Sexism in Debates

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robjvargas

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Whenever this subject or its relations comes up, the question arises of whether this is so serious an accusation that it is actively dangerous to toss it around.

I'm curious as to why. What is so extreme about a claim that a pattern of behavior is culturally attached to a subgroup of a culture?

I wouldn't agree with dangerous. But a lot of terms like this seem to engender defensive responses that derail whatever conversation was in progress.

I don't like them for exactly that reason. Mansplaining is a bit on the edge of that, because it's an explanation of a behavior, but seems to be attached to a kind of personality as well.

Of course, sometimes a conversation *should* be derailed, and put into a lockbox 27 stories underground. But that's a conversation for another time.
 

William Haskins

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yup... mansplaining is a real thing, although an insipid term that cheapens perception of the offense, and it's condescending and it's bullshit.

i pity the dumb motherfuckers who try it with mrs. haskins. and my daughter is cut from the same cloth.

an important point, however. while women have, and deserve, the same rights as men to hold opinions, theories and ideas... and express them with vigor... women also have the same capacity as men, as a percentage, to be absolute fucking morons. so there are plausible scenarios in which the lack of deference is a response to intellect rather than sex.

in this regard, equality affords one sex no more deference than the other.
 
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Gale Haut

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I have major concerns with Solsnit's essay and with the concept as everyone is describing it here. I can't see a way around viewing this word as a tool to marginalize a group of people.

Is it ever really appropriate to Other a group based on sex and gender stereotypes with a pejorative term?
 
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Ahhh, I see the problem. You're missing the most important concept of them all! Hub-cover.

After teaching my wife to drive a stick shift, I decided for the health of my marriage to farm out certain tasks. As a husband, I would cover my behind. Hence the beginning of hub-cover.

When my wife began applying for her concealed carry permit, she was to immerse herself (all at once) into combat shooting in an indoor range with the strict, no nonsense safety rules of a range officer.

I took the officer aside and explained my belief that there are just some things a husband should not teach his wife. Using this principle, my wife was chewing out the 10-ring inside of 30 minutes.

Cowardly? Oh, my, YES! But the idea was impart wisdom and get my wife to perform a skill outside her comfort zone while saving my marriage.

Sometimes the wise (and thereby surviving spouse) chooses to not teach at all.
 

virtue_summer

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I wouldn't agree with dangerous. But a lot of terms like this seem to engender defensive responses that derail whatever conversation was in progress.
But mansplaining itself is often used to try to derail a conversation or to end it by shutting out anyone's voice but the person doing the explaining. Yes, pointing out that people may be engaging in a not so nice behavior can lead to that person being defensive. Does that mean the behavior should never be pointed out?
an important point, however. while women have, and deserve, the same rights as men to hold opinions, theories and ideas... and express them with vigor... women also have the same capacity as men, as a percentage, to be absolute fucking morons. so there are plausible scenarios in which the lack of deference is a response to intellect rather than sex.
Can you tell me why this matters? The term isn't an accusation against men as a gender and it doesn't say women need to be deferred to on all things or can't be wrong, at least from what I can tell. I think it's just a recognition of a phenomenon that may be difficult to see when you're just looking at isolated incidents because, yeah, you can usually come up with other explanations for them, but over time patterns do often emerge connecting those incidents and I think that's where the term makes sense.
 

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yup... mansplaining is a real thing, although an insipid term that cheapens perception of the offense, and it's condescending and it's bullshit.

Curious, what term would you use? (Kinda looking forward to it. Give us a meme, Haskins.)

an important point, however. while women have, and deserve, the same rights as men to hold opinions, theories and ideas... and express them with vigor... women also have the same capacity as men, as a percentage, to be absolute fucking morons. so there are plausible scenarios in which the lack of deference is a response to intellect rather than sex.

in this regard, equality affords one sex no more deference than the other.

I don't think anyone is disputing that. It's a question of two things: (1) subject knowledge and (2) sexism-and-female-related topics.

For example (1), I know very little about police work. Rugcat informing me of a mistake I made regarding the subject is not mansplaining, nor is his elaboration of a point I made or a hypothetical I posited.

I do, however, know a fair bit about accounting, economics, and fraud. Were Rugcat to interject my clearly lucid posts about the finer points of banking policy to inject an "Actually..." with a bunch of garbage that is clearly and obviously stupid to anyone who has taken freshman business classes, that would be mansplaining.

(Don't mean to pick on Rugcat, who would never do such a thing. Just illustrating an example.)

As for (2), take an equally intelligent man and woman - or an equally stupid man and woman - on the subject of actual issues that affect women much more, such as pregnancy and women's health, or sexism in the workplace, or rape, and have the dude come down from on high to 'splain the subject to a woman. That is egregious and offensive mansplaining. They are not equals in this topic - women, by default, have more knowledge on these subjects due to life experience. Even an intelligent man dealing with a less intelligent woman may only achieve equality on these subjects with intensive study.
 

William Haskins

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Curious, what term would you use? (Kinda looking forward to it. Give us a meme, Haskins.)

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Were Rugcat to interject my clearly lucid posts about the finer points of banking policy to inject an "Actually..." with a bunch of garbage that is clearly and obviously stupid to anyone who has taken freshman business classes, that would be mansplaining.

(Don't mean to pick on Rugcat, who would never do such a thing. Just illustrating an example.)

and if he responded that very way to a man?
 

Gale Haut

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Curious, what term would you use? (Kinda looking forward to it. Give us a meme, Haskins.)

I can't speak for Haskins, but it seems like a better choice to tell someone who is being patronizing to stop being patronizing, someone who is being naive to stop being naive, someone who is being pompous to stop being pompous, etc. Why call them out on a sex based stereotype?
 

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I have always taken mansplaining to be the kind of explaining where men try to appear superior in a subject they have no clue about, especially with a dose of sexism while trying to explain to women why they don't understand something because they're *women*. The point is that mansplaining *is* sexist and/or condescending.

Regular arguments aren't mansplaining. If someone uses the word mansplaining when there is no evidence of it, just because a man disagrees with them, then they're obviously wrong.

ETA: men are being called out specifically for 'man'splaining because the particular explaining often has an air of sexism tinged with male ignorance on women's issues.
 
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SWest

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I have major concerns with Solsnit's essay and with the concept as everyone is describing it here. I can't see a way around viewing this word as a tool to marginalize a group of people.

Is it ever really appropriate to Other a group based on sex and gender stereotypes with a pejorative term?

There is a difference between identifying/describing a phenomenon and advocating disparaging use of terminology and/or sterotyping.

Just because the word in question was generated in part by some ironic commentary does not mean that the very real phenomenon is not oppressive.

And I know plenty of men who do not put a heavy hand on my sword arm, lean over me, and change their tone to that used with five-year-olds. I reserve my personal exasperation exclusively for those individuals who do.

Will women who genuinely value men take care how they use this term? Certainly.
 

William Haskins

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There is a difference between identifying/describing a phenomenon and advocating disparaging use of terminology and/or sterotyping.

Just because the word in question was generated in part by some ironic commentary does not mean that the very real phenomenon is not oppressive.

And I know plenty of men who do not put a heavy hand on my sword arm, lean over me, and change their tone to that used with five-year-olds. I reserve my personal exasperation exclusively for those individuals who do.

Will women who genuinely value men take care how they use this term? Certainly.

derail be damned. i just want to say this is one goddamn sharp piece of writing.
 

muravyets

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I have major concerns with Solsnit's essay and with the concept as everyone is describing it here. I can't see a way around viewing this word as a tool to marginalize a group of people.

Is it ever really appropriate to Other a group based on sex and gender stereotypes with a pejorative term?
No, it never is. But that's not what the term "mansplaining" does. It may be what some people do with it, but the term itself is applicable to a behavior, not a sex. It describes action, not a person.

Curious, what term would you use? (Kinda looking forward to it. Give us a meme, Haskins.)



I don't think anyone is disputing that. It's a question of two things: (1) subject knowledge and (2) sexism-and-female-related topics.

For example (1), I know very little about police work. Rugcat informing me of a mistake I made regarding the subject is not mansplaining, nor is his elaboration of a point I made or a hypothetical I posited.

I do, however, know a fair bit about accounting, economics, and fraud. Were Rugcat to interject my clearly lucid posts about the finer points of banking policy to inject an "Actually..." with a bunch of garbage that is clearly and obviously stupid to anyone who has taken freshman business classes, that would be mansplaining.

(Don't mean to pick on Rugcat, who would never do such a thing. Just illustrating an example.)

As for (2), take an equally intelligent man and woman - or an equally stupid man and woman - on the subject of actual issues that affect women much more, such as pregnancy and women's health, or sexism in the workplace, or rape, and have the dude come down from on high to 'splain the subject to a woman. That is egregious and offensive mansplaining. They are not equals in this topic - women, by default, have more knowledge on these subjects due to life experience. Even an intelligent man dealing with a less intelligent woman may only achieve equality on these subjects with intensive study.
Personally, I see (2) as more mansplainy than (1).

In the (1) scenario, what I see really happening is someone who is ignorant but thinks they're in the know copping a know-it-all attitude about something they really know nothing about. While that's always a jerk-move, it's not necessarily always hostile or motivated by prejudice. It doesn't need the element of sexism.

(2) on the other hand does seem to carry more of the element of sexist prejudice, so to me that seems more an example of mansplaining.

Here's an anecdote to add to the pile of examples. It was told to me by my sainted mother: Mother Mura is recently retired from a decades-long career at the highest levels of secretarial work. She has been executive assistant to the CEOs, general counsels, and other top brass of international corporations, large advertising agencies, PACs of major insurance holding companies, to the president and head of research at a globally leading cancer treatment hospital and laboratory, to the publisher of a major group of news periodicals, etc. She is an expert in that line of work. You may meet people as good at running an office as she, but you'll never meet anyone better.

Yet despite a resume that would make most HR directors gasp and squee, she once found herself being are-you-for-real?-splained by a woman executive who, on day one of Mother Mura's new job, decided to "train" her new "girl." She did this by leaning over my mom to show her hands-on how to do things at the desk -- thus invading mom's personal space in a dominating manner -- being extremely, insultingly, almost aggressively and challengingly condescending. At one point, my mom told me this woman actually manually demonstrated for her how to use a paperclip to hold two sheets of paper together. At that point, my mom asked the woman to take the conversation into her private office, where my mom told her that her behavior was unacceptable and how it was unacceptable. My mom did not mention that she would not be staying in that job but she did quit for a position elsewhere a couple of weeks later, after only a couple of weeks on that job.

Clearly, this sort of thing is shitty behavior, but it's not necessarily sexist. There was nothing sexist about this female boss being such an absolute asshole. It only becomes sexist and mansplaining when the motivation and purpose behind it is clearly sexist, imo.
 

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Dangerous waters. Take a scenario in which men do know a thing or two on a personal level even though they are perceived as not knowing anything because of their gender. Maybe they are discouraged from speaking in referential terms because of gender culture. An example: rape.

You're not quite understanding, or maybe I'm not being clear enough. Rape is a subject men can know quite well if they have been raped or are in a group that is more likely to be assaulted. If a man with experience were to talk about rape, and someone accused them of mansplaining, they would be wrong.

What I'm trying to communicate, is that mansplaining is the appropriate word to use when men are being condescending and sexist while explaining things which they *don't* have more knowledge of, but they think they do just because they're men or have a sense of superiority.

Obviously, there are issues men face which are often overlooked by society because men 'aren't supposed to know anything about', but they do. Like being victims of rape, being expected to act masculine, expectations to be providers, body image issues... Those are things men can talk about.

Mansplaining: talking about women's bodies like they know more than women, talking about auto repair to a woman like she's incompetent, even if that woman owns a garage (but the man feels that, being a man, he obviously knows more)... etc.
 

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Men who have been raped would never mansplain about rape.

Rape and sexual assault/battery victims relate to one another. They don't come down from on high and ovary/dick measure their trauma. They certainly don't declare that one specific person has less knowledge of or lesser suffering of the act compared to someone else.

For fuck's sake, y'all. We are in a point in our culture where it's almost impossible to pursue justice towards any rapist who isn't a stranger that violently attacked us with a gun. In our greater society, this shit is still in the shadows.

Mansplaining about rape exists, as I am all too aware, but it does not come from these quarters, insofar as I have ever known of.
 
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Williebee

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Re: SWest, what William said.


Originally Posted by Gale Haut
I have major concerns with Solsnit's essay and with the concept as everyone is describing it here. I can't see a way around viewing this word as a tool to marginalize a group of people.

Is it ever really appropriate to Other a group based on sex and gender stereotypes with a pejorative term?

I think any term that describes or points out a behavior might be used as a weapon or a lever, a positive or negative.

Also, I think that with most insults, once widely recognized, we may run the risk of assuming them, whether or not they were intended or actually occurring.
 
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muravyets

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In that more serious context, mansplaining is especially hurtful. It serves to tell the person on the receiving end that their perspective doesn't matter, that they have nothing of value to contribute -- not their expertise, not their experience. It's something survivors of sexual assault are all too familiar with in the context of the crimes. Do we need to put up with it in other contexts, too? I don't think so.

Yes, pomposity and bad behavior should be called out in a general way. But bigotry is a whole additional can of crap, and it deserves to be called out in its own right. Deserves it more than run-of-the-mill general assholery, imo. And I consider sexism a form of bigotry.
 

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Men who have been raped would never mansplain about rape.

Rape and sexual assault/battery victims relate to one another. They don't come down from on high and ovary/dick measure their trauma. They certainly don't declare that one specific person has less knowledge of or lesser suffering of the act compared to someone else.

For fuck's sake, y'all. We are in a point in our culture where it's almost impossible to pursue justice towards any rapist who isn't a stranger that violently attacked us with a gun. In our greater society, this shit is still in the shadows.

Mansplaining about rape exists, as I am all too aware, but it does not come from these quarters, insofar as I have ever known of.

Precisely. Well put. No one who ever really knew about such a difficult subject would act superior about it.

Mansplaining is pretty simple, really. It's when a man thinks he knows more about a subject than someone else, simply by virtue of being a man, or a superior man. But actually, said man is ignorant and sexist.
 

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There are definitely cases where a man comes off as mansplaining when he actually isn't. There are also cases of white people coming off as racist when they actually aren't, but just said something really boneheaded with a covert meaning that they couldn't understand. But that's no reason to get rid of the term.

No. Not at all. In fact it's one of two terms I've recently learned about (bear with me, I'm an old fart). One is "mansplaining" the other is "privilege." Nobody had to explain "mansplaining" to me. It was perfectly clear. I've observed it all my life. I have moderate concerns about the term--not too different from Gale's--but I understand it and agree that it's useful in that it helps to better define a particular sort of egregious behavior. The term "privilege" is an altogether different animal. I understand what's meant by it (thanks, Richard) and understand and don't disagree with what it's describing. But I can't shake the feeling that the term itself is a pejorative. But I'ma stop before I further derail an interesting thread.
 

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I do, however, know a fair bit about accounting, economics, and fraud. Were Rugcat to interject my clearly lucid posts about the finer points of banking policy to inject an "Actually..." with a bunch of garbage that is clearly and obviously stupid to anyone who has taken freshman business classes, that would be mansplaining.

The only thing he'd be for certain is someone who thinks they know what they're talking about but actually doesn't. Nothing about this hypothetical situation states for certain that his objection to your opinion would be based on a "you don't know what you're talking about because you're a woman and I know what I'm talking about because I'm a man" mindset.

Your second hypothetical situation, in which a man and a woman have "equal intelligence" but are still not equals on certain subjects because of their gender, doesn't really make sense unless you're referring to equal IQs or other intelligence scales. Unless they've been taught exactly the same things, it doesn't guarantee that the woman would be more knowledgeable on those subjects than the man.
 
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Xelebes

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Rape and sexual assault/battery victims relate to one another. They don't come down from on high and ovary/dick measure their trauma. They certainly don't declare that one specific person has less knowledge of or lesser suffering of the act compared to someone else.

Incorrect. They do, but not as a default and often more subtle. It is a conflict that I have sometimes seen in group therapy. Some people, despite their trauma, can still be insensitive to other's trauma.
 

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Ok, some of you ladies are having trouble explaining what mansplaining is, so let me explain what it really means.

Just kidding, but if I had gone on without irony, that would be an example of mansplaining.
 

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Incorrect. They do, but not as a default and often more subtle. It is a conflict that I have sometimes seen in group therapy. Some people, despite their trauma, can still be insensitive to other's trauma.

Never observed a woman doing that. Nor have I observed this behavior from the handful of men I've spoken to who have been victims of sexual assault. I have, however, observed it from male (and female) authority figures who deigned to gleefully delve into mansplainery-land.

It is, at the very least, an uncommon behavior, and obnoxious and douchetastic.
 

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I can't speak for Haskins, but it seems like a better choice to tell someone who is being patronizing to stop being patronizing, someone who is being naive to stop being naive, someone who is being pompous to stop being pompous, etc. Why call them out on a sex based stereotype?

Hmm, one could certainly be an asshat without being a sexist one, I think. But the do seem to travel together often.

Maybe it is about looking for the sexist "tells"?

Does that make any sense?
 

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Paradox of old language versus new language.

It was suggested above that patronize was a less pejorative term than mansplain. But to patronize means to act as a father toward. It ascribes not only gender but also age bias to the person doing it.

Of course, Haskins' term has a lot to recommend it.
 

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I can't speak for Haskins, but it seems like a better choice to tell someone who is being patronizing to stop being patronizing, someone who is being naive to stop being naive, someone who is being pompous to stop being pompous, etc. Why call them out on a sex based stereotype?

I always had the impression that the term was more of a play on this sort of thing. For those who don't want to click through, it's a 2008 article about the use of 'man' as a pre-fix and whether or not terms like 'man naps' and 'bromance' are in response to male insecurity and a cultural shift in gender norms.

I also think that in a practical sense, there is a huge difference between telling someone not to be patronizing and informing them that their actions at the very least micro-aggression and may be perpetuating a really shitty system of oppression. It's a shorthand way to put what's going on in a social context and reminds the male voice in the conversation to check his privilege

ETA: @Haggis, I actually agree about the term privilege sort of. On one hand I think it makes people instantly defensive and almost always leads to derails. But I also think being able to understand seemingly trivial things as privileges kind of drives the point home?


aaaand this

Paradox of old language versus new language.

It was suggested above that patronize was a less pejorative term than mansplain. But to patronize means to act as a father toward. It ascribes not only gender but also age bias to the person doing it.

Of course, Haskins' term has a lot to recommend it.

is a fantastic point. But most of RG's points are fantastic.
 
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