The Duotrope Thread

Thanks for posting their response, Project Deadlight! I was wondering how they figured the stats would stay the same. I hope they're right about that.

bdwilson said:

Thanks for posting their response, Project Deadlight! I was wondering how they figured the stats would stay the same. I hope they're right about that.

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If they'd looked at how many users donated $50 already, they might be right... but it looks like they've simply assumed anyone active will donate that much, even if they haven't in the past.

It's a pity, as it was the best site for seeing if a market had become a black hole. But that's all I used it for, which isn't worth $50.

Polenth said:

If they'd looked at how many users donated $50 already, they might be right... but it looks like they've simply assumed anyone active will donate that much, even if they haven't in the past.

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Yeah, that seems like a risky assumption to make. I'm also worried they looked at the overlap between active users and those who have donated in the past, and assumed the people who have donated are the people who will stay.

I think the service is wonderful, but I had the donation subscription because I wanted to help keep it available for free. I can't decide if a paid version of the site is worth enough on its own to make up for losing the primary reason I've paid for it in the past.

I have a month to figure it out, I guess

Nice to see a magazine editor taking the side of many of us writers on the Duotrope issue.
Here's a blog post from Richard Flores, editor of Plasma Frequency:
http://floresfactor.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/shame-on-you-duotrope/

Interesting--I didn't realize they were being a bunch of sassypants on FB. They've sent inappropriately snarky responses in the past, too, when people criticized their pay rate search option changes.

I wish I knew how to program. I'd be opening a Duotrope clone right now for half the price, with none of the @sshattery.

Eliza C said:

Nice to see a magazine editor taking the side of many of us writers on the Duotrope issue.
Here's a blog post from Richard Flores, editor of Plasma Frequency:
http://floresfactor.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/shame-on-you-duotrope/

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Just read the post by Richard Flores - thanks for posting it, by the way.

It was useful to hear his take as an editor about this Duotrope development. As you said, it's lovely to see an editor take the side of us writers.

I honestly don't know what to do - I've been following the discussion on this thread and as a result, I've been left wondering about whether to subscribe or not. I'm still no wiser and still feeling indecisive (but I am leaning towards not subscribing). The only reason I liked using Duotrope was its user-friendly format - I've been using its database to hunt down markets in my genre, calls for submissions, etc. I don't use it for its spreadsheet as I'm a luddite and prefer the old-fashioned method (pen, post-its and diary).

I'll miss the Duotrope database. Bummer.
Are there any other alternatives out there to Duotrope?

It's only $50, and anyone who thinks that is a lot of money has bigger problems than if they should stay with doutrope. Yes, I wish it would stay free, but think of all the time you got to use the site for free. I feel like this argument is similar to people saying they don't read publications because they can't afford it. Ridiculous, in my mind.

gettingby said:

It's only $50, and anyone who thinks that is a lot of money has bigger problems than if they should stay with doutrope. Yes, I wish it would stay free, but think of all the time you got to use the site for free. I feel like this argument is similar to people saying they don't read publications because they can't afford it. Ridiculous, in my mind.

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Well, that's an odd change of heart.

gettingby said:

Such a shame. Doutrope is going to destroy what it built up with THE HELP OF ALL ITS USERS!

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Again, for me it's less about the money and more about the fact that their statistical data is most likely going to change drastically. Because whether or not you think fifty bucks is or isn't a lot of money, it's clear that a very large portion of their user base is not comfortable paying that much for the service.

But I do think it's a little silly of you to discount people saying they can't afford it. I don't think that's a ridiculous statement. Writers come from all walks of life. Perhaps some writers who aren't as well off as you or I and must choose where they drop their disposable income very carefully would rather spend that fifty bucks on, say, a subscription to a publication they'd like to submit to. I know I would, were I in their place.

I did not post that second quote you claim is from me. I never write in all caps. What gives?

There is another thread discussing this subject. I wonder if one of the moderators could join it.

gettingby said:

I did not post that second quote you claim is from me. I never write in all caps. What gives?

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I'm not "claiming" anything, I just hit the quote button. I remembered seeing that post from you, that's why I found this other one odd. It's right here on this thread. If you click the little arrow next to your username in the quote in my last post, it will take you to the actual post where you (or someone using your username, anyway) said it.

Does someone else in your home post here on AW? Perhaps you were still signed in and they posted under your name?

gettingby said:

It's only $50, and anyone who thinks that is a lot of money has bigger problems than if they should stay with doutrope.

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Any writer who doesn't look at things according to a cost-benefit ratio rather than just cost versus an I-have-money-to-burn attitude also probably has a problem... or is about to.

veinglory said:

Any writer who doesn't look at things according to a cost-benefit ratio rather than just cost versus an I-have-money-to-burn attitude also probably has a problem... or is about to.

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Exactly.

"It's only fifty dollars" if you're getting something worth $50 or more, AND you happen to have fifty dollars that shouldn't be going to your bills or retirement fund instead. I wouldn't pay $50 for a pizza, for example, or pay $50 for anything if my bills are overdue.

Personally, I don't think Duotrope's non-copyrightable number-crunching is worth that much cash; I'm gonna try to live without it, thanks. Your mileage may vary.

I'm now considering $5 a month to start with, so I can see what happens with their stats. Then, if it becomes completely useless, I can drop out. Even now, I wonder if people are still reporting responses. Also, it might fail to raise enough money, and I don't want to pay $50 then have them disappear with no refund.

I'm reluctant to pay because I agree that $50 is overpriced, and I can't justify it from sales. Having thought about it for a while, I think $20 would be OK. But one of the keys is encouraging people to report their responses, so even $20 is an entry barrier.

The main value for me is in rapid market searches.

gettingby said:

It's only $50, and anyone who thinks that is a lot of money has bigger problems than if they should stay with doutrope. Yes, I wish it would stay free, but think of all the time you got to use the site for free. I feel like this argument is similar to people saying they don't read publications because they can't afford it. Ridiculous, in my mind.

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I don't think anyone is advocating that they should continue to provide their service for free. The argument is that the amount of money they ask for is out of balance with what they're offering. I say this as someone who regularly donates to sites I use (including AW and DT) and subscribe to many of the magazines I submit to.

If you approach your writing purely as a hobby you can easily justify spending $50 on something like this. However, if you approach it as a business, justifying it becomes so much harder.

How many Duotrope users make $500 in short fiction sales annually? Those folks could reasonably justify giving up 10% of their income - ONLY if they wouldn;t have made those sales/learned of those markets without Duotrope. I suspect the vast majority of their users do not make even close to $500/year in short fiction sales.

Personally I donated $20 to Duotrope last year and was going to donate $20 more this year, which is what I feel the service they provide is worth to me, at most.

gettingby said:

It's only $50, and anyone who thinks that is a lot of money has bigger problems than if they should stay with doutrope. Yes, I wish it would stay free, but think of all the time you got to use the site for free. I feel like this argument is similar to people saying they don't read publications because they can't afford it. Ridiculous, in my mind.

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My earnings are so low I don't pay taxes. I currently rely on family for basics like food and shelter. So yes, I have bigger issues in my life. This doesn't mean it's ridiculous for me to be a writer or to have an opinion about the cost of things. It means I have to be more aware of the costs, because I have to budget very carefully.

I pay for my SFWA membership each year and set aside money for fiction, so I can stay on top of what's happening in the industry. I saved enough to get two convention memberships (one next year and one the year after) as they're big ones that'll be close by for those years. These have much bigger returns than a site where I check the recent response page sometimes (this is all I use Duotrope for, as I have a book to record subs and get market recommendations elsewhere).

If you have a lot of money and can pay for anything without worrying, that's great. It really is. But don't take that for granted.

If it's not worth 17 cents a day to you (14 cents for the annual), don't subscribe. I'm just surprised there's so much anger/angst about it here - I haven't seen that on any other forums; just the opposite actually.

shadowwalker said:

If it's not worth 17 cents a day to you (14 cents for the annual), don't subscribe. I'm just surprised there's so much anger/angst about it here - I haven't seen that on any other forums; just the opposite actually.

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I think the angst is because Duotrope itself is a fun little site. I, for one, have donated annually since I started using it, have enjoyed obsessing over the stats, and have recommended it to other writers.

I'm normally a very quiet person. I've been more vocal over the Duotrope cost than I am over most writerly news because I like Duotrope and would prefer to keep using it. I would be willing to pay $20 or $25, but $50 is, for me, too much for what I'm getting. By expressing my opinion, I'm really hoping Duotrope will get the message from as many channels as possible, from me and from others, and maybe, just possibly, reconsider their rates (or, alternatively, that someone else will launch a similar site, for a more reasonable price).

You could characterize that as angst, or you could characterize it as consumer input (which, in my opinion, is preferable to apathy or resignation).

shadowwalker said:

If it's not worth 17 cents a day to you (14 cents for the annual), don't subscribe. I'm just surprised there's so much anger/angst about it here - I haven't seen that on any other forums; just the opposite actually.

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Whether Duotrope stays or goes doesn't bother me much, but I am bothered by the attitude that writers who have to budget and decide against paying are being silly.

Polenth said:

I am bothered by the attitude that writers who have to budget and decide against paying are being silly.

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Me too. Writers who budget are sensible. Duotrope will be a convenient luxury extra for some.

I've had times in my life where I couldn't have afforded $50. Not even $5. More like I needed to borrow at least $50 in order to eat that week. This, when working full time, in a professional but junior role, and supporting myself.

In my opinion, it is naive to belittle others for not being able to justify $50. Ideally, I'd like a model where access is available for all. The article Eliza C. linked to made some very good points re Duotrope not asking for user suggestions.

shadowwalker said:

If it's not worth 17 cents a day to you (14 cents for the annual), don't subscribe. I'm just surprised there's so much anger/angst about it here - I haven't seen that on any other forums; just the opposite actually.

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I can only speak for myself, but as others have mentioned, I think there's a hope that if enough people are vocal in their disappointment, Duotrope might reconsider their options on this. Plus, I've been vocal in my support for them in the past, why not be vocal in my disappointment?

Value is subjective (as this whole debate has made clear, I hope), but it's also annoying to have to adjust your habits because of something outside of your control, even if it's something auxiliary. I mean, I don't need Duotrope to continue writing and selling fiction, just as I don't need to love the hell out of some Reese's peanut butter cups. When I reached an age where I had to start buying my own junk food, I certainly didn't start complaining about the price of Reese's Pieces. What's a bag of them cost? A buck or two? But if I'd been devouring them for years and then tomorrow they announced they were going to start filling them with poop instead of peanut butter, I would probably complain pretty loudly about it. Because of the difference in product and the forced change in my eating habits, not because of the price.

Now poop and peanut butter might be a little further away from each other on the spectrum than a Duotrope with lots of stats and a Duotrope with much fewer stats, but I hope you see what I mean. Either way, I'd make a post on a message board about it.

J. W. - your analogy made me think of another one, that of drug dealers, where at first it's free and then when you're hooked the price goes up. I feel like they waited until many writer's were hooked and then jammed us with the fee. Some writer's started submitting only in the age of Duotrope, so it probably feels like 'the way' to them.

I was debating at first whether I could budget it or not. I've donated in the past. But I do see 50 in a lump sum, as too high and don't like automatic payments. I also really really don't like the way they sprung it on their users, it seems quite disrespectful and as someone else said somewhere, shows no knowledge of their user base. Plus, without showing some financial viability on their end, i'm now afraid it will suddenly just go up in price, or they'll stop it all together because of whatever reason we don't get a solid backstory too.