Lack of diversity in fantasy novels

I may feel great if I'm in the "approved" group of hero role-models. I may not feel that there's a problem if we keep reinforcing that stereotype. But a little thinking shows me that yes, it is problematic.

A more subtle but just as problematic magic system, for me, is one that gives women power, but ties it into virginity somehow.

So, a woman can be a powerful witch as long as she's a virgin. Next thing you know, there'll be a mention of someone who's "broken", and unable to do magic any longer, because she was raped.

Or a woman will be an even stronger witch after she loses her virginity to the right man. Even if she's a lesbian, it doesn't matter; she needs to lie back, think of her world, and let the correct penis take her to the pinnacle of power. Naturally, in this world as well, rape = loss of power.

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Loss of power or change of life direction? I don't think powers are what makes a person great necessarily, so if she managed to find a new purpose that was fulfilling despite turmoil and losing all her power, I wouldn't find that premise offensive.

If it was just a matter of her losing her powers due to rape and then getting it back from being sexed by the right man after considering herself now worthless, then that's offensive and on top of that she's being very passive, in her worth being taken away and returned by men.

Handmaiden said:

Loss of power or change of life direction? I don't think powers are what makes a person great necessarily, so if she managed to find a new purpose that was fulfilling despite turmoil and losing all her power, I wouldn't find that premise offensive.

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I don't think powers are the defining point of a person either, but these fantasy novels are not usually about a woman who loses her power due to rape, and goes on from there to build a strong and satisfying life without magic.

Alli B. said:

I wasn't nullifying anyone's feelings. I felt a certain way and I still do. That doesn't mean I am discrediting anyone else, but I most certainly believe that stating MY opinion as a "minority" in several ways is AMOUNG the variety of feelings and opinions, and I'm asking that my opinion be acknowledged just as much as the people that are outraged by a lack of diversity.

Should my opinion be moot just because it's not in favor of the argument?

I'm just saying I love fantasy. I love stories told in medeval settings, and I expect the characters to follow the setting.

If I read a Japanese folktale, I'd expect a Japanese hero.

If I read a spinoff of Alexander the Great, I expect a gay hero.

But honestly, Japanese, white, gay... None of it matters to me. Why? Because I bet I have more similarities to connect to the character than differences.

For a thread talking about differences there are some who aren't very open to different opinions. Strange, eh?

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When your opinion is based on colorblind thinking, then I am going to call bullshit. And the argument that Oh, it doesn't matter because there will always be similarities between me and the MC? Yea, try explaining that to kids who grow up believing they can't be heroes or heroines because they never see people like them represented in popular media.

As for having no PoC or QUILTBAG or disabled characters in medieval setting, there are more than enough posts here showing why that's not true. Your view of medieval cities being all white people is based on false argument.

I'm cis and white. I have no problems reading stories with cis white protagonists.

But I *also* want to read stories with non-white and non-cis protagonists. And more than that, I want to read stories *by* non-white and non-cis authors because their view of the world is from a different perspective than mine; and I want to read stories from all those beautiful, ugly, quirky, rich, breathtaking, mundane, ancient, shallow, every-day perspectives that I can't live myself.

Above and beyond me, I have heard those stories of children and adults hungering for stories about people like them. Stories where people who live their kind of life are heroes and problem solvers and central. For that reason alone I'd want to see more diverse books.

ULTRAGOTHA said:

I'm cis and white. I have no problems reading stories with cis white protagonists.

But I *also* want to read stories with non-white and non-cis protagonists. And more than that, I want to read stories *by* non-white and non-cis authors because their view of the world is from a different perspective than mine; and I want to read stories from all those beautiful, ugly, quirky, rich, breathtaking, mundane, ancient, shallow, every-day perspectives that I can't live myself.

Above and beyond me, I have heard those stories of children and adults hungering for stories about people like them. Stories where people who live their kind of life are heroes and problem solvers and central. For that reason alone I'd want to see more diverse books.

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You make a very good point here that I think some people are missing. It isn't that all books with white cis-het protags or casts are the same, but that there's other viewpoints you can't explore effectively by only writing about them. That is unless they're young adults being raised by characters who aren't white or cis-het, and even then it isn't the same.

ULTRAGOTHA said:

Above and beyond me, I have heard those stories of children and adults hungering for stories about people like them. Stories where people who live their kind of life are heroes and problem solvers and central. For that reason alone I'd want to see more diverse books.

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This is an important point, and I honestly don't understand why it engenders so much hostility (from a relatively small number of people, but they're often quite outspoken) or scorn/dismissal (from a larger number of people). Invisibility hurts, and by the time kids grow up, many of them really do believe there's a reason there are so few stories with people like them as heroes.

My heart broke a little the other day when a writer I admire (who is finishing a long series with two male protags) asked in her blog which gender her readers (most of whom are women) preferred. Well over half said they preferred reading about men. Now there's probably a selection effect here, since the books had male characters (and so would attract women who were at least somewhat receptive to reading about guys). But the heartbreaking part was the reason so many of these women gave. "Women aren't that interesting to me," or "Female characters are annoying" or "Female characters are so shallow."

It's pretty clear that a lot of women have been conditioned to believe that their own gender can't be strong or relatable enough characters to star in their own stories (or maybe a long string of badly written female characters has "taught" them that other women are annoying, shallow, boring etc.)

I'm guessing that this might be an issue for some PoC and QUILTBAG and disabled people too. The disinterest, even dislike, some end up feeling for characters (and maybe real-life people like themselves) is a huge problem, and it's circular.

Respect Your Fellow Writer.

This thread has slipped off the rails on that point here and there. Not Respecting Your Fellow Writer is not tolerated on Absolute Write.

RosyWriter said:

what does ryfw mean?

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Respect Your Fellow Writer. It's one of the big rules.

EDIT: damn it.

Snap!

ULTRAGOTHA said:

Snap!

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Motherfucker.

ViridianChick said:

Motherfucker.

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See, RosyWriter? Respect Your Fellow Writer in action!

So, this weekend I was at a local SF/F multi-fandom convention. The last panel I was on was meant to talk about writing descriptions using all our senses. Which was cool. About the first half was lively and informative.

And then one of the audience members asked how we would suggest describing an African-american character, as his MC (in a middle grade book) had a best friend who was not white. A few pieces of advice were offered (primarily "don't use food words") but one of the panel members grew extremely heated about the idea that it was completely unnecessary to describe the best friend at all. He used the phrase "Any description must serve the story." (Which is true.) And when some of the other audience members tried to point out that this is the South and there are plenty of story reasons to point out that these two characters are friends, this panelist proceeded to yell at everyone in general and specifically the fellow that originally asked the question that he needed to forget about putting a "political message" into his book and just worry about writing a good story.

After which no one wanted to ask any questions which was a shame because we were left not even discussing the original topic of the panel. And I was left thinking - since when is having two kids in the South be chromatically and culturally different a political message? I mean, my son goes to a public school here and there are kids from 16 (16!) different countries in the classes there.

I'm just... boggled. (And sad. Seriously. The dude was shouting.)

Aggy B. said:

this panelist proceeded to yell at everyone in general and specifically the fellow that originally asked the question that he needed to forget about putting a "political message" into his book and just worry about writing a good story.

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This was what I was getting at when I said that some people react to calls for more diversity with ridicule, indignation, even genuine anger.

And I've sort of noticed a pattern that the people who are most insistent that including (and describing) diverse characters is "political" are often rather political people themselves, but at the opposite end of the spectrum from the people they decry as "PC social justice warriors."

The fact that he was yelling says it all. This goes beyond just having an opinion about writing techniques. He feels personally attacked and threatened by calls for more diversity. I'm no mind reader, but a couple of hypotheses are:

A. He's a true bigot who genuinely dislikes or is uncomfortable with people who are different from him, and he hates the idea of anyone writing stories that normalize such people.

B. He's not actively bigoted, but he's frightened that the default norms he's internalized are becoming irrelevant, which might mean he's becoming irrelevant too.

C. He is conflating any mention of race with racism. There are still some people floating around who honestly believe that the best way to combat racism is to pretend that race doesn't exist. i.e. that the only way to not be racist is to be colorblind.

Putputt said:

When your opinion is based on colorblind thinking, then I am going to call bullshit. And the argument that Oh, it doesn't matter because there will always be similarities between me and the MC? Yea, try explaining that to kids who grow up believing they can't be heroes or heroines because they never see people like them represented in popular media.

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I guess I've always looked at a wide variety of reading. As a kid, sure I was super sad that I didn't have red hair and couldn't pass as Ariel, but books were the one place where I did see diversity. I remember reading Kristiana Gregory's stories a million times over because they had princesses that weren't the stereotypical Disney princesses.

So you're right. I can't relate to kids. My opinions aren't just shit, they're bull shit. I live in a culture that labels my culture as cab drivers, gas station owners and terrorists. So I don't feel all that sorry for people who can't see a million books on how someone with the same skin color can be a hero when all I want is my people to not be viewed as villains.

I have more in common with a white, golden haired dwarf from a land I hadn't heard of five years ago and his pasty white author than I do any character or writer that share my eye shape and skin tone. If you can't understand that, then I'll happily apply your logic and call bull.

Alli B. said:

I guess I've always looked at a wide variety of reading. As a kid, sure I was super sad that I didn't have red hair and couldn't pass as Ariel, but books were the one place where I did see diversity. I remember reading Kristiana Gregory's stories a million times over because they had princesses that weren't the stereotypical Disney princesses.

So you're right. I can't relate to kids. My opinions aren't just shit, they're bull shit. I live in a culture that labels my culture as cab drivers, gas station owners and terrorists. So I don't feel all that sorry for people who can't see a million books on how someone with the same skin color can be a hero when all I want is my people to not be viewed as villains.

I have more in common with a white, golden haired dwarf from a land I hadn't heard of five years ago and his pasty white author than I do any character or writer that share my eye shape and skin tone. If you can't understand that, then I'll happily apply your logic and call bull.

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Diversity? Worlds populated by overwhelmingly white characters, some different species admitedly but just as white, that's diversity? Sorry, I'm not buying that. I call bullshit on that being diversity. And we don't want a millions books with people with our skin color as the hero, or I don't at least. What I want is an amount of books that actually matches the current demographics of different POC, and maybe slightly more than the percentage of the USA's LGBT population.What I want is to see people like me or my Kurdish friend and her family represented, because we didn't have that. Not in books.

I would watch Kurdish and Arab shows when over her house, listen to Kurdish music, eat the same foods as she did. And she came over my house and did the same thing. Neither of us could see ourselves in books though, and for all my love of books and her way of letting me induldge in prattling on all about them. That, that was one thing practically closed to us as kids. And it sometimes made me feel like shit.

No kid should feel like shit or like they can't be the hero because there's no books for them to read where Black, Arab, Indian, Native American, Asian etc character are either present or the hero instead of the villain. Same for LGBT kids. They don't deserve that.

As uncomfortable as it can be for some readers, I am really glad this thread stayed open. Lots of thought-provoking discussion.

Alli B. said:

I guess I've always looked at a wide variety of reading. As a kid, sure I was super sad that I didn't have red hair and couldn't pass as Ariel, but books were the one place where I did see diversity. I remember reading Kristiana Gregory's stories a million times over because they had princesses that weren't the stereotypical Disney princesses.

I've always read tons of stuff, and fairly diverse, genre-wise, and don't really recall much diversity. I don't, I guess, consider fantasy species diverse, or books that are as based in another race or culture as most are in white whatever, ethnicity, as diverse. I mean I don't think of 'How Stella Got Her Groove Back,' as a book with diversity.

Some, sure, including some of my favourites. Robert B. Parker has always had a diverse cast of characters. His hero(es) live in a diverse metropolitan city; they logically would interact with people of different races, backgrounds, sexual inclination, etc. and they do.

So you're right. I can't relate to kids. My opinions aren't just shit, they're bull shit. I live in a culture that labels my culture as cab drivers, gas station owners and terrorists. So I don't feel all that sorry for people who can't see a million books on how someone with the same skin color can be a hero when all I want is my people to not be viewed as villains.

This reads as kind of dismissive to people who have only seen people who look like them in fiction as slaves, maids, angry and irrational people, undereducated people, etc., etc., not just 'not heroes.'

The same as Roxx's post points out about women in fiction; it's a pervasive problem, not just the lack of a black or Chinese actual hero, but the lack of normal, everyday characters at the heart of stories who aren't white Christian men. Most times the characters are other than that, the story revolves in some way around how different the character is. Yes, the portrayal of Muslims and people from Middle Eastern backgrounds as one stereotype is harmful too, but it's not different than the lack of other people being other than stereotypes. That's the point I think most people in the thread are making.

I have more in common with a white, golden haired dwarf from a land I hadn't heard of five years ago and his pasty white author than I do any character or writer that share my eye shape and skin tone. If you can't understand that, then I'll happily apply your logic and call bull.

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I don't really understand what you're saying here? It seems to contradict some other things.

Also, no one said you or anyone else couldn't or wouldn't share things in common with white authors or characters. It's not about that - it's about having more characters that represent people besides white people.

Friends got flack for this a lot, and rightly so, imo. They were six people living in the most diverse city in the nation, and yet there were barely ever any non-white people on the show, anyplace. That's not real; it's in fact a bizarre recasting of the reality they purported to be presenting (so were the apartments, but you know), and there was no reason for it, other than that the people making the show just didn't want to put non-white characters in it, for whatever reason. People say things like, 'well, the Cosby show,' but that's the same Terry McMillan thing. Having a show focused on a black family isn't diversity any more than having a show focused on a white family. Roseanne, a show focused on a white family living in far suburban Illinois, had black friends in the cast. Friends, focused on a bunch of young single people in NYC, did not.

The bird's list just made me remember some kid's book set in like, homesteading times that had a Chinese guy who moved to the town and opened the shop. I can't remember the name of the book, but I remember wondering if that happened and researching and finding it to be true.

Also read the All-of-a-Kind Family books, which feature a Jewish family on the Lower East Side around the turn of the century. Those were cool. Still in print I think, and awesome. What was that book with ... Mr. Ping?

Unimportant said:

Thinking back to all the books I read and loved as a kid (yes, waaaaaaay back then)....

Walter Farley's Black Stallion books. White boy.
The Bobbsey Twins. White boy, white girl, and siblings.
The Borrowers. White family.
The Boxcar Children. White boy and his siblings.
Hardy Boys. White boys.
Nancy Drew. White girls.
Narnia. White kids.
Little House on the Prairie. White girl and family.
Pippi Longstocking. White girl and friends.

I can't remember ever reading a story about a black kid. Or a Chinese kid. Or a queer kid. And, I swear, I read every single danged book in our public library.

I reckon I was lucky to find as many stories as I did featuring girl characters. I had no trouble role-playing in my head: I could be Laura Ingalls or Nancy Drew. But what about the kids in my town who weren't white? What did they read? Where did they find stories about kids like themselves? I don't suppose they did. It never crossed my mind when I was a kid. But, in retrospect, I can see that would truly suck.

I reckon every kid deserves to be able to read books featuring characters that look like them, think like them, feel like them, live like them.

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I remember one called Sophia Scrooby Preserved, which was about a black girl living in Colonial Boston. Also, there was Whistle for Willie, which was a popular picture book when I was little. The protag was a young black boy who was learning to whistle so he could call his dog (which was a dachshund, the "Willie" thing wasn't a slang term yet for, um, wieners I guess). There was Sounder also, but I couldn't finish it, because it depressed me. There was the All of a Kind Family, about some Jewish girls growing up in NY in the early 20th century or thereabouts. I learned some things about Judaism from that book. I had a couple of books with folk tales from other cultures too, which included some Chinese, Japanese and African stories, and there was a book about a girl growing up in Hiroshima after the bomb, but I don't remember any contemporary American books off the top of my head with Asian-American characters in them.

But the overwhelming majority of books I read growing up had white kids in them. And I'd say over half the characters were boys too, especially the fantasy, SF, and adventure stories (which I especially loved). Of course, not a single one featured a gay or lesbian or transgender character. There was a book I read about a boy who lost his vision and had to learn to cope (with the help of his guide dog), and another about Wilma Rudolph.

Alli B. said:

I guess I've always looked at a wide variety of reading. As a kid, sure I was super sad that I didn't have red hair and couldn't pass as Ariel, but books were the one place where I did see diversity. I remember reading Kristiana Gregory's stories a million times over because they had princesses that weren't the stereotypical Disney princesses.

So you're right. I can't relate to kids. My opinions aren't just shit, they're bull shit. I live in a culture that labels my culture as cab drivers, gas station owners and terrorists. So I don't feel all that sorry for people who can't see a million books on how someone with the same skin color can be a hero when all I want is my people to not be viewed as villains.

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I might be misreading your argument here. Are you basically saying that because your people are being viewed as villains in pop culture, therefore screw all the other cultures asking for more representation because sheesh, at least they're not being cast as villains? I just don't see how that's a valid argument at all, unless I am misreading.

My family is from Indonesia, which you might know is a Muslim country. Although I am ethnically Chinese, my family name is Indonesian. I've come across people who look at it and go, "Are you Muslim?" in THAT tone of voice, like if I said yes they'd step back from me cautiously. I can empathize to a certain extent with being seen as a terrorist. When Mr. Putt and I decided to move to Indonesia, my parents-in-law used the "BUT IT'S FILLED WITH TERRORISTS" card on us too. It sucks, and I'm sure it's even worse for the native Indonesians and Muslims everywhere else.

But how does implementing colorblind diatribe help? I don't understand that. So we pretend that no racial differences exist? We pretend not to see race, we pretend that we all default to white? We're grateful that our race isn't painted as terrorists, so phew, we choose to hide in the background because god forbid if we make a sound, we might be cast in a negative light?

Erasure does not solve anything. In Indonesia, most people are against extremism and are open with sharing their culture and religion with outsiders, as well as celebrating holidays from different cultures and religions. I want that to be shown in the media. I think that would do a lot more good than hiding them. The answer is not, "Oh, my people are being shown as terrorists, so I'd rather them not be shown at all." The answer is surely, "My people are being misrepresented. I want to see more accurate representations of them."

I have more in common with a white, golden haired dwarf from a land I hadn't heard of five years ago and his pasty white author than I do any character or writer that share my eye shape and skin tone.

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I think this is your own personal issue. I have more in common with certain dwarfs in fantasy novels, but I also have some things in common with characters and writers of the same ethnicity. It's great that you identify with a character. That doesn't make all the other characters unimportant.

ViridianChick said:

There's Maevaris (MTF) and Krem (FTM) from the Dragon Age series. There's Sophia (MTF) from Orange is the New Black. There's the main character (MTF) from Transparent.

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I had no idea Krem was FTM until I read it online. Genuinely, I had no clue. I then practically fell out of my seat when I found out he's voiced by Jennifer Hale.

amergina said:

They are not the same as ancient Vikings driving Panzers.

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I know it isn't the point, but I really like the images this conjures.

Usher said:

Scots travelled a lot - a lot were in the army (they still supply a fair portion of the military), a lot were explorers, scientists, poets, writers, archaeologists, economists etc

Men like Hugh Miller, Reverend George Gordon etc come from the North of Scotland. Alexander Graham Bell taught in the nearest town to where I live. The history has largely been forgotten but the area was full of Italians at one point.

From the late 1600s to early 1900s.

Homosexuality only became legal in Scotland in 1980 but my local town had an acknowledged gay bar in the 1950s/60s. A level of tolerance existed then that didn't later for some reason.

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The Scots have, as a nation, invented practically everything in the history of ever. Speaking as an Englishman (unless Scotland really does own my town) I have great respect for my northern cousins.

Roxxsmom said:

I thought she was saying that Vivienne was possibly a bit less well developed than some of the other characters in the game too. We learned a fair amount about Bull and Cassandra and Dorian and so on, what made them tick and what sort of conflicts they had with their families, their cultures, their belief systems. But Vivienne seemed a bit flatter. I don't think she was saying that Vivienne had to do any of the things she tossed out as suggestions, just that they were examples of the kinds of things that were done for some of the other playable characters that were missing from her.

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I saw Vivienne as a woman utterly at ease with herself. She didn't have that level of conflict because of that. As the head of a circle, she probably isn't used to implementing the things she suggested because she'd have had someone else to actually do the work. That's my interpretation, anyway.
I know Dragon Age II is the most... divisive in the series, but it holds a special place in my mind because of Isabela, who is without a doubt my favourite character in the entire series. Oh, except maybe for Varric.

Filigree said:

As uncomfortable as it can be for some readers, I am really glad this thread stayed open. Lots of thought-provoking discussion.

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Agreed. It's been a damn interesting read.