Is a Dumb Question thread ok?

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kuwisdelu

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Yes. Those who think anime and manga characters look more caucasian than Japanese either need to see more real-life Japanese people or watch this informative video. Hint: not all Asians look alike.

As an addendum, I'd like to point out that no one thinks the Simpsons are Asian just because they're yellow.
 

mirandashell

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Ok. I'm about to reveal myself as someone who knows nothing about anime or manga.

I read your link on Red/Blue Oni. Did a/m grow out of traditional Japanese stories?
 

backslashbaby

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I would have thought Ginger White was part NA if I knew she were from certain states like GA or NC or the deep south. Or Black + NA + White, which is also common.

But if she were from Italy or NYC, etc, I'd have no clue. Mediterranean?

She doesn't look completely white to me, if that makes sense. I'd have no idea whether she felt that way or not about herself.

In reading, I don't default to White, but I seek out books from so many places and points of view that it would be silly to default to it. I'm sure I did default to white younger.
 

kuwisdelu

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Ok. I'm about to reveal myself as someone who knows nothing about anime or manga.

I read your link on Red/Blue Oni. Did a/m grow out of traditional Japanese stories?

I'm not sure what you mean. Anime and manga are written by Japanese, so it's natural they would use tropes from their traditional stories, just as Western storytellers call on tropes from traditional Western stories.
 

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Many years ago I had a conversation with a black girl friend of mine and made the comment that I wanted to meet a guy that was 'tall, dark, and handsome'. She swooned and said 'oh, me too.' For a few seconds I stopped and had the thought that what she meant was she wanted to meet a black guy and here I was talking about a dark haired, tanned guy. It gave me a chuckle at the time. Then in later life I found out she was drawn to white guys. So I guess the joke was on me.

From then on I did not assume anything when folks make those type of statements. I think each of us has our own 'mind picture' of statements when it comes to races.

I know when I was real young and went to a black persons home the first time I kind of had a mind opening experience. I was 'amazed' that they had the same type of house that I lived in. I know that sound stupid but when you consider that many other countries have different styles it made sense at the time. Needless to say, I was brought up in a very small world with very slanted views.

I have beta read some work for some on here that stressed the color of their MC and even to the degree of what nationality of even the sales clerks. I pointed out that that was a bit much as it really makes no difference what color the sales clerk is. I guess we take things to extremes in our efforts to be correct.

Look at how for years the good guys wear 'white hats' and the bad guys wear 'black hats' in westerns. Who came up with that? When we write about the 'hired help' what do you think of first off? Or the Asian restaurant. (One of the best ones in Tucson is owned and run by a Mexican family...lol)

Some where along the line we have been set up to see things a certain way and since 'white man' did most of the early visual things we now seem to see that in most of the other venues of things.

All this is my two cents and is only worth about that much. Interesting thread.
 

mirandashell

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Sorry, I should have explained that better.

It's not so much tropes but the fact that, to me in my ignorance, it seems extremely layered. And it's something that has to be learned to be really appreciated if you're not Japanese. That right?
 

kuwisdelu

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Sorry, I should have explained that better.

It's not so much tropes but the fact that, to me in my ignorance, it seems extremely layered. And it's something that has to be learned to be really appreciated if you're not Japanese. That right?

Yes, there are a lot of anime and manga tropes and Japanese cultural conventions that are very difficult to translate for a Western audience.
 
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missesdash

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Yes. Those who think anime and manga characters look more caucasian than Japanese either need to see more real-life Japanese people or watch this informative video. Hint: not all Asians look alike.

Eh this video doesn't really address what I meant. Not all Asians look alike. But japanese people have much more homogeneous features than other, more mixed ethnic groups. They don't all look alike, but they don't have as much natural variance as I see in anime. As in, no they don't have blonde hair and blue eyes. I don't usually think of animated characters as wearing contacts or having dyed hair, so that could be another reason.

The facial features, for me at least, don't really matter.
I'll accept that they're japanese if that's how the artist intended for them to be seen, obviously. But it's a matter of creative license.
 

kuwisdelu

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As in, no they don't have blonde hair and blue eyes. I don't usually think of animated characters as wearing contacts or having dyed hair, so that could be another reason.

Did you miss the part where it's very common for Japanese youth to dye their hair? In lots of the anime with more realistic hair colors, it's generally assumed characters with blond hair have dyed it, and in some anime this is even a plot point, such as in Toradora! or Clannad, where certain characters' dyeing their hair blond become important issues used for characterization. In other anime, hair can span the color spectrum and include blue, purple, pink, and green hair, which yes, is generally more along the lines of creative license, but doesn't really have anything to do with race. I wouldn't say a blue-haired character looks any more caucasian than Japanese.
 
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Jehhillenberg

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Did you miss the part where it's very common for Japanese youth to dye their hair? In lots of the anime with more realistic hair colors, it's generally assumed characters with blond hair have dyed it, and in some anime this is even a plot point, for example in Toradora! or Clannad, where certain characters' dyeing their hair blond become important issues. In other anime, hair can span the color spectrum and include blue, purple, pink, and green hair, which yes, is generally more along the lines of creative license, but doesn't really have anything to do with race. I definitely say a blue-haired character looks any more caucasian than Japanese.

Now I am aware of this. Only because I have a brother who is into manga and anime. I myself, am less knowledgeable about it all.
 

missesdash

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Did you miss the part where it's very common for Japanese youth to dye their hair?

That's actually what I was responding to. I know japanese youth dye their hair. But I don't assume an animated character has dyed hair and contacts. So I take the distinctly Aryan features at face value.

I think that makes sense. If I show you a drawing of someone with brown skin, you aren't going to assume they're a white person with a very dark tan. Your initial assumption will be that they are a person of color.

You need context to be able to identify them as otherwise and for context you have to be interested in learning more/watching anime.
 

kuwisdelu

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That's actually what I was responding to. I know japanese youth dye their hair. But I don't assume an animated character has dyed hair and contacts. So I take the distinctly Aryan features at face value.

I think that makes sense. If I show you a drawing of someone with brown skin, you aren't going to assume they're a white person with a very dark tan. Your initial assumption will be that they are a person of color.

Err, I have, in fact, seen plenty of drawings of someone whose skin was drawn as brown and thought it looked like a white person with a tan.

You need context to be able to identify them as otherwise and for context you have to be interested in learning more/watching anime.

Huh? If I know it takes place on Japan, that's kind of enough context to assume the characters are Japanese unless otherwise indicated. I don't know why one would assume a classroom full of kids in Hokkaido are a bunch of white people just because a few of them have blond hair. ETA2: Even more so if some of them have purple, blue, pink, or green hair, too. That doesn't exactly scream caucasian to me.

ETA: Actually, in a few anime, there are some characters with much darker skin. I couldn't at first quite figure out why they were so much darker. It was clear to me they weren't supposed to be black, because despite the dark skin tone, well, they didn't look black. It wasn't until later I figured out they were ganguro.
 
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Jehhillenberg

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You know how white people often see MCs as white people by default. Do people of colour do the same? Or is your default your own colour? Or do you not have a default?

I'm interested in how this works.

I think it depends on what you know, your surroundings/environment, and your upbringing. I live in the South, Alabama to be specific.

I admit, I automatically have a mental picture of the MC being white when I pick up a book. Unless it's explicitly stated or implied otherwise. For me, it largely depends on if I'm familiar with the author's work, the author, and the world created.
 

kuwisdelu

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I don't really assume any race if it's not clear. I'll assume the author's race if I know it. Assuming the main character is native American until otherwise indicated would just be statistically silly...
 

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If I know it takes place on Japan, that's kind of enough context to assume the characters are Japanese unless otherwise indicated. I don't know why one would assume a classroom full of kids in Hokkaido are a bunch of white people just because a few of them have blond hair.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to say that if a character's name is Japanese, I'm going to assume they're Japanese, no matter the hair or eye color.

Now I'm sure some people reading this post are saying to themselves, "Oh well, that's obvious!" But you'd be surprised...
 

missesdash

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I was only explaining my thinking as someone who isn't into the culture as a whole. It's just annoying to constantly hear "oh my god, why do people think this character is white?"

And the answer is actually really simple: statistically, a person with blonde hair and blue eyes is very very likely to be white. I don't think it gets much simpler. I should probably be embarrassed about this, but I definitely never assumed they all take place in Japan. Sometimes there's just an ambiguously rural setting and decidedly japanese food. Eh, that could be anywhere.

I don't know if miyazaki movies count as "anime" but a lot of his characters are definitely european. And I'm sure there's some context here to explain why his characters are obviously european and the other aren't. But if you hold them up side to side :Shrug:
 

missesdash

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Yeah, I'm gonna have to say that if a character's name is Japanese, I'm going to assume they're Japanese, no matter the hair or eye color.

Now I'm sure some people reading this post are saying to themselves, "Oh well, that's obvious!" But you'd be surprised...

Ah well I'm guilty of not knowing their names.
 

Alan Yee

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I don't really assume any race if it's not clear. I'll assume the author's race if I know it. Assuming the main character is native American until otherwise indicated would just be statistically silly...

Likewise. I would never assume that protagonists are half Chinese and half Western European white unless stated otherwise. Though because I am also gay in addition to being multiracial, I think I naturally gravitate to different books than the majority o readers. Most of the books and short stories I read or write have non-white and/or non-straight protagonists. And prior to reading books, I usually already know if the protagonist is a PoC or QUILTBAG or a QUILTBAG PoC.

As for short stories, just reading through a webzine, print mag, collection, or anthology... I suppose I do assume the MC is white unless otherwise indicated, unless I know the author is a PoC or has written numerous PoC characters before.
 

kuwisdelu

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I was only explaining my thinking as someone who isn't into the culture as a whole. It's just annoying to constantly hear "oh my god, why do people think this character is white?"

And the answer is actually really simple: statistically, a person with blonde hair and blue eyes is very very likely to be white. I don't think it gets much simpler. I should probably be embarrassed about this, but I definitely never assumed they all take place in Japan. Sometimes there's just an ambiguously rural setting and decidedly japanese food. Eh, that could be anywhere.

Well, as pointed out above, if a character's name is Ryuji or Shinji, I think it's safe to assume he's Japanese. If it's Simon or Charlotte, I'd be comfortable in assuming they're maybe not Japanese. If you watch anime with a multicultural cast of characters, it's not that difficult to tell who is who.

I don't know if miyazaki movies count as "anime" but a lot of his characters are definitely european. And I'm sure there's some context here to explain why his characters are obviously european and the other aren't. But if you hold them up side to side :Shrug:

In anime with multiracial casts, it's usually not difficult to see the difference. In anime whose cast is primarily non-Japanese, they are often not drawn very differently from the Japanese characters, because that's just the art style. They're used to drawing Japanese characters.

ETA: I'm not saying that I don't see how one could make that mistake. My main argument was along the same lines as the video I posted, that looking at anime and manga characters, and believing there's no way they could be anything but white is not only rather ethnocentric but also incorrect if you actually look at the artwork and the people. And those who believe that and use it to say Japanese people want to be white is downright stupid and racist. At a glance, I can see how one could mistake an Asian character for a white one, or vice versa.
 
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missesdash

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Well, as pointed out above, if a character's name is Ryuji or Shinji, I think it's safe to assume he's Japanese. If it's Simon or Charlotte, I'd be comfortable in assuming they're maybe not Japanese. If you watch anime with a multicultural cast of characters, it's not that difficult to tell who is who.

I agree with this, obviously. I was only speaking about how they look. I don't know their names. I just see scenes in passing. Hence the whole "I have no idea what I'm talking about but they look white" angle.

In anime with multiracial casts, it's usually not difficult to see the difference. In anime whose cast is primarily non-Japanese, they are often not drawn very differently from the Japanese characters, because that's just the art style. They're used to drawing Japanese characters.

This is helpful because, again, it offers context. Now I know that characters are sometimes drawn exactly like japanese characters, but aren't japanese. Of course that also explains why I get them mixed up :D
 

kuwisdelu

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This is helpful because, again, it offers context. Now I know that characters are sometimes drawn exactly like japanese characters, but aren't japanese. Of course that also explains why I get them mixed up :D

Check out the cast of Code Geass. The differences between the Japanese characters and the Brittannians living in Japan is subtle but noticeable. The difference between Japanese characters and the overseas Brittanians and the royal family are far less subtle, and the more foreign the character is supposed the feel, the more angular the faces and more square the jaws become, from the various princes to the utterly box-shaped emperor.

In fact, in that show, there is probably a direct correlation between the squareness of a character's jaw and how evil he will end up being.

ETA: Which is closely related to why characters in anime with a primarily non-Japanese cast are often drawn as similar to Japanese characters in other shows.
 
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cryaegm

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As in, no they don't have blonde hair and blue eyes.
My friend is Japanese and she has blonde hair and blue/green eyes. *Shrugs.* She's mixed, but I think she's more Japanese than whatever else she's mixed with (she told me once, but I can't remember it all; I know she's 1/8 black, but that's it....). Yeah, it's not very common, but still happens, especially if one is mixed.

(I won't use myself because I don't have blonde hair anymore. It turned brown, but I had blonde hair when I was little. Plus my eyes are gray.)

ETA for above ^: Didn't read the rest of thread until now. Sorry if I sounded like I was hostile, I just wanted to note that someone who is Japanese, though it's more likely if they're mixed, can have blonde hair and blue eyes naturally; it's just not really really common as someone who is say, white.

ETA: Do I automatically assume a character is white if their race is not mentioned? I don't think I do. Unless the description hints at the person as being white, otherwise I won't assume they are.

Oh, and although offtopic, a game that deals with Japanese mythology is Okami. Blue oni and red oni reminded me a lot of it.
 
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missesdash

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I think "some Japanese people are mixed" goes without saying. Obviously if they're mixed with a more Aryan ethnicity they can have the features of that ethnicity. But I meant ethnically Japanese.

Your friend isn't an exception to the rule because her "white" features don't come from her Japanese heritage. Someone who is half Japanese and half black can have dark brown skin. The possibilities are endless when people mix.

But then they're mixed.
 
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