New Songwriter (Need Serious Help, Yo)

There's a bunch of us songwriters at these two sites.

This one's active in February (that's when the songwriting challenge is active - the forums are active in January through maybe June or so):
http://fawm.org

And this one's active all summer:
http://fiftyninety.fawmers.org/
Feel free to join in now! Your questions might be good over there. There are peeple of all abilities over there, so if (when) you hear a song that blows you away, don't be intimidated. It's a really friendly place, a good bit like AW.

The Tools page here gives different prompts for lyrics and song structures that you might find useful:
http://fawm.org/tools/

Your observations sound good so far! It might be interesting to write down the structures of common pop or your favorite songs, and see how they vary, and what patterns there might be.

The structure of my songs depends mainly on how many verses I can squeeze out. Too often I declare a song 'complete' with just verse-chorus-verse-chorus.

And of course there's this infamous Youtube video that shows your chord progressions don't have to be original (language warning):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pidokakU4I

I haven't done as much this year (I've yet to "complete" a FAWM or 50/90, but previous years' 10-20 songs a year is a lot better than nothing), and haven't written anything so far this summer. Here's the few I did last February:
http://fawm.org/fawmers/ben/

Rayn, I just wanted to give you a tip that always seems to help new songwriters , before you get your "chops" in order.

Take your favorite song, be it one for the radio or whatever--a song more on the commercial side would be best for this.

Replace each line of the songs lyrics with a line of your own, trying to match the rhythm of the line and the length. Do the same all through the song, for the bridge, chorus etc.

Then write a melody to your words, and a chord progression. For the new chords, use a triad that work well together, C, F, & G, E, A, B etc. Take your time and do the best you can.

Once you get comfortable with this kind of a "template" it will soon become natural to you. It will teach you about different song structures; verse verse chorus, or verse, chorus, verse, chorus, or AABA & ABAB as songwriters say.

if you want to write songs people appreciate, this is a quick way to learn how. Our ears are sort of attuned to a certain structure, and this is a great way to see it laid out for you, and to learn structures. Good luck!

I've been writing songs for around fifteen years now, and I'm still learning. That's a good thing - you learn every day.

I strongly second the idea to analyse other people's songs. I've done this many a time - take a song you really like and work out the structure and the things the writer has done that make you like it. Then start out to write something that mirrors that structure. The key for me is that if you feel it going in a different direction, let it. That's your own creative instinct taking over - don't get in the way of it.

I would also suggest listening widely. Listen to genres you don't necessarily "like" and certainly wouldn't consider writing. With a critical ear you can learn a huge amount of tricks and techniques that you can apply to your own art.

Another thing I would say is to beware of "pretty" and "nice". Go for the right chord or note even if it's not the sweetest sounding one - plenty of "wrong" notes in classic songs that are actually right. You'll know in your gut when it works or not, and your instinct for this will get stronger and stronger over time.

Also, never throw a song away. Almost every song I've ever written has had one chord, hook, turn, or other aspect that I like, and even if the song ends up being shelved, I'll find a way to make use of that thing I liked somewhere else. Write down or record everything you write and keep old or abandoned things in a folder. When you're feeling stuck, go back to it and find those things you liked again. Some of my favourite songs I've done are cut-and-shut jobs of things written separately and then stuck together - you get better at hiding the joins with experience.

The last thing I'd say is to learn some basic music theory if you don't already have that. Knowing the rules is immensely helpful (especially so you'll know if you're breaking them ), and it gives you a common language with other songwriters.

Hey Ryan,

I've just joined here as a noob for some writing tips, but I'm primarily a songwriter and hang at Just Plain Folks. http://www.jpfolks.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/cfrm

Just like here, it's a great supportive network, wether you're just starting out, or are a seasoned pro. Please drop by and say gidday ( say niteshift sent you ) and all your questions should be fully answered

cheers, niteshift

I seem to be in the minority here as I write most of my songs by feel - I start by messing around with an interesting chord progression, riff, or whatever, and usually after I play that part over and over for several minutes the sound of the next part pops into my head. Then I just have to figure out how to articulate it and gradually a structure develops. This may or may not be helpful to you, but that's my perspective. Personally I can never plan a song out or it sounds too forced.

Definitely record any of your song ideas you want to work with - it's different when you hear a song you've written while you're not playing it, and it can help you make better judgments as to what parts work and what parts don't. It will also help you figure out harmonies and counterpoints for a second guitar, whether you're in a band with another guitar player or just plan on adding a second track yourself. It's good for working out vocals as well - I like to record my songs without a vocal track, then burn them on a CD for the car so I can try various vocal melodies while I'm driving around to work or the store or whatever.

When it comes to lyrics, I do a lot of stream-of-consciousness journal writing with other music playing in the background, and I find that it often develops a certain flow; when it's time to think of some lyrics I comb back through my journals until I find a couple of lines I like, then expand upon that theme to fit the music I already have. I'm generally not someone who can just sit down, play some chords and start singing - I have to have the song structure in place first before I can start thinking about vocals. That's not to say the structure can't change once I decide how the vocals will go, but being a guitar player first and a vocalist second the song and its specific rhythm & melody are the starting point for me.

Finally, it can be tremendously helpful to have another musician to work with - my drummer is fantastic when it comes to arrangement, he's basically the editor for all my songs. He knows when to cut the fat and when to extend a part a few more bars or when to insert an interesting drum fill to transition from one part to the next. Which is exactly what I need to keep the song flowing rhythmically, something a lot of solo guitar players have trouble with. If you can find someone to work with who's of a similar mind musically, they can be an invaluable asset to your songwriting.

Lots of good ideas here; I think I probably should have mentioned that it depends on what style of music you are writing. There's a world of difference between writing a pop or country hit to the accepted standards of the genre's form, and writing prog-rock, or free form jazz. Other than that, it's all good!

Vortex Theory said:

I seem to be in the minority here as I write most of my songs by feel - I start by messing around with an interesting chord progression, riff, or whatever, and usually after I play that part over and over for several minutes the sound of the next part pops into my head. Then I just have to figure out how to articulate it and gradually a structure develops. This may or may not be helpful to you, but that's my perspective. Personally I can never plan a song out or it sounds too forced.

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That's very similar to my usual process - I annoy the hell out of my wife just looping things again and again until my brain tells me what should go next

The thing is that I *know* structure, in as much as I've played around with so many different bits and bobs over the years that I'm comfortable with what I'm doing. So I know I can trust my instinct to just take over. For a beginner, I would strongly recommend getting the basics down, so that when you want to try working organically you have the tools and knowledge you need at your fingertips.

onesecondglance said:

For a beginner, I would strongly recommend getting the basics down, so that when you want to try working organically you have the tools and knowledge you need at your fingertips.

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Very true! I never really learned the basics of songwriting per se, but I did have a working understanding of music theory by the time I tried to write my first song. The rest I learned by osmosis, playing covers of songs I liked and emulating those elements in my own songs.

That's another thing worth mentioning: don't worry if your first few songs seem overly derivative of your influences - it's like that for everyone at first. You have to practice writing music for a while before you start to develop your own unique voice.

Here's a list of challenges, these are mostly writing-related, but there are several songwriting challenges not already mentioned in this thread:
http://www.wikiwrimo.org/wiki/List_of_timed_artistic_challenges

When I want to develop new music, I just play. I don't worry about anything. I just go for it, zone out. I don't worry about switching key or staying in time, nothing like that. Then from out of the blue I'll suddenly piece together some riff or chord progression that sounds decent, then I'll take the time to develop it a little more.

I've written a lot of songs. I don't know how it's done.