German Exchange Student Shot in Montana

rugcat

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In which case that comparable events would be street racing, bets over dangerous youtube stunts, sharking, and making soda bottle bombs. Across that age group stupidity is a team sport that quickly leads to delinquency and then criminality and gangs. Lines have to be drawn.
Nobody disagrees with this, I would think. But I'd also guess you would agree that purposefully killing a teen as an object lesson is not a method that should be employed.
 

cornflake

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I have very little sympathy for stupid kids doing stupid crap. Foreign exchange student or not.

The home owner might be a cantankerous ass, and probably should've looked before he shot, but ultimately, I feel that if the kid hadn't been there, breaking the law, he wouldn't have been shot.

Sounds like the man had the right to protect his house. "Cowboy culture", indeed.

Protect his house? He had the right to shoot someone to protect... his house?

That's not even what the law there says - it says he had a right to shoot someone if he had a reasonable belief someone in the home was (I didn't look but I'd guess) imminently in danger of assault or worse. I don't like the law; I don't think the law should exist, but the law isn't in the same zip code as the right to protect his house.

Agreed.

T.P.ing someone's house on Halloween is criminal mischief, so not legal, and it's pretty stupid, but I think we can all agree that it would be a bad idea to start shooting every masked kid holding a roll of Charmin just because they step off the sidewalk.

Wasn't there an exchange student killed some years ago walking onto someone's lawn in a Halloween costume? In Oklahoma or someplace?
 

veinglory

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Nobody disagrees with this, I would think. But I'd also guess you would agree that purposefully killing a teen as an object lesson is not a method that should be employed.

Nor did I at any point whatsoever meant to imply that. I made two separate and unconnected points.

1) Of two people who act foolishly the one who commits murder is more culpable
2) Institutions that deal with youths should take steps to prevent ritualized acts of dangerous criminal behavior
 
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waylander

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I have very little sympathy for stupid kids doing stupid crap. Foreign exchange student or not.

The home owner might be a cantankerous ass, and probably should've looked before he shot, but ultimately, I feel that if the kid hadn't been there, breaking the law, he wouldn't have been shot.

Sounds like the man had the right to protect his house. "Cowboy culture", indeed.

I suspect you might feel differently if this was your kid, or nephew or kid's friend.
 
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robjvargas

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I suspect you might feel differently if this was your kid, or nephew or kid's firend.

I feel certain that it wasn't your intent, but this always strikes me a personal insult.

At 8 years old, a neighbor and classmate climbed up a tree near power lines to retrieve a football. Whether the shock or the fall killed him, I felt the pain of that loss, and *still* believed that climbing that tree was a stupid thing to do.

So no, I don't believe that rules only apply to others if I don't have an emotional attachment.
 

rugcat

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That's not even what the law there says - it says he had a right to shoot someone if he had a reasonable belief someone in the home was (I didn't look but I'd guess) imminently in danger of assault or worse. I don't like the law; I don't think the law should exist, but the law isn't in the same zip code as the right to protect his house.
Actually, that's the old law. The new one expands the right to use deadly force.
45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.

(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:

(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or

(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.
My bold.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Montana-Gun-Laws.htm

Worth noting is that burglary is classified as a forcible felony. My reading is that according to the law, if someone breaks into your house you can shoot them to prevent them from stealing your TV. If the garage has an access door to the house, it could be considered as part of the house; if you surprised someone stealing your bike there, you can shoot them. You need not be in fear of your life or safety. (I think this is the gray area, though)

Also worth noting is what burglary actually consists of. State laws vary, but the common legal definition is unlawful entry with the intent to commit a felony, assault or theft.

If you invite a friend in to watch TV and he steals your coin collection, that's theft, but not burglary.

If he breaks in while you're away, (or even walks in through an unlocked door) that's burglary and theft.

If he comes by while you're away, meaning to steal your stash but can't find it and leaves empty handed, that's still a burglary.

If he thinks you're messing with his girlfriend, kicks down the door, and smashes up your TV, that's criminal trespass and vandalism, but not burglary. And not a felony

If punches you in the face, that's assault, and now burglary as well.

And if a kid reaches through an open window and takes a pie you've just baked off the table next to the window, guess what -- that's a burglary. Entry is any physical intrusion.

(I am of course to an attorney, but I have a fairly good grasp of criminal law, I believe. If I'm wrong about any of this, perhaps Mark can weigh in and correct me.)

My point? Just saying something is a burglary and burglary is a felony may be technically correct, but circumstances vary widely. A slavish adherence to the letter of the law as a justification for violent acts toward a perpetrator is, imo, incomprehensible.

And puzzling when used by those who profess to have a libertarian bent.
 
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robjvargas

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Worth noting is that burglary is classified as a forcible felony. My reading is that according to the law, if someone breaks into your house you can shoot them to prevent them from stealing your TV. If the garage has an access door to the house, it could be considered as part of the house; if you surprised someone stealing your bike, you can shoot them before they can get away. You need not be in fear of your life or safety.
Fair.

That's why used the more social definition from Merriam-Webster. There's a context that isn't codified in law, but that can apply here.
 

MarkEsq

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If he thinks you're messing with his girlfriend, kicks down the door, and smashes up your TV, that's criminal trespass and vandalism, but not burglary. And not a felony


(I am of course to an attorney, but I have a fairly good grasp of criminal law, I believe. If I'm wrong about any of this, perhaps Mark can weigh in and correct me.)

You called? :)

Rugcat is spot on with these. The only teeny variance might be if the TV is worth more than $1,500, which would make it's destruction a felony and that crime a burglary.

But, other than that... spot on.
 

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Wasn't there an exchange student killed some years ago walking onto someone's lawn in a Halloween costume? In Oklahoma or someplace?

Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 1992. Homeowner Rodney Peairs shot and killed Japanese college student Yoshihiro Hattore.



No. Not the one Cornflake was referring to. She is referring to the Baton Rouge case from 1992.


There is actually a different AW thread from 2008 about a guy who --in the year 2008-- tried to handle trespassers by squirting fox urine at them with a water gun.

http://advice.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124437


And in that 2008 thread about the fox urine in the water gun, we all entertained a minor thread derail concerning the Asian kid who got shot to death in a guy's driveway back in 1992.

This post by AW member HeronW is from December of 2008:

http://advice.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3059780#post3059780

Baton Rouge, Lousiana--October 17, 1992--8:30 P.M....

A Japanese exchange student, Yoshihiro Hattori, was searching for a party he had been invited to. Thinking he had found the house in which the social would take place, Yoshihiro knocked on the door. Not knowing that they had the wrong house Yoshihiro and his companion startled the proprietor. After having the front door shut in their face the two boys began walking back to Yoshihiro's car. Yoshihiro Hattori and his friend, Webb Haymaker, then turned back towards the house upon hearing the carport door open behind them. Instead of seeing the party's host, these two boys were greeted by a " 'Freeze' " and a .44 Magnum-carrying Rodney Peairs. Yoshihiro, thinking he had
found the party after all, stepped towards Mr. Peairs and said, "'We're here for the party' ". Webb Haymaker then found himself standing over his dying friend, Yoshihiro Hattore, a victim of unintentional homicide.

Rodney Peairs, the homeowner who gunned down Yoshi Hattori, was indicted by a grand jury. He was charged with manslaughter and put on trial in May '93. The jury, apprently convinced that Peairs was well within his rights to blow away an inquiring teenager, deliberated for just over three hours before acquitting him.

Justice much?
 

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In which case that comparable events would be street racing, bets over dangerous youtube stunts, sharking, and making soda bottle bombs. Across that age group stupidity is a team sport that quickly leads to delinquency and then criminality and gangs. Lines have to be drawn.

Much as I agree with the sentiment, this comparison falls apart the minute the individual illegally enters someone else's dwelling.
 

cornflake

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Actually, that's the old law. The new one expands the right to use deadly force.My bold.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/guncontrol/a/Montana-Gun-Laws.htm



And puzzling when used by those who profess to have a libertarian bent.

Thanks for the update/clarification. I was going off the other, I assume previous, now obsolete law from the other post. I didn't know Montana had gone that far, the way of Texas, bah.

Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 1992. Homeowner Rodney Peairs shot and killed Japanese college student Yoshihiro Hattore.

That was indeed the case I was thinking of - thanks! I didn't have a chance to look before, but only remembered it was a kid from another country on a lawn who was like going to a party, not doing anything even mischievous.
 

blacbird

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I won't defend the homeowner, although I believe that Montana's Castle Doctrine law is on the homeowner's side.

"Castle Doctrine law." I love that phrase. I wonder though, back in the days when castles were practical structures for security purposes, how many castle owners left the drawbridge down and the portcullis up and lay in wait with longbows just to see who might try to sneak in the open door.

This homeowner could have scared off any intruder with something as simple as a siren or a flashing strobe light connected to that motion sensor. Instead, he waited with a loaded shotgun and fired it multiple times into what he claims was darkness in the garage.

Nobody is defending what the student did. But that he deserved to die for that is most assuredly an arguable point. His death was no accident.

caw
 

Don

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I'm a big fan of the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP], but I'm with blacbird here. This shooting stinks of intentional entrapment and cold-blooded murder. IMO, of course.
 

Vince524

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I don't like the law; I don't think the law should exist, but the law isn't in the same zip code as the right to protect his house.


I'm a little confused. You're saying you don't like the law where a person can use deadly force to protect their family if someone breaks in?

In this case, it seems like the guy may have been looking for a moment to blow someone away. If a person breaks in and clearly they're not out to do you harm, then IMHO, it's murder to just shoot them.

But many times their intent is unclear and I do prefer to give the benefit of the doubt to the homeowner who is more than likely scared for their lives.

The idea of the law is that if someone is breaking into your home, you shouldn't have to worry about being 100% certain of their intent to harm and being able to prove it. But wanting someone to break in so you can shoot them shouldn't be covered by it.

This may be the exception, however I'll withhold judgement until all facts are in.
 

robjvargas

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"Castle Doctrine law." I love that phrase. I wonder though, back in the days when castles were practical structures for security purposes, how many castle owners left the drawbridge down and the portcullis up and lay in wait with longbows just to see who might try to sneak in the open door.

This homeowner could have scared off any intruder with something as simple as a siren or a flashing strobe light connected to that motion sensor. Instead, he waited with a loaded shotgun and fired it multiple times into what he claims was darkness in the garage.

Nobody is defending what the student did. But that he deserved to die for that is most assuredly an arguable point. His death was no accident.

caw

While I basically agree, I haven't seen anything that says Mr Kaarma was waiting for this to happen.

And that's a hard subtopic for me to address, too. He left his garage door partially open. After being victimized twice previously.

:Wha:

Don't blame the victim for being a victim. I get that. And he *was* a victim of Mr Dede's act of theft (or attempted theft, since I'm not sure he actually took anything).

But I can't help going back to:
  • House burglarized
  • Twice
  • Garage door open
Does not compute.

Maybe the door was open to let the kids ride bikes or something. Maybe he really was laying in wait. Maybe the door sticks.

But it sure looks bad on a couple of levels.
 

kaitie

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If he had the garage door open with the alarm on and a purse inside and had told someone he was going to "shoot someone," he isn't a victim. He's a perpetrator. Maybe a vigilante. Either way his response was extreme for the situation and his actions don't fit the story.

ETA: If your kids go out to ride bikes, you can easily close the door behind them and open it again when they get back. And honestly, I'm of the opinion that theft of any sort is never an acceptable reason to kill someone. My crap is not worth more than a person's life.
 
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robjvargas

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If he had the garage door open with the alarm on and a purse inside and had told someone he was going to "shoot someone," he isn't a victim. He's a perpetrator. Maybe a vigilante. Either way his response was extreme for the situation and his actions don't fit the story.

Have I missed something? I didn't see any mention of a purse. And motion sensor alarms can be set to activate themselves.

BUT, yes, his response was extreme. To say the least.

ETA: If your kids go out to ride bikes, you can easily close the door behind them and open it again when they get back. And honestly, I'm of the opinion that theft of any sort is never an acceptable reason to kill someone. My crap is not worth more than a person's life.

The Law doesn't necessarily conform to opinions of "right" choices. One can do "wrong" without violating the law. I'm not sure I believe that blanket opinion. I believe there is a point where the thief's intention become unclear, and while I may not employ deadly force, I concede others' right to do so.

Having said that, this incident doesn't reach that level of support from me.
 

kaitie

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There was a mention upthread that the affidavits from the police had stated a purse was left in the garage.
 

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Generally speaking, I don't really feel bad when someone who was breaking into someone else's home ends up being assaulted or shot. If you don't want that to happen, you shouldn't go into other people's homes to try to steal from them.

However, as others have said, this seems less spur of the moment, shooting at someone in the dark, and more a deliberate set up. And if it can be proven to have forethought put into her, then he should be charged with something.
 

robjvargas

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There was a mention upthread that the affidavits from the police had stated a purse was left in the garage.

Actually, the affidavit says *the wife* did it. And it's not at all clear that Mr Kaarma knew of it beforehand. It also hints that the wife may have pressured or manipulated him into this.
 

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If these kids had been doing this with enough frequency that there had been multiple break-ins at one home, and enough to have a name for the act, then the police should have been paroling that neighborhood.

What I find odd is that a house with motion sensors and an owner so shaken by previous break-ins that he was jittery during daylight hours had an open garage door.

No, the kids shouldn't have been breaking in. Those who chose to do so should have been arrested. Yes, it's doubly stupid to do something like this in a place where castle laws exist, and in a state where gun ownership is commonplace.

But - I would still be asking the homeowner about the open door.

The most vulnerable /weakest door inside a house is the one leading into the garage. The garage door itself is the deterrent to intruders; the inner door is convenience and can easily be kicked in. No way in this world would I believe that a man living in the situation described in the OP left that door up accidentally, or because he thought there was no risk.

Kids were breaking into garages that were open. His garage is conveniently open, but the alarm is set. That sounds like a rabbit trap.

If he'd quickly closed the door on them or turned the lights on and taken their picture, he could have called the police. Confronting unknown burglars isn't a smart thing to do, but again, the open door makes me wonder if he believed them to be dangerous at all.

That is NOT what the castle laws were designed for. (It's what they allow, as they're too broadly worded, but it wasn't the intent as I understand it.)
THIS. If the guy had had break ins previously he didn't accidently leave the door open. people don't deserve to die for petty theft.

ETA: man my head is spinning. his wife might have set it up?
 
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benluby

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I don't know how it's used where you are, but I hear "something stupid" to refer to illegal acts all the time, to the extent that it's usually understood that "something stupid" implies "something illegal".

It wasn't "something really stupid", which usually implies "something that will get you killed."

This should've just been something stupid. Not something really stupid.


Breaking into a house in a state that has castle doctrine IS something really stupid, and illegal.
In this instance, it is a case of two jackasses (three when you count the kid that didn't get killed) involved in a circle of ignorance.
I have no pity for the dumbass that got shot.
I also have no pity for the idiot homeowner who not only quite apparently set a trap but talked about it prior to. He deserves a nice, long sentence.
But again, this is one of those myriad stories put out there that shows the few idiot meetings, rather than the situations where those homeowners and law abiding citizens with firearms use them for personal protection successfully.
 

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The 'dumbass' didn't just get shot, he got killed. Do we really expect a teenage foreign exchange student to know about castle doctrines? He was doing something illegal and dumb, for certain, but there has to be something in between being victimized as a homeowner and shooting first, asking questions later.