"no one owns culture"

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

Unimportant said:
There is also a lot of sexual fetishising (is that a word?) about women of cultures (or time periods) that are heavily misogynistic, and therefore the women are (or are seen as) submissive and obedient -- aka sex slaves.

It's not only women (though don't me started on the word "squaw").

Apparently the savage Indian is a relatively common hero in romance, too.

There is also a tendency to see other cultures through the lens of Western feminism, without considering how women in those cultures might feel. (Which isn't to excuse misogyny in non-Western cultures, but to point out that feminism might mean different things to women from different cultures.)

EarlyBird · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
I have seen it said on this board before. Sometimes it was challenged, sometimes it wasn't.

Regardless, I don't see why we can't have a discussion about it, where the perspective comes from, and how to challenge it. It's extremely pervasive.

The tragedy is I think many otherwise well-meaning authors — when challenged with their inaccuracies — resort to it as a defensive mechanism.

For educational purposes, could you provide some concrete examples?

I'm a 'WP'. My family, though, is interracial and multi-cultural and while I don't [think] I presume to arbitrarily assume their cultural identity, I'm accoustomed to the diverseness of my family and so tend to write diverse characters. I'd hate to think I was offending others by doing so.

mccardey · Apr 20, 2014

Kuwi, not to be critical, but I think difficulties might arise here from the facts that some of us may never have heard your "No-one owns culture" comment said, and that you've not really defined the parameters of your discussion.

Perhaps your original post was just too brief to do the topic justice? I think we're going to end up arguing at cross-purposes if you don't take hold of the definitions.

Unimportant · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
This is the PoC forum, and I am addressing a PoC issue.

Ack, yes, and thanks for the reminder, because I keep broadening it! But, to commit the same sin (in the spirit of helpfulness, truly), I think it's like when straight people say "Why am I not welcome in gay bars, if gays can come to straight bars? Why do bars need to be gay at all? Why not just bars for everyone?" People in positions of privilege, who have never had to hide who they are or apologise for who they are, have no idea that others need a 'safe place', where they can be themselves, where they don't need to hide, where they can celebrate who they are.

People whose culture is the mainstream, the norm, generally don't feel proprietary about their culture because it's what everyone knows and everyone experiences. It's everywhere. It's everyone's truth. So they can't relate to the idea of a culture being exploited or appropriated.

Just throwin' out ideas here....

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

shaldna said:
Did you even read what I wrote? Because I spoke about how it can be a good, and a bad thing if it's done without full understanding and education.

I can't imagine when appropriation would be a good thing.

If it's done respectfully, then it's not appropriation.

You only spoke about CULTURE not COLOUR. The response you received from several of us was about CULTURE. It's not just PoC who have culture and histories.

Please note what room you are in.

This issues isn't a colour one, yes, certain cultures that are most commonly abused and misunderstood are mostly made up of certain non-white ethnic groups, but to just dismiss everyone who isn't PoC and every culture that isn't predominately made up of PoC is highly dismissive. It's basically saying 'our culture / colour is more important than yours so you can't be part of this discussion.'

No, I posted in here because I want to have a discussion as it relates to PoC.

That is all.

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

shaldna said:
And yet you spoke about CULTURE. You didn't say WHICH culture.

As I said, I posted in this room for a reason.

But sure, all us white people will just go and sit in the corner and not have an opinion.

That is your choice.

And listening is indeed an important part of being an ally.

mirandashell · Apr 20, 2014

Kuwi, I'm really not sure why you started this other than to pick a fight or have people console you. No-one is really learning anything and people are getting wound up. So what, exactly, were you hoping to get from this as a thread?

Unimportant · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
Apparently the savage Indian is a relatively common hero in romance, too.

Oh, gosh, yes.

I would imagine that many authors think they are doing a good thing, and are well-intended, and think that they are being respectful. A la, "People believe Indians were savages who went around scalping each other. I will show it differently! I will show that they respected nature (by throwing in lots of references to the Great Spirit). I will show that they knew lots about the food of the land (by showing them gathering wild rice in their canoes, and collecting honey to pound into their pemmican, and using cornstalks as beanpoles). I will show that they were kind, loving people (by having the savage chief fall in love with the white woman who was kidnapped, and they have awesome sex with multiple orgasms in their teepee, and live HEA). There! Now people know that Indians -- oops, I mean Native Americans -- are real people, too! Like, almost as good as white people!"

So, it's back at you, K. How do you tell such an author that showing a PoC-culture as "better than the typical stereotype" isn't necessarily a good thing? If they were to donate all their earnings to a charity set up to support that particular culture, would that make it better? (Or worse?) How do you, as a PoC, counter that mindset?

Unimportant · Apr 20, 2014

shaldna said:
But sure, all us white people will just go and sit in the corner and not have an opinion.

He hasn't shut me up yet.

Try harder, Ku!

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

mccardey said:
Kuwi, not to be critical, but I think difficulties might arise here from the facts that some of us may never have heard your "No-one owns culture" comment said, and that you've not really defined the parameters of your discussion.

EarlyBird said:
For educational purposes, could you provide some concrete examples?

I'll see what I can dig up.

I admit it's not always phrased so straightforwardly as in the title (though many times it is), but the title pretty accurately sums up the attitude: a nation's culture belongs to everyone, even if I don't belong to that nation, therefore I can take whatever I want from it and use it however I wish.

I'm a 'WP'. My family, though, is interracial and multi-cultural and while I don't [think] I presume to arbitrarily assume their cultural identity, I'm accoustomed to the diverseness of my family and so tend to write diverse characters. I'd hate to think I was offending others by doing so.

Writing diverse characters is a good thing.

I honestly don't think a writer who accidentally misrepresents a culture is a bad person or a racist at all.

I think offending people by what we write is something that will inevitably happen.

It's what we do when that happens that's most important, I think.

You can understand what you did wrong, apologize, and take measures not to do it again.

Or you can defend your choices and rationalize why it was your right to write it the way you did, even if it could be seen as inaccurate or disrespectful.

The latter is what I find offensive.

I have no issue with writers who screw up. I have an issue who defend and rationalize their screw-ups when called on them.

mccardey · Apr 20, 2014

So it's people who say "No-one owns culture." as a defense, or as a response to having blatantly or even inadvertantly dealt with another culture disrespectfully or inaccurately.

Yes, I think that would bother me quite a lot, too. Particularly if it's coming from some-one whose culture is more privileged in reference to one that is less so. I'd get pretty short-tempered with that. I'm with you there.

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

Unimportant said:
So, it's back at you, K. How do you tell such an author that showing a PoC-culture as "better than the typical stereotype" isn't necessarily a good thing? If they were to donate all their earnings to a charity set up to support that particular culture, would that make it better? (Or worse?) How do you, as a PoC, counter that mindset?

Haha I think the second part is an excellent question, because that's exactly what Dan Snyder did.

For anyone unfamiliar, Dan Snyder is the owner of the Washington Redskins, which is a racial slur.

Facing major pressure from Native American groups to change team's name from a racial slur to something else, he toured "Indian Country" to try to get native perspectives on the issue, including my own tribe's reservation.

Despite being presented with multitudinous reasons why the name should be changed, he apparently felt it was okay because it honored native peoples, and instead decided to found the "Original Americans" Foundation, which proceeded to help buy part of a backhoe, and call everything good.

Putputt · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
I'll see what I can dig up.

I admit it's not always phrased so straightforwardly as in the title (though many times it is), but the title pretty accurately sums up the attitude: a nation's culture belongs to everyone, even if I don't belong to that nation, therefore I can take whatever I want from it and use it however I wish.

Hmm, I agree with McCardey...I think it would be helpful if you show us examples of this happening. I can't think of an instance where that has happened. The closest thing I can think of was when I read the reviews of Shantaram. Many people argued that the author, who isn't Indian, has done a poor job of portraying the culture. But on the other hand, even more people said that the India shown in the book is one they can relate to. Someone finally said something along the lines of, "Every culture is made up of many individuals with different experiences, so my experience growing up in India might differ from yours. It doesn't make it any less authentic." That's what I think of when I see someone saying that you can't own a culture, but we might be thinking of something entirely different...

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

mccardey said:
So it's people who say "No-one owns culture." as a defence, or as a response to having blatantly dealt with another culture disrespectfully or inaccurately.

Yes, it's a rationalization, either before or after-the-fact.

Sometimes it comes during research, as a rationalization for not trying harder to get the facts right, or changing them when they're inconvenient.

Sometimes it comes afterward, when called on inaccuracy. In that case, it's not so much the inaccuracy itself that's the problem; sometimes it's the rationalization that it's okay despite it being wrong; sometimes it's the "apology" that isn't an apology.

buz · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
It's the psychology of the title phrase in which I'm interested.

Hmm, it's interesting to think about. Here's a stab at it, which is just sort of me thinking aloud, and therefore may be flawed

:

I do not consider myself...having a culture, really. I mean, technically I do...Disney movies and Christmas and shit...but it doesn't mean anything to me. I don't think of it as mine. It's just there. I don't think of myself as owning it; it's all just peripheral stuff that was built into my life by circumstance, except those parts that I chose for myself.

If someone, feeling roughly the same way, projected those feelings onto other people...? I don't know. I wonder if someone would simply assume their mindset of not owning their culture applies to everyone indiscriminately?

(mind, that's not how I feel about it

)

mccardey · Apr 20, 2014

buzhidao said:
Hmm, it's interesting to think about. Here's a stab at it, which is just sort of me thinking aloud, and therefore may be flawed :

I do not consider myself...having a culture, really. I mean, technically I do...Disney movies and Christmas and shit...but it doesn't mean anything to me. I don't think of it as mine. It's just there. I don't think of myself as owning it; it's all just peripheral stuff that was built into my life by circumstance, except those parts that I chose for myself.

If someone, feeling roughly the same way, projected those feelings onto other people...? I don't know. I wonder if someone would simply assume their mindset of not owning their culture applies to everyone indiscriminately?

(mind, that's not how I feel about it )

No, but I think Kuwi's referring to cases where someone who doesn't belong to the culture portrays it inaccurately or disrespectfully, and when called on it says "Oh, but no-one owns (any) culture".

Which is pretty much "I don't care."

If you belong to a culture that has had to fight very hard to survive, then you might well care. And this dismissiveness might mean much more to you than it does to someone who's culture has mostly been on the winning side. Particularly if that culture runs more deeply than, say, Disney.

ETA: That last sentence sounds harsh - I only mention Disney because Buzh. raised it and Christmas. It's not shorthand for middle-class America or anything. I could also say "or Aussie mateship".

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

Putputt said:
Hmm, I agree with McCardey...I think it would be helpful if you show us examples of this happening. I can't think of an instance where that has happened.

See 16–18 and 20 in this excellent satirical post, all of which show modern authors rationalizing their inaccuracies in depiction of native cultures.

I apologize all of my own examples and frustrations are centered on Native America; that just happens to be my own experience. If anyone has examples to share from other cultures, please do.

Before starting this thread, I did a Google search of the phrase, and came across an article with this gem:

This time last year I was very depressed by Glasgow Museum's decision to give the Ghost Dance Shirt to the Survivors of Wounded Knee Association. I was infuriated by the idea that Glasgow could not claim to be the "friendly city" as long as Glaswegians were burdened with the guilt of having ripped the shirt off the dying Dakota Sioux chief.

That cemented my decision to start the thread.

buz · Apr 20, 2014

mccardey said:
No, but I think Kuwi's referring to cases where someone who doesn't belong to the culture portrays it inaccurately or disrespectfully, and when called on it says "Oh, but no-one owns (any) culture".

Which is pretty much "I don't care."

If you belong to a culture that has had to fight very hard to survive, You probably do care: and this dismissiveness might mean much more to you than it does to someone who's culture has mostly been on the winning side. Particularly if that culture runs more deeply than, say, Disney.

Yes, of course

He asked where that sort of attitude could come from; I was just thinking aloud about possible origins of said attitude.

I don't think it's right--not defending it, like...

That's what I mean--like, if your culture just consists of Disney movies, it doesn't mean as much to you, maybe, and that's why you might be inclined to think that it's not something one owns--possibly. Thus causing appropriation of cultures that DO matter to people, in potentially offensive ways. Does that make sense?

I'm not espousing this view, at all. Lol. Just thinking on the original question of where the thought might come from.

PS. Or it's what Unimportant says, below me.

hahahaha durr.

Unimportant · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
which proceeded to help buy part of a backhoe, and call everything good.

Well, sure, everyone knows a backhoe can make things all better. Backhoes are like magic. ::eyeroll::

I think (again, speculating) part of the problem lies in our European/American traditional mindset of ownership being a legal term. Culture isn't something anyone can own, unless they can figure out a way to trademark/copyright it. So, if it's not illegal to use/borrow it, then it's okay.

And part of the problem, too, lies in the belief that admiration is always a compliment, and compliments are always welcome. Just as men think they're complimenting a woman when they hit on her, white people think that they're complimenting a PoC's culture when they get a Maori tattoo or hang a dreamcatcher in their kitchen window or twist their hair into dreadlocks.

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

VRanger said:
Polite folks were given to understand decades ago that the term was considered offensive, and we stopped using it. I haven't seen that phrase in use in my experience since the 60s, and it surprises me to see it in use here.

"Colored person" was and is an offensive term.

"Citizen of color" was used by Martin Luther King, Jr. as early as 1963, and "person of color" has been used by PoC activists since the 70s and 80s.

To me, people are people. I don't care where they come from or what they look like.

Please read the stickies. In one of them, there is a link explaining why colorblindness reinforces racism.

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

buzhidao said:
I do not consider myself...having a culture, really. I mean, technically I do...Disney movies and Christmas and shit...but it doesn't mean anything to me. I don't think of it as mine. It's just there. I don't think of myself as owning it; it's all just peripheral stuff that was built into my life by circumstance, except those parts that I chose for myself.

If someone, feeling roughly the same way, projected those feelings onto other people...? I don't know. I wonder if someone would simply assume their mindset of not owning their culture applies to everyone indiscriminately?

I think this a feeling that many others share, and I do think there's an interesting discussion to have there.

Whenever we do an awareness event at my university, we always have a bunch of people come by our booth, and say "I'm part Native American", and I ask what tribe, and they don't know. Especially among blacks who have native ancestry, there are very valid and tragic reasons they don't know. But nonetheless, I've been trying to think about what to say to this, and how to best encourage them to explore their culture in a healthy way without accidentally appropriating it, and without invalidating their experience.

I'm curious if you have any further thoughts on "not having a culture" yourself? After all, I'm also have Swedish and Polish ancestry, but I would not call myself Swedish or Polish, because I have no connection to those cultures or that part of my heritage. I'm wondering how I would explore that part of me.

I think there must be respectful ways to find your culture without appropriating one. Right?

RichardGarfinkle · Apr 20, 2014

Kuwisdelu,
I think one aspect of the problem may be academic in origin. As you know, Bob, there are fields of academia for which culture is subject matter. There is an implicit presumption in the creation of such fields, the presumption that culture is there to be analyzed (dissected, vivisected etc).
While anthropology and sociology can be done respectfully, the academic distance between scholar and subject matter makes this more difficult.

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

Unimportant said:
I think (again, speculating) part of the problem lies in our European/American traditional mindset of ownership being a legal term. Culture isn't something anyone can own, unless they can figure out a way to trademark/copyright it. So, if it's not illegal to use/borrow it, then it's okay.

Another example of this attitude, specifically re: "cultural copyright" can be found here.

Scroll down to a comment by Beverly Slapin regarding her confronting the author about his appropriation of Pueblo culture, and the author's reaction.

This is a story that I read growing up. At the time, I recognized the inaccuracies and it was obviously a fantasy fiction to me. I did enjoy it this way. Yet it is marketed and sold as traditional folklore.

And part of the problem, too, lies in the belief that admiration is always a compliment, and compliments are always welcome. Just as men think they're complimenting a woman when they hit on her, white people think that they're complimenting a PoC's culture when they get a Maori tattoo or hang a dreamcatcher in their kitchen window or twist their hair into dreadlocks.

That's a good analogy.

Putputt · Apr 20, 2014

kuwisdelu said:
See 16–18 and 20 in this excellent satirical post, all of which show modern authors rationalizing their inaccuracies in depiction of native cultures.

I apologize all of my own examples and frustrations are centered on Native America; that just happens to be my own experience. If anyone has examples to share from other cultures, please do.

Ahh, thank you for the link. The examples given in the post are really bad, but I'm not sure that it's a matter of feeling like nobody "owns" culture. I might just be speaking out of my ass here...but it read to me more like exoticizing a culture and twisting the truth to make it fit your story. Both examples 16 and 17 state that "this is a work of fiction" as their defence, not "Nobody owns this culture", so that's how I read it. Note that this does not make it any less bad. I got really frustrated reading the blog post as well.

kuwisdelu · Apr 20, 2014

RichardGarfinkle said:
I think one aspect of the problem may be academic in origin. As you know, Bob, there are fields of academia for which culture is subject matter. There is an implicit presumption in the creation of such fields, the presumption that culture is there to be analyzed (dissected, vivisected etc).

While anthropology and sociology can be done respectfully, the academic distance between scholar and subject matter makes this more difficult.

Certainly, and there is quite a quandary there. I can't speak for other cultures, but in the past, many native peoples were much more open. Anthropologists and ethnographers and linguists were welcomed and — though it took time — earned trust and were allowed access to our stories.

There were packaged and published and copyrighted the white author, and what were we to do? I understand that's how academia works (naturally, since I'm in academia!) but I think it's what happened afterward that really burned us. Other white authors read the versions written down by white men and transformed them even further until they fit the Disney fairy tale their readers wanted.

And we end up with Quileute werewolves.

"no one owns culture"

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