The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Re: Talent v. Responibility

I HAVE seen folks say things like, "Imagine if an editor saw how Marcus behaves on the PA board and then saw his name on a submission. It wouldn't take long to know you don't want to work with that guy." But that wouldn't imply industry black-balling but more of a "if a specific editor saw that a person is difficult and not totally rooted in reality, that specific editor might pass on wanting to work with him." I don't know of anyone who actually has ANY experience in publishing who thinks the publishing world is that cohesive...it's kind of funny to picture editors getting together to whisper: "Did you get a list of the PA cheerleaders? You'll want to reject them if you want to stay in the club." When I've heard editors chat together, they've been talking about their kids, and their bosses...and pretty much the same stuff everyone else chats about.

Other than that, I've mostly seen folks suggest NOT using the PA book as a "credit" in query letters since enough folks in the industry have heard of PA to know it's a vanity press. But those remarks don't mention liking PA or disliking it.

Marcus says people who hate PA will be black-balled in the industry pretty regularly. And someone named "Mr. BOOK" said it a bunch of times on Mindsight (but he may have been Marcus...or Carl. It gets confusing to keep up).

gran

Re: Another Lie

Hapisofi, should you choose to ignore me we'll both be doing the snoopy dance.

Victoria,

Later this weekend I'll pull some quotes for you. I remember who they were because, well, they were directed to me.

D James

Just a thought too guys.

Writing prose is a skill; it's a teachable skill that most people, with sufficient will and determination, can learn. Really. I teach roughly eighty people a year to produce standard prose, and most of them are less than dedicated to the task. It's called Preparation for Academic Writing, English 2, Introduction to Academic Prose, or English 3, and Critical Reading and Analysis, or English 4. Sometimes we do Advanced Exposition, or Stylistic Analysis or various other upper class writing classes.

Click to expand...

I just love how some take what I say so personal to them as if I had meant that what I say is directed point blank to their chest. I will clarify once more. I do NOT put down authors neither here nor about PA. I merely said that MOST authors who are signed with PA as first time authors need to perfect their craft.

I am glad that people want to teach other people to write. Very! I am in round table discussions and critique groups all the time. So I am all for it, which was my point in the first place.

It's not just PA first time authors that need assistance. Any author who is breaking into this business with any other publishing firm will probably require some mentoring. Period. Just how it works. So, that does NOT put PA people down and you know what? If a PA reader gets on this board and reads that I said that, and becomes offended...They have no business in the business.

Finally, you teach, I try to help as an advocate for Simon's fallen PA authors, but no matter how much you try sometimes, people do not want to know the truth. They do not want to be told they are being raked through the coals of a company who has not only scorned but continues to profit from its authors. If they want to sit and believe they need no help, they are perfectly fine with overpricing, bad writing, whatever; just to see their books in their hands? Then Vanity Press i.e. Publish America publishing is RIGHT for them.

Ignorance is bliss.

I have not read these pages in but a day and I had to go back 3 pages to catch up. If I were a PA author coming her for the first time there would be a whole lot of bickering I'd see and not much help but the postings in between all this from Jim, Ann and Victoria. Don't believe me. Think newbie and re-read the last few pages. eeeew! :b

That dead horse

Gmort:

It's hard to get off the dead horse when it's pinning you down.

Carl said in a post dated 1/5/5
"The dominant bookstores where I live are Walden and Borders ..."

There is a Walden and a Borders in Frederick MD but no Barnes and Noble.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com

Re: That dead horse

There is a Walden and a Borders in Frederick MD but no Barnes and Noble.

There's a both Walden and a Borders in or near Chardon, OH, too, while the nearest B&N is nearly forty miles away. The nearest BAM is around 250 miles away, in Dayton.

This sort of scouting around doesn't prove anything.

Meanwhile, if I say that a PublishAmerica credit in a cover letter is worthless (which I do say), that doesn't mean that you'll be blacklisted for going with PA.

Putting in non-professional credits can hurt you, if they show that you've been hanging out in low-level markets. (Markets no one's ever heard of, such as ones you made up in order to pad your letter, won't help either.) People really do tend to think that that's the best you could do.

The same thing goes for 1/4 cent-a-word (or pays-in-copies) journals, or freebie web-zines, or any of the vanity presses. I wouldn't list any of them. They can harm you in setting up lower expectations.

I've seen a fellow list his letters to the editor of his local newspaper as a prior publishing credit. This didn't help him either.

What putting in your credits does is send the shorthand message "This is the level I'm working at." Leaving that section of the cover letter blank is a better idea than saying, in effect, "Vanity publishing is the best I could do."

When I read slush, I put the cover letter, unread, behind the three-and-an-outline, so it won't prejudice me.

In this business you really don't start in the minor leagues and work your way up, proving yourself by self-publishing a couple, then going with a pays-in-copies small press, then a regional press, then finally breaking into the majors when they see the pure quantity of titles you list. I tell you true: where you end up tends to be very close to the level where you start.

Start at the top and work down.

Re: found it

The advocates here should be given outstanding public servant awards for this tireless effort against a literary, and I use the term loosely, grifter preying on the unsuspecting writer. If the stories pan out the way I think they will I'm certain the lid will come off this ponzi scheme for good.

All this bash this, bash that, talk serves no purpose. The crux of the problem is the business objective of the so-called publisher: to trick writers into thinking they have chance to succeed in the equation. By design they don't. Some of the rooked will need more debriefing than others since we're all different but that doesn't change the universal facts of the case. These are not debatable.

How long should the discussion continue? As long as it takes to achieve the objective. Let the march to truth go on.

Re: This is like watching the same...

Jim,
Interesting analogy on the letters to the editor 'credits." They aren't publishing credits of course, but I tossed a clip file of mine in with my news stories and the editor said it was nice I was getting publshed in the NY Times on the opinion page.

Of course this was as an expert in another field not as example of reporting credits. I would argue that they are one stage below op-eds which pay money and are hard to get.

Like all forms of vanity work no paycheck returns to the author but in the interest public service a well-written letter with a cartoon showing a trail of stumps leading to the White House isn't bad publicity either. For me anyway.

Re: This is like watching the same...

This is getting really far afield, but you can include credits from non-paying but high-prestige venues.

Publication on the Opinion page of the Times is different from being published in the Letters to the Editor column in the same issue, and way, way different from the Letters to the Editor page in the Danville Advertiser. (Note: the Danville Advertiser is a made-up example. If anyone did use a letter to the editor in that paper as a publishing credit I'm not talking about you.)

Some literary reviews pay very little indeed, but are good credits if you're selling literary fiction. Here's one thing to look for: Are stories from those venues regularly included in Year's Best anthologies or nominated for major awards?

Any credits you list should be recent and relevant. Again, leaving that section of the cover letter blank won't hurt as much as listing bottom-feeding venues.

Completely off this topic

Talk about coincidence....I am in the midst of a Lovecraft phase, and was just now doing some Internet research regarding the Ambrose Bierce short story "The Damned Thing." Lo and behold, whose website does this bring me to? None other than the one and only Mr. MacDonald's....I can't escape this board!

Re: A moment of PA relevant levity....

Victoria -

Of course you would assume that anyone who has issues with the way some of the advocates conduct themselves - has something against you personally or your site.

None of you seem to have the ability to grasp the concept that people can think PA is wrong, but also be turned off by the way this fight is being conducted.

The ends don't always justify the means. And at times the means are juvenile mean-spirited, over-the-top and probably counter-productive. Sometimes your message is totally off point or you can't see the forest for the trees. i.e. the fact that PA registered P&E as a domain name has no place in this fight - although Dave's entire first post on PW was dedicated to the harm he had personally suffered by the mean men at PA who called him bad names. This is a fight against the business practices of a company - not a schoolyard argument between to 8 year olds. And before you say that taking P&E's domain name exempifies these business practices - let me point out that when the internet first boomed, many perfectly legitimate companies registered the names of competitors etc.

And if you are going to say that the mean comments some at PA make about the advocates represents the company - then I can only point out that the mean things that you as individuals say about PA and its authors and employees represents your organizations in the exact same way. Being on the right side of a fight - does not mean you can act with impunity. You are subject to the same scrutiny of your words and deeds as those on the other side of the field.

This board has been up for a year - and it is not the only board or the only site that caters to Anti-PA sentiment.

And yet, until Dee and Beck showed up. None of you were able to get press attention. None of you were able to get the victims to organize, band together, sign a petition, start a letter writing campaign to the proper authorities.

Did any of you ever bother to ask yourselves why that is? Did you even try? I never saw you try to mobilize the troops, but this is the only board I checked out. And if you did try, why were you so ineffective? Why didn't PW or AP investigate back then? Could it possibly have something to do with how you conduct yourselves?

Those who have seen the light, obviously appreciate your efforts - but perhaps you would be doing them an even greater service - if you tried to put their plight into some sort of perspective.

DJames Becca and Dee seem to have perspective and ironically they are the ones who are moving forward with their writing careers. Coincidence? I think not.

Re: Talent v. Responibility

Simon Says many writers moved on with their careers and still filed complaints, wrote letters and so on. Some of us can do more than one story at a time. In the beginning, almost nothing existed on the rep of PA. There is now and this effort is the reason why. That and an exponential growth of authormill ejects who now know the truth.

Letters to the editor about PA and other issues are a good idea for conveying a message. They aren't qualifications for writing for the paper as I said. Those are two very different objectives with different requirements.

The PA argument will end when they do. It's point source pollution.

Re: Re: A moment of PA relevant levity....

Divide and conquer, right?

Has anyone noticed that I don't go around condemning the other advocates because I don't always approve of their methods? In fact, I doubt if anyone has noticed that I didn't even condemn Mark York when he was allowed to post. Yes, he was vocal and indignant, but I felt he had a right to be.

I still don't intend to condemn the other advocates and I really don't care which of them succeeds in bringing PA to account for its misdeeds. It's taken a lot of time to build this groundswell of opposition and I'm not going to be the one who lets PA escape by bickering with those I see fighting against PA.

Re: Another Lie

Okay, Jim. HB does tend to use that line often.

And those who believe him tend to quote it.

There are two different statements here:

A) Complaining about PA will hurt you with legitimate publishers.

B) Publishing with PA won't help you with legitimate publishers.

The first isn't true, and is used by PA supporters to frighten the disaffected into silence.

The second is true, and is used by PA detractors to dissuade writers from going with PA "to get a foot in the door."

Will you agree that allowing yourself to be distracted from writing your next book will hurt you, whether it be by running around trying to arrange signings, playing Sim City, or posting on messageboards?

(And if you do have a book launch, with your family and friends in attendance, remember that it's a celebration -- a party. Selling books isn't the main goal. Your sales come from somewhere else.)

Re: Mutual Respect

From what I've seen to date ignoring HapiSofi would be a mistake.

Thank you for your kind words but...

Yes I did organize the press blitz through something we called Alert The Media About PublishAmerica which took place November 16, 2004 and has generated the PW story, the interest by the Associated Press, The Washington Post and an additional paper which I won't name right now.

But it wasn't just me. I think the reason it caught the media's attention is that there were probably between 30 to 50 PA authors with bad PublishAmerica experiences who each contacted the media list provided. The media list was comprised of book editors at major papers and news services. Each one was contacted by name.

I can't tell you the exact number of authors who participated because it was up to each individual to decide if they wanted to participate and up to them what they said in their news release.

I gave the press copies of the PA contract, the termination agreement, the PA response to my Better Business Bureau complaint, and the emails PA sent 'discussing' and I use that term loosely, our request to get the rights to our book back. Both Brian Hill, my co-author and myself were interviewed. Other authors provided the documentation they felt comfortable with.

Additionally several of the experts on this board provided their expertise.

I wouldn't have attempted the media blitz without this board. I would have felt too isolated, that perhaps I was the only author having problems with PA.

Rebecca deserves the entire credit for the petition to the attorney general.

A.C. Crispin, Jenna Glatzer, Victoria Strauss, Dave, Jim, Hapisoft, Edward3, D James, well the list goes on, (if I missed you I apologize) without your support I don't think I would have done anything.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com

Challenge for Simon

Okay, ENOUGH.

I hereby challenge Simon to go back to last January, that is, January of 2004, one calendar year, and look up every post made by Writer Beware (that is, by either me or Victoria Strauss). Simon, if you find mean, nasty posts that make fun of PA authors and dump on their writing, and those posts attempt to intimidate and demean those who complain about Publish America, please copy and paste them onto this board. We'll let Jenna and the majority of the Absolute Write posters see whether you have spoken the truth.

I want to see Simon's proof that Victoria's and my posts here have repeatedly bashed PA authors, and, thus, have had a negative effect on the effort to bring the truth to the world about Publish America. If Victoria and I have said mean things about PA authors, or their writing, Simon, don't just spout vague remonstrations, PROVE IT before Jenna and this entire board.

In the event Simon can PROVE that Victoria and I have been responsible for nasty posts bashing PA authors since January 2004 (I speak of the Bewares Board, as I don't post on the "Take it Outside" board which is specifically for flaming, as I understand it), as Chair of Writer Beware, I hereby pledge that Writer Beware will remove all official presence from Absolute Write and the Bewares Board. I believe this goal was Simon's intention when he made that last post of his.

Victoria may wish to stay on here as herself, or as a sysop, should she choose, but not in her official capacity of Webmistress of Writer Beware. As for me, I'll vanish without a trace.

Enough with the inferences and vague accusations, Simon. It's time to put up or shut up.

-Ann C. Crispin
Chair, SFWA Committee on Writing Scams
Writer Beware
www.writerbeware.com

re:Challenge for Simon

This is ridiculous!
The vast majority of the group has let Simon succeed in a point I brought up on pg210:
Quote:
"All posters seem to have an opinion on publishing, P.A., P.A. authors, authors in general, business, quality, acceptable references, yet ...when we say we're trying to help those that need, or at very least should be helped, these opinions side track the boards discussion.
On top of the beliefs of how things should be done in publishing, we all seem to have different impressions as to how to present them. When one poster doesn't like what was said or how it was said, an unnecessary conflict arises. "

Within his posts he follows the same unwritten rules as us all...

He's trying his damnedest to influence the posters on this board to think and act like he does. This crosses the boundaries of individuallity.

...he's in the same catagory of thinking as HB, or other tyrants of past history (hint!)

Look at this.. even I'm off P.A. topic!

Simon, yes, with all due respect you do have good points. Yes, you have made some people think twice.
I find that the thread right now is more entertaining to you, than a benefit to authors.
Posts from other boards are still going to be copied and pasted, people are still going to scream at each other, but, using your own words,...." ..if that's what makes them happy,... why don't you leave them(us) alone"......???????

"JAMES, how's about a "Meanwhile, back at...."

Pictures

For anyone who's ever wondered what Larry Clopper and Willem Meiners look like, there's a site with their photos at URL pricelineandthemedia.com/...outpa.html .

By the way, SimonSays, you forgot to mention that unlike those other domain grabbers, PA sent me an extortion letter with their demands to meet if I didn't want to see them use those domains. You know something, that sounds deliberate to me. It wasn't something just to feed more traffic to themselves at the expense of their competition. So, yes, it goes to show a pattern of criminal behavior.

Re: Re: A moment of PA relevant levity....

Simon,
I know you're talking, but all I'm hearing is Blah, blah, blah... Say it ONCE and move on. I'm with Dave - let's not pit ourselves against each other. I respect your right to say whatever it is you want to say, but I also respect the rights of all the other to say what they want, too.

Again, why are you so concerned over how others conduct themselves? Are you the board behavior police?
And, like others, I read a few lines of your posts, but then they all start to sound like each other, so I just skip them.

Where's James... we need a "Meanwhile, back at PA..." I think.

I think the express reason that...

...Simon is here is to sow discontent, and to get the train off the track. Think about it - we're doing well, garnering a lot of attention re the PA situation, and this ultimately hurts PA. The most blatant PA advocates have spit fire and venom towards us, and to no effect. So now, it seems to me, we are witnessing a different strategy, a strategy of trying to undermine the board itself through all of this "what we should say, what we shouldn't say" bull****. Most normal board participants would state their feelings, guage the reaction, and then react accordingly. If they didn't like the tone of the board they would go elsewhere. If they liked it they would stay. Frankly, I don't think you could run Simon off, because his purpose is to do exactly what he's doing, and he's going to continue doing it as long as we allow it to be effective. Bottom line, it's up to us to decide whether or not to keep responding to it, or to move forward with something more productive. I vote for more productive.

Challenge for Everybody

Ann -

I was not singling Victoria out for her behavior - to be honest she does not get down in the mud very often (although I do have a recollection - which could be incorrect - of her having nasty responsels to some of my early posts) I have neither the time nor the inclination to go back over the 200 pages of this thread - but feel free to do so if you would like.

The only reason I addressed Victoria at all - is because she is the one who claimed that the person who referred to the behavior exhibited by some on this board to at times resemble a witchhunt and vendetta - was someone with a personal grudge against her and writers beware. In truth, the person I was referring to has neither - but that is neither here nor there.

You are totally incorrect in your assumption that my agenda was to get Writers Bewares official presence off his board. I had never even thought of such a thing. My goal, and now my challenge to all of you is that each person individually assess their own behavior and cease the petty, childish, behaviors and present yourselves in a professional, mature manner.

I am not just talking about being mean or nasty or insulting - I am also referring to such behaviors as dissecting the PA board threads, getting amazon rankings for individual PA authors who claim they are making sales, that kind of thing. An author researching PA does not need that kind of information to make a decision. I am talking about the PW thread and rising to the bait. You have no idea how just about everyone on that board looks to the outside world. They look like whiny children - it hurts your cause, it doesn't help it when you argue with someone who's sole intention is to make you all look bad. And whether he's Meiner's or not, he is succeeding - he is smart enough not to post under his real name and repeatedly gets people to engage him, to hurl silly insults back at him when he hurls his own. If people stopped responding, he' have stopped posting long ago. And anyone who checks out that board now, is not getting any helpful information - it is for entertainment purposes only "wow, look at these fools." Which is too bad.

There is something to be said about remaining above the fray.

To be fair to you, Ann, you seem to do so most if not all the time. And Victoria usually does, although she has her moments. The same cannot be said for others.

As hard as it may be for you and others to believe, my goal is to help you. To keep you on point and to get you all to be a little more objective about your behaviors so that you do not let emotions get in the way. People have every right to be angry, but when you communicate out of anger rather than out of a more dispassionate place - you wind up communicating the emotion and the message gets overpowered by the anger itself. This has happened on this board far more than it should.

Re: Re: A moment of PA relevant levity....

Simon, I no longer think, as I did when you first showed up here, that you're a PublishAmerica sockpuppet. That doesn't mean I acquit you of being an idiosyncratically motivated troll. And I don't know what's gotten up your nose lately, but I really think you ought to see a specialist about having it extracted.

You keep saying that this thread should long since have ended, but you've been an active participant in it for months and months.

You keep saying it should be enough to just give the bare-bones basics of why PA is a bad idea, even though former and current PA authors keep popping up to say that this forum has been extremely helpful and encouraging to them.

You keep saying it should be enough to just give the bare-bones basics of why PA is a bad idea, when you're supposedly a fiction writer. Are you really going to argue that pictures and conversations and ongoing narratives add nothing to the exposition?

You keep talking about how the fact that we're not all agreeing with you must mean we're unable to grasp what you're saying. Allow me to suggest that there's a simpler and more obvious explanation.

(Formal notice: I'm not arguing with any of the other writers or AW participants mentioned in this post. I'm only arguing with Simon. Let them come out of this with no more damage to the respect in which they're held than that incurred by having been used as examples without their prior consent.)

You keep invoking professionalism when the people you're flaming are professionals, a thing which (IIRC) you're only alleged to be. More recently, you've identified Dee, Becca, and D James as "the ones who are moving forward with their writing careers," when the people you're flaming include me, Victoria, Ann Crispin, and Jim Macdonald, and you've left other published writers -- Jenna, for instance -- out of the reckoning entirely.

By the way, how's your career coming along?

You've also recently said, <blockquote>And yet, until Dee and Beck showed up. None of you were able to get press attention. None of you were able to get the victims to organize, band together, sign a petition, start a letter writing campaign to the proper authorities.</blockquote>I take it that means you don't know that circulating petitions is the standard example of an unproductive political action, and that you don't recognize that basic information-sharing and consciousness-raising activities like this thread you so deplore are essential to any kind of "banding together."

I take it that also means you have no idea how much public contact work Ann, Victoria, Dave, and Jim do. (HapiSofi doesn't do public contact work, but heesh has some useful private contacts.)

By the way, what useful things have you done lately?

Finally, you keep saying you're just trying to tell us how others perceive us here, but you've never once told us who those others are, how you became acquainted with their opinions, or why you should be the one conveying them to us.

I'll speak to that last point.

I've been participating in venues like this one for more years than you'd ever guess. During that time I've seen a lot of arguments, and a lot of different ways to argue. One learns to recognize patterns.

It's been a very, very long time since I've had any patience with that variety of the argument from authority which cites as its backup certain Unnamed Others who aren't participating in the discussion, but are nevertheless intimately familiar with all facets of it; who entirely support the speaker's arguments, even newly-branched-off arguments that are only hours old, leaving one to wonder how they knew to tell the speaker in advance what their positions on them would be; and who are evidently quite articulate on the subject under discussion, but are somehow unable to voice their opinions themselves, thus forcing the speaker to public-spiritedly convey their opinions for them.

What next? Are you going to tell us that the lurkers support you in email?

I continue to wonder what prompts your recent changes in behavior. Can it be that you've gone the self-publishing route, and are feeling defensive about it? Or if you do have a new guru, as I speculated earlier, I have to wonder whether it's someone who's primarily self-published.

But who knows? Maybe it's just the contractors driving you crazy with a kitchen remodeling job that was supposed to be done before Thanksgiving. Whatever it is, do please get well soon.

Addendum: I posted the above, went back to look at the thread, and found SimonSays had already posted again:<blockquote>As hard as it may be for you and others to believe, my goal is to help you. To keep you on point and to get you all to be a little more objective about your behaviors so that you do not let emotions get in the way.</blockquote>I don't think I can take much more of this. I've always hated watching even fictional characters embarrass themselves in public; but this is someone real, and watching Simon do it is more than I can stand. I'll be back later. And Simon, may the Little Baby Jesus open your eyes and shut your mouth.

Re: Challenge for Everybody

Okay, let's all remember that we're not supposed to collect evidence such as sales numbers to refute PA's claims. We're not allowed to read the PA boards to see for ourselves how PA mistreats its authors and misleads them with false information and so forth.

Gee, if we go along with that tactic, there wouldn't be much of a case now, would there? That makes me wonder just whose side you are really on, SimonSays. From my point of view, it looks like you're on our backs, but you're not on our side.

Re: The fact of it is...

Hey Dave,

According to Archive.org, that very interesting article about PA by Danny Hatch has been up for over a year and was up long before he was to receive his first royalty statement.

I'm curious how he feels now.

Re: Challenge for Everybody

This discussion is getting way out of hand, and I'd really like to see it end. However, since I'm one of the subjects of discussion, I'm going to exclude myself from moderator-type action, lest there be any impression of bias.

>>The only reason I addressed Victoria at all - is because she is the one who claimed that the person who referred to the behavior exhibited by some on this board to at times resemble a witchhunt and vendetta - was someone with a personal grudge against her and writers beware.<<

I didn't say personal grudge against me. I have no idea what this person thinks of me. I said "particular dislike of Writer Beware". I also said "if it's the person I'm thinking of." If it is the person I'm thinking of (and from the vendetta/witchhunt statement, I suspect I'm correct), this person does indeed dislike Writer Beware, and has said so.

Other than this, I see no purpose in responding, except to say that years before there was a PA thread on the Absolute Write board, years before the other pros who participate here had ever heard of PA, years before most of the unhappy PA authors who also participate here signed their contracts, Ann and I (and Dave too) were warning writers in public and in private about PA's poor contract and vanity publishing past.

- Victoria