Need insight about horses

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frimble3

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Doesn't even have to be at the 'Abominable Snowman' level of 'New and Unusual' predator. Just sort of 'New to You'. AIR, one of the early N.A. explorers (maybe Lewis and Clark?), only knowing the smaller eastern black bears, thought the Indians they met were making shit up when they described the gigantic bears in the mountains.
"Who are they trying to kid? Bears don't get that big."
Right up until the explorers ran into their first grizzly bear. :D

Maybe your army is made up of city boys and have never actually thought of wolves as anything but something in granddad's stories of the olden days.

For that matter, the horse don't all have to die, just become unavailable. One of the incidents on the March West of the North-West Mounted Police (ancestor of the RCMP) was a lightning storm that terrified the eastern cavalry horses. They broke out of their makeshift corral and took off in a panic. Now, the NWMP managed to track down and return the horses, but what if your guys didn't get that lucky?
 

Papaya

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Doesn't even have to be at the 'Abominable Snowman' level of 'New and Unusual' predator. Just sort of 'New to You'. AIR, one of the early N.A. explorers (maybe Lewis and Clark?), only knowing the smaller eastern black bears, thought the Indians they met were making shit up when they described the gigantic bears in the mountains.
"Who are they trying to kid? Bears don't get that big."
Right up until the explorers ran into their first grizzly bear. :D

Maybe your army is made up of city boys and have never actually thought of wolves as anything but something in granddad's stories of the olden days.

For that matter, the horse don't all have to die, just become unavailable. One of the incidents on the March West of the North-West Mounted Police (ancestor of the RCMP) was a lightning storm that terrified the eastern cavalry horses. They broke out of their makeshift corral and took off in a panic. Now, the NWMP managed to track down and return the horses, but what if your guys didn't get that lucky?
And then the reader doesn't have to deal with an entire herd of horses dying. Depending on the story you are telling, that might be something worth considering, because killing horses will scare people like me off faster than anything else I can think of.

The original question has been well covered, so I won't repeat what others have already said. Just remember, horses were surviving harsh conditions long before humans domesticated them.
 

sarahdalton

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And then the reader doesn't have to deal with an entire herd of horses dying. Depending on the story you are telling, that might be something worth considering, because killing horses will scare people like me off faster than anything else I can think of.

I have to agree with that, actually. I think people are more turned off by animal death than they are human death. Why? Because animals are innocents.

Plus, it can be a little bit cliched to kill off the horse. The Neverending Story springs to mind. I'm still scarred from watching the horse die in the bog. :(

One thing that I thought of this morning - age. Young, inexperienced horses are more vulnerable, as are the old and slower. Might be worth thinking about.
 

Fenika

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I'm going to reemphasize that horses can dig to grass and aren't stupid generally. If there is a plain or steppe, there is grass. If they eat all day, they'll manage at night. Given poor shelter they'll position themselves where the wind is less and turn their big butts windward.

Now, even the smartest of horses will eat certain toxic plants. Digging for winter grass is hard, so if a kind soldier finds yew somewhere and brings it back to the horses, he'll be watching them drop dead before him if he brings enough.

Running away and finding a warmer valley is a good plan from your horses viewpoint.
 

shaldna

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In addition to everything else, you might find this thread helpful http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69852&highlight=horse+thread

There are quite a lot of horse related threads in the Story research forum.

The bad guys have brought an army northward, ill-prepared for the harsh climate.

Question - how far north are they going and what was the climate they left like? I ask because if they are only going a short distance, say 100 miles, it's not likely to see enough of a change in climate to really make a difference - unless of course you take altitude into consideration.


Winter comes early. Snow piles ups. Temperatures are continuously below freezing. They have to camp outside, huddled around fires.

See my point above in regard to how far the horses have come. 100 miles away means they are probably well used to that sort of weather. 1000 miles away and they are unlikely to be.

My question is...how quickly would horses succumb to the weather? [/quoet]

It depends. I wintered out my horses this year - two ex racehorses and one shetland pony. The thoroughbreds lost a little weight, and their winter coats although long and thick, were very soft and downy and not at all as thick as the shetland, who, btw, thrived all winter.

As I said, the army is ill-prepared and they didn't bring much in the way of supplies or fodder, so the horses are basically forced to eat what they can find.

Would they die of hunger before freezing to death? Or would the horses tolerate the freezing cold? I'm not sure how hardy horses are in such regions.

We've had a couple of years of snow here and mine were fine. They aren't especially tough or hardy breeds. Admittedly they were fed hay and grain, but you'd see them digging in the snow to get to the grass, and our hedges took a bit of damage too.

Horses are pretty good at finding stuff to eat. That said, really harsh weather for horses in hard work who aren't used to teh climate will result in horses losing weight and possibly dying, but this will take weeks, or possibly months depending on what they can find to eat.


The bad guys are ill-informed. They think that they can just ride up north, fight the good guys and ride south...ending the engagement within a week or so. But events have delayed them and they have spent most of their supplies trying to find the good guys. Now winter is coming on full force and they've never experienced the northern lands before.

If it's going to be a long, hard ride then you should check out endurance riding - horses need to be super fit and used to the distance. A general riding horse won't cope with 100 miles a day, and if the horses isn't watered and fed it can drop dead of dehydration before the end of the day, or suffer a heart attack - I've seen both of these happen to expeienced endurance riders, so someone who isn't that used to horses over distance could well find their horses dropping dead.

I hadn't thought about breeds of horses. I probably should look into that.

Breed makes a difference for several reasons - how hardy the horse is - for instance, a thoroughbred is nowhere near as hardy as a new forest pony, for example.

However, in terms of endurance and stamina, that's all tied into the muscles of the horse - fast and slow twitch bundles - which determines speed and endurance abilities - so, you have horses like arabs that are fast and can go great distances, and horses like shires, which are slow and not capable of the same levels of endurance.

So, breed will determine how fast and how far you can go, and also the possibility of the horses being alive over winter.



Horses who are accustomed to cold can do quite well, especially if they're fed, and have a dry place to shelter (even under trees). They get a thicker coat as the weather cools, and in some breeds, they've got "features" designed to ward of cold and damp (like longer hair, or curly hair).

Horses have several layers of hair - a longer 'cat' hair layer, and a thicker, shorter underlayer.

Shetland ponies thrive in the wild in the Shetlands.

True. Shetlands have evolved to live on virtually nothing. They will even eat seaweed when hungry.


If you want to kill the horses off, a plant called ragwort is poisonous to horses. You'd have to check what kind of conditions it grows in,

Most horses won't eat ragwort because of the taste, and it's most poisonous when it's dead. It likes wet weather - you'll see it spring through summer, and it grows really fast.

You're unlikely to have much of it in winter snow though.


And then the reader doesn't have to deal with an entire herd of horses dying. Depending on the story you are telling, that might be something worth considering, because killing horses will scare people like me off faster than anything else I can think of.

If it works for the story then write it like that. Don't write for a handul of readers who will find it uncomfortable. Write for what needs to happen to make the story better - and if that means killing off a whole herd of horses, then do it.
 

Mr Flibble

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Touching on what I said earlier, and as others have said re horses foraging....how are they keeping the horses? In a makeshift corral? Picketed? Hobbled? If they aren't free to roam, then it'll be harder for them to find things to eat, and your men will have to forage for them. If they ARE free to roam, they'll possibly roam right off without people looking after them. And if something happens - predator, storm, something else to spook them - they'll be off like rats up drainpipes.
 

ULTRAGOTHA

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Read up on Napoleon's campaign in Russia. There, many horses died because they were eaten.
 

Papaya

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If it works for the story then write it like that. Don't write for a handul of readers who will find it uncomfortable. Write for what needs to happen to make the story better - and if that means killing off a whole herd of horses, then do it.
Depending on genre and age group being targeted, it could be a lot more than a handful. That is why I said depending on the story.
 

Wicked

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Are there perchance any native peoples living in the area? People the big bad's might have wronged on their way through?

I think it would be great fun to have the entire herd stolen right out from under the big bads' noses.
They're dumb enough to go on such an expedition unprepared, it serves them right. :tongue
 
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Wicked

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I've been thinking about this, and my suspension of disbelief is having trouble with the horses all dropping dead at one time.

How many horses does your army have?

If we were talking about a handful of horses, I would buy the poisoning, or any of the other suggestions. However, if you are talking about hundreds of horses getting taken out in one convenient swoop, like I imagined in the original post, I'm not buying it.

http://www.understanding-horse-nutrition.com/yew.html
This plant is extremely toxic, with as little as 6-8 ounces of the fresh plant capable of killing an adult horse within 5 minutes. Often horses are found dead with yew leaves still in their mouth.
Are the horses picketed, and cared for by individual soldiers? After the first few horses become ill or die, I'd think they get a clue.

If they are loose as a herd, the bad guys will presumably have men watching over them so they don't just wander off. And notice if something starts to go wrong.

Is the herd together in a large contained area? Feeding time for a herd is chaotic. The lead horses will get first dibs, and the weaker horses will be kicked, bitten, and chased off until they get their turn. (especially if the feed is in limited supply. I don't imagine these guys have a tractor to dump a ton of feed at one time)

People whose very lives may depend on their horses, know their animals.

Losing the entire herd while the bad guys look on gives them a serious case of Too Stupid To Live.
"Gee, Bob. The horses are starting to die. Wonder why?"
"Gosh, George, I'm not sure. Maybe they're really hungry. Let's go get some more yew."

Frozen lake would play in well with them getting wet. As others said, wet + cold = bad.
Avalanche? (my 14 year-old's suggestion. The kids were helping me brainstorm)
Volcano - horses run away
Earthquake - horses run away
Meteor - horses run away
Flight of Dragons- horses run away

As long as you have plenty of "red shirt" villains go down with them in the wrath of nature scenarios, it shouldn't feel so much like a plot point of convenience.

How about stampeded by yeti? I do like Mr. Flibble's abominable snowman theory. :D

How about, horses run away. Horses cross really big frozen lake. Frozen lake breaks open, but most of horses make it across. Bad guys are screwed because they can't get the horses back. (Hey, I love the movie King Arthur. Don't judge me. :tongue)
 

frimble3

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Of course, even if you don't lose all the horses at once, the more you lose the more you will lose. If cavalry, lost horses will mean that more men are walking, if they haven't already started walking to spare the weakened horses. The whole army slows down to walking pace, throwing of estimates of how long it will take, and how long the food supply will last. If it's infantry (or mixed) and the horses are pulling supply wagons, etc. then the fewer horses, the more weight the remaining horses will have to pull. As they're already weakened, this will weaken them further. Not much slower, if the men are walking already, but this is the point at which they start throwing away the unnecessary things.
 

Roxxsmom

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A lot would depend on how much grass is available under the snow. Also, if the snow is piled up over the grass or very icy, it would be hard for the horses to get to without human help. Horses that are grazing on dried fodder need a lot of dried grass, especially if working hard in cold weather. A horse with a relatively inactive lifestyle can live on about 15 pounds of forage a day, but horses that are working harder, or where the forage is low quality (like dried grass under snow) would need more to maintain their condition.

Horses can be pretty hardy in the cold if they are acclimated to it and have a nice, thick winter coat. Mustangs are feral domestic horses that live in parts of the American west where it can get cold and nasty, and they manage to survive. Still, it's easier for them if they can get at least some break from the wind. And if they get wet, it will be a lot harder.

It would be very hard on domestic horses that are used to a grain-rich diet and that are not adapted to the cold. It would also be hard on sturdier horses if they are working long hours (and are not given sufficient time to graze), if the snow or ice makes the fodder unavailable, and if they can't get to water (eating enough snow to get sufficient moisture is actually not easy). The humans would possibly have to melt snow for them, and as a horse needs 5-10 gallons of water a day (and maybe more if working hard enough to sweat).

Another issue for animals walking on snow and ice is that they can get ice balls in their feet that need to be picked out from time to time, and if there is a hard crust on the snow, it can cut their legs and fetlocks, and even their feet (horse hooves are tough, but the frog and the area around it are softer and more vulnerable to injury. And even the harder horn of the hoof can be damaged by rocks or ice chunks).

Herds of wild horses tend to find a relatively sheltered area and hunker down if they can when the weather gets nasty, and they tend to head towards the areas where there is less snow accumulation (of course Mustangs live in the relatively arid parts of the American West, where you get less snow accumulation most of the time, even when it's cold).

A horse can live approximately 20-25 days without any food (so long as they have water), but if the horse is working hard in cold weather, this time will be significantly shortened. And the amount of work the horse can do each day without food will be less and less.
 

RobertEvert

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This is all terrific stuff! Thanks.

Yes, I agree. The horses have to die off in spurts, like after each storm. Having them all drop dead at once wouldn't be realistic.

The bad guys are going to have to corral them with ropes and pickets.

It seems likely that the horses would try to eat some of the evergreens which I have already described in my ms. That'll be a believable end to some of them.

Also, I think I'll have to highlight that they are coming from far away...from warmer climates. Good detail. Thanks!

Thanks again. It's amazing how knowledgeable you all are!!
 

Fenika

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Want to get my sci-fi work out there. It's my book about politics and leadership and near extinction on another planet. There's alot more to it, so come check it out. I left links to each new chapter at the bottom of each page. [Link removed]

Tsk. Random spamming with no mention of horses. Shame newbie. Shame.

Reporting post...
 
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ECathers

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Roxxmom brought up the beginnings of what I was thinking. How many hours are the horses going to be allowed to forage per day? Most of the horses (including my sweet Shelties and Mustangs) who make it through the winter well, do so because they're wild horses who spend the majority of their day in winter ON foraging. They're not being expected to haul heavy loads or carry riders.

At this point the army has a choice to make: Allow the horses to forage as needed and slow down their progress or run the horses into the ground and end up closer to their goal, but probably end up with dead horses and a much more challenging trek/limited availability for carrying their own supplies at the end.
 
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