugly, and then everyone gets erased because a few misbehave) we can imagine a multiverse where everything that can happen, does happen, and happens "simultaneously" and regardless of Time or Space or Cause and Effect.

"Free will" could still then be exercised even though "everything is already determined" ... because we might be choosing our trajectory or path (while not choosing a specific outcome).

God or a time-traveller or whatever would be "changeless" if they were transcendent of all the specific Possibilities via being or moving between ALL possibilities.

Omniscient, omnipresent may or may not be Almighty, since being the first two might cause one to be indifferent to being the last.

If we wish to experience and explore ALL ... then there is little reason to select or de-select, cause or prevent any specific reality (that would be denying the ALLness)

There, I just started a New Religion: send me Money and Nookie! :D (But respecting the ALL, I also understand why there may be some unfortunate reality where you fail to send me my rightful Money and Nookie. Rats.

okay, don't send me rats ... I specifically renounce the reality where folks send me rats as a sign of cultic devotion. :Sun:
 

Smileycat

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kuwisdelu -

I owe you a post, but I don't want to take the short way out. I have limited time, so I'll get back to you when I have more time. Basically, I think we misunderstand where each other is coming from. See you later, okay?
 

Nick Blaze

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If time travel was possible and we stumbled upon it, World War III would be upon us. And, the best part of that, is that we could go back in time to try to make it so that WWIII didn't happen! Fancy that.
 

Skyler

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I'm one of the few that believes the past is fixed. That doesn't mean you can't travel back in time, it just means that doing so won't change anything because everything you do in the past has already happened.

Somewhat unsurprisingly I also believe in "divine determinism." I'm one of those Calvinist creeps that believes in both choice and predestination. :evil

With respect to the linked article's conclusions in particular, it's worth noting that the argument assumes that the mathematics of electromagnetic spaces and general relativity are parallel. It doesn't address the fact that general relativity only describes the universe on large scales (quantum mechanics being needed to describe the universe on small scales), and it's not immediately clear how much of an effect (if any) that omission would have on the results of the experiment.

I will look over the article on arXiv at some point, that may have more details than the summary on physorg.com. I don't know yet.

The question about what difference it would make if there was no Big Bang is interesting. For one thing, the passage in Revelations (and, I think, the rest of the Bible) teaches that God is eternal--He has no beginning, no end, and essentially is "outside time." That doesn't hold for the rest of the universe, which had a definite beginning and will have a definite ending.

The question of whether or not there was a "Big Bang" is kind of a moot one. We know that the universe came into existence at some point. (There are a vast array of scientific evidences and philosophical proofs of this fact.) The real question is what happened--and even that isn't as big of a question as it may seem.

The mathematical models of the Big Bang are based largely upon extrapolations from our universe as it exists now, so whether or not it accurately describes what happened in the past (which is a discussion I don't think we need to go into here), it should correlate to reality today. Therefore, experiments conducted on the basis of those mathematical models should produce valid conclusions, assuming their other premises are valid as well.

I think the last line of the physorg.com article is key here:

The researchers concluded that Nature seems to resist the creation of CTCs, and that time travel - at least in this model - is impossible.
 

Pistol Whipped Bee

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I wouldn't jump so fast on the bandwagon spray painted "We already know time travel is impossible."

No one can explain deja-vu. Everytime scientists think they know something some 14 year old nerdy twerp (You guys are way cool) comes along and blows everyone out of the water. We don't even understand ourselves. Our adacity at thinking we can KNOW anything about something so much bigger than us is laughable.
 

whistlelock

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Well, John Titor says he was from our future. Lots of people don't believe he was genuine, while others swear his predictions were on the money. He may have hit the mark on some, but he also missed quite a few so far. So, I don't know that I believe him. Have you heard of him? (See http://www.johntitor.com/)

titor is a con man. and crazy.

if I came from the future I'd have a way better website. and a lot more money because I'd know about the GREATEST ECONOMIC COLLAPSE since the Great Depression, and know which stocks to buy and when to sell.
 

Satori1977

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Well, John Titor says he was from our future. Lots of people don't believe he was genuine, while others swear his predictions were on the money. He may have hit the mark on some, but he also missed quite a few so far. So, I don't know that I believe him. Have you heard of him? (See http://www.johntitor.com/)

I don't know/understand enough about physics to comment on most of this thread. But this website is a bunch of BS. First of all, when was the last time it was even updated. I see "predictions" from 2001 and 2004. And nothing I read ever came to pass. So we are in the middle of a huge civil war right now? Russia has attacked us? Where have I been??
 
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