Ideas on "ancestor channeling"?

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MormonMobster

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So I'm writing a story involving people channeling the spirits of particularly skilled ancestors, gaining their skills, habits, a few memories, and personality quirks, as well as being able to perform outright supernatural feats that not even the ancestor themselves could have performed on their own (example, a person channeling his great warrior ancestor can leap unnaturally high, or perform unrealistic feats with a sword, such as blocking small-arms gunfire).

However, there are two problems with this:

1. I'd research it all myself (and regardless of your help or not, I will do research), but I don't know how to word a search for something like this.

2. I'd like some extra brains to help me figure out possible limitations, weaknesses, strengths, battle tactics, and supernatural powers of this "ancestor channeling"; I can figure out most of it myself, but I don't want to fall into any "cliches" of supernatural powers.

Without spoiling anything, I will say that my MC will be a descendant of Joan of Arc (and can channel Joan), so if that could be factored into this, that would help me immensely.
 

Ardent Kat

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If you want to make reincarnation a reality in this story, you could always have the person be a reincarnation of Jean d'Arc, so s/he kind of is that person without having to channel her.

Whether using ancestor channeling or reincarnation, it would be wise to remember that this isn't magic or mythology to some readers, but an important facet of their religion. Write what you will, but realize you might get a few angry readers if you make channeling ancestors into something gimicky rather than spiritual.

I'd start with a search on "ancestor worship" and check out real world religions that believe in it. It could be a good way to handle the subject with more sensitivity and give you some insight on what real cultures believe about ancestors and the wisdom/power they impart.
 

waylander

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Is the POV character in command of their own body while 'ancestor channeling' or are they a spectator or do they remember nothing?
 

Mr Flibble

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I'd say that because there's no empirical evidence of real-world ancestor channeling, you have a lot of wiggle room on this topic. Just make it fit your story/characters.


There's no real world empirical evidence of God either, but you can upset a lot of people if you aren't careful.

Some people really do believe it (though I don't think they do it in quite the sense given here, co-opting skills etc). Anyway, to the OP, maybe start with people who do this in this world, how they do it, what it means spiritually etc and go from there.
 

areteus

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Other than to look into specifics of some of the ancestor worshipping religions, I can't think of anything you could research here. Its more a case of your own world building metaphysics. I would sit down with a piece of paper and scribble down ideas and try to formulate a coherent set of rules for your 'power' by asking some questions:

- How many ancestors can he channal at once? [I assume only one but this does leave wiggle room for a desperate attempt to channel more than one if he needs more than one skill set in extremis]
- How long can he maintain it for?
- Are the ancestors sentient - i.e. can they refuse to help him if he does not pay the proper respect? Can they step in and help him without him asking? can he have conversations with them>
- How many times a day can he do this without being exhausted?
- Is there anything that can stop him from doing it (some form of kryptonite that blocks his connection to the ancestors and makes him powerless?)

A series of books I would suggest you look for are Brian Lumley's Necroscope series which has a similar concept. In that the MC is a psychic medium but one so powerful that he can adopt the skills of those he communicates with (and later he gets really powerful abilities like teleportation...).
 

lbender

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Robert Jordan includes one feature of this in his Wheel of Time series. The main character channels an ancient ancestor, using his memories. One major problem he has is that the ancestor was mad and tries, on several occasions, to take over the MC's body.

Other than that, I agree with some of the others in that doing something like this requires effort. It might, depending on how ancient an ancestor and how deep the sharing goes (i.e. - powers, memories, etc.), be so difficult as to risk the character's life, or just risk losing himself in that ancestor.
 

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One way to get around not offending those that believe in 'channeling' is to not use that term and make it done in a different way. Instead of 'channeling' you might want to use a method that does not resemble the way one channels.

Make up a new way of getting into contact with said 'past person'. Lots of stories have folks that talk to spirits without offending anyone. stretch your mind and come up with something new.

Off the top of my head.....

Use a mirror. You see the 'departed in a mirror and invite them 'in' after some dialog about what you want and they tell you what they can/will do for you.

A special object is held in your hand and becomes the portal for the departed and you.

Just a couple off the top of my head.

If you use the spirit instead of the channeling idea you should not have any problems. IMHO
 

DeleyanLee

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What you're talking about is the backbone of the Assassin's Creed video game franchise (done through advanced technology and a "bleeding effect" to the modern descendants), so what you're talking about has already been introduced to and accepted by the SF/F audience.

So that's not a problem.

If I was using this story device, I'd be focusing on what was the mondo coolest/butt-kicking fun method allowed by your worldbuilding to do this. AC has used a technological method (specifically the "Machine-enhanced exploration of your ancestor's memories and bleeding effect" method), but that's just one of many many ways science fiction or fantasy (whichever you're writing) can offer to do what you want.

There is no reality for it, no more than there is for time travel. Create something totally awesome and write it well and the readers will buy it.

My experience is that if you just sell it very well, those people who don't know will think you do and those people who do know will be inspired to figure out how to go from what they know to what you created. (I've seen it happen many times with other authors, FWIW.)

Good luck and have fun!
 

GeorgeK

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Ancestor / hero worship and channeling of said might also bring in the ancestor's foibles. The MC might find out the hard way that Great Grandpappy was a Jack the Ripper in his spare time, something that the historians sort of missed. Many religions would call this, "possession."
 

MormonMobster

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If you want to make reincarnation a reality in this story, you could always have the person be a reincarnation of Jean d'Arc, so s/he kind of is that person without having to channel her.

Whether using ancestor channeling or reincarnation, it would be wise to remember that this isn't magic or mythology to some readers, but an important facet of their religion. Write what you will, but realize you might get a few angry readers if you make channeling ancestors into something gimicky rather than spiritual.

I'd start with a search on "ancestor worship" and check out real world religions that believe in it. It could be a good way to handle the subject with more sensitivity and give you some insight on what real cultures believe about ancestors and the wisdom/power they impart.

Yeah, I don't want to be hamhanded, which is why I'm asking before going out and researching the topic without a clue in the world about it.

I don't want to go the reincarnation route, I feel that the MC should be a character who is a lot like Joan of Arc, but also is a character in her own right.

I won't make it gimmicky; in fact, I'll have an opening spiel from the Supernatural Exposition/Mentor character about different cultures seeing this power in different ways.

I'll be sure to check out info on ancestor worship, though. I plan to have at least one (but not all) characters do that.

Is the POV character in command of their own body while 'ancestor channeling' or are they a spectator or do they remember nothing?

Sort of a mix of all of those; they are mostly in command of their own body, though being a Vessel (my book's term for the channelers) causes you to be influenced by your ancestor in various ways. For example, the MC would always have a vague animosity towards the English, because of her ancestor being Joan of Arc. But while channeling Joan, the MC is a lot more aggressive and suspicious of an Englishman. Memory-wise, I'm thinking that the Vessel distantly (though not always clearly) remembers the actions undertook while channeling.

Other than to look into specifics of some of the ancestor worshipping religions, I can't think of anything you could research here. Its more a case of your own world building metaphysics. I would sit down with a piece of paper and scribble down ideas and try to formulate a coherent set of rules for your 'power' by asking some questions:

- How many ancestors can he channel at once? [I assume only one but this does leave wiggle room for a desperate attempt to channel more than one if he needs more than one skill set in extremis]
- How long can he maintain it for?
- Are the ancestors sentient - i.e. can they refuse to help him if he does not pay the proper respect? Can they step in and help him without him asking? can he have conversations with them>
- How many times a day can he do this without being exhausted?
- Is there anything that can stop him from doing it (some form of kryptonite that blocks his connection to the ancestors and makes him powerless?)

A series of books I would suggest you look for are Brian Lumley's Necroscope series which has a similar concept. In that the MC is a psychic medium but one so powerful that he can adopt the skills of those he communicates with (and later he gets really powerful abilities like teleportation...).

Good questions; I won't answer them here, but I'll definitely answer them in the notes for my book. Thanks!

Also, the Necroscope series does sound interesting; I'll have to look into it.

Robert Jordan includes one feature of this in his Wheel of Time series. The main character channels an ancient ancestor, using his memories. One major problem he has is that the ancestor was mad and tries, on several occasions, to take over the MC's body.

Other than that, I agree with some of the others in that doing something like this requires effort. It might, depending on how ancient an ancestor and how deep the sharing goes (i.e. - powers, memories, etc.), be so difficult as to risk the character's life, or just risk losing himself in that ancestor.

Good points; I think the losing onesself aspect would be the most intriguing cost to this. The "more ancient= more powerful but harder to control" makes sense, I'll probably incorporate that into this.

One way to get around not offending those that believe in 'channeling' is to not use that term and make it done in a different way. Instead of 'channeling' you might want to use a method that does not resemble the way one channels.

Make up a new way of getting into contact with said 'past person'. Lots of stories have folks that talk to spirits without offending anyone. stretch your mind and come up with something new.

Use a mirror. You see the 'departed in a mirror and invite them 'in' after some dialog about what you want and they tell you what they can/will do for you.

A special object is held in your hand and becomes the portal for the departed and you.

If you use the spirit instead of the channeling idea you should not have any problems. IMHO

I'm not sure of a good word that isn't "channel". I do have a more non-offensive word for those who channel; is "Vessel" offensive to anyone?

I'm thinking that needing an item or substance that symbolizes/is reminiscent of the ancestor would work best. So a French Flag could let the MC channel Joan of Arc, while another character could channel Leonardo Da Vinci through a replica of the Mona Lisa or whatever, and a third character could change Winston Churchill through a simple cigar.

The thing I'm most unsure on is the means of communication between Vessel and ancestor. I'm leaning towards no verbal communication, just memories, feelings, and inclinations (so, Joan of Arc could transmit a feeling of guidance to the MC), but I haven't decided on that for a rule yet.

What you're talking about is the backbone of the Assassin's Creed video game franchise (done through advanced technology and a "bleeding effect" to the modern descendants), so what you're talking about has already been introduced to and accepted by the SF/F audience.

So that's not a problem.

If I was using this story device, I'd be focusing on what was the mondo coolest/butt-kicking fun method allowed by your worldbuilding to do this. AC has used a technological method (specifically the "Machine-enhanced exploration of your ancestor's memories and bleeding effect" method), but that's just one of many many ways science fiction or fantasy (whichever you're writing) can offer to do what you want.

My experience is that if you just sell it very well, those people who don't know will think you do and those people who do know will be inspired to figure out how to go from what they know to what you created. (I've seen it happen many times with other authors, FWIW.)

Good luck and have fun!

Thanks for the encouragement!

Truth be told though, I didn't think of Assassin's Creed once when brainstorming this idea. My idea is not technologically based, it's more of an inherited and supernatural gift.

Ancestor / hero worship and channeling of said might also bring in the ancestor's foibles. The MC might find out the hard way that Great Grandpappy was a Jack the Ripper in his spare time, something that the historians sort of missed. Many religions would call this, "possession."

True, and I could always throw in the concept of an ancestor who themselves could channel their ancestor. That could be an interesting foible in itself.

You might want to look into the concept of genetic memory and its related theory of racial memory as proposed by Carl Jung. Depending on your story, it may - or may not - offer an aspect of presumptive plausibility for channeling one's ancestors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_memory_(psychology)

I'll have to check that out; it would help me fill out the gaps in my idea.

What are you trying to research? Real ancestors your characters can channel?

As far as I'm concerned, it's fiction, it's your story, Make it up.

I'm mostly trying to research real-life methods in which people claim they have "channeled" their ancestor, so as to more realistically such an event actually happening. Real ancestors I can easily think up; it's the method for how they do it that I'm concerned about.
 

Canotila

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Have no idea if it's helpful, but I was discussing cultural stuff with a friend at one point and she mentioned a dance she called "the mole dance" which was used to summon ancestors for guidance/assistance. She's Kwakiutl and something else, I'm not sure if it was a dance from her heritage or another tribe's though. I can't find anything on google about it specifically.
 

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Another good question is: "What's in it for the ancestor?" Why should they deign to lend their power and expertise?

In real world ancestor worship there is usually give and take between ancestors and their progeny. The progeny performs the proper exacting rituals or spends lots of time in prayer or building honoring shrines to earn the ancestor's favor. Someone who neglects to honor or pray to their ancestor shouldn't expect said ancestor to be there at their beck and call. It's not so much a mercenary element of give-and-take, but maintaining a relationship.

I'd ask my friends to help me move and they're happy to help because we've spent a lot of happy times together, I've fed them dinner lots of times, I care about them and help them when they're down. If I asked a total stranger or a coworker I'd barely know to help me move, they'd rightly ask, "Why the hell should I help you?"

Maintaining the positive relationship through prayer, ritual, offerings, shrines, honor, and frequent conversation would be a good effort on the protagonist's part instead of greedily grabbing an ancestor's help while giving nothing back in return.
 

MoLoLu

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I agree with the above poster.

Really there's little difference between ancestors and gods in this sort of thing. Sure, they have different names but the effect is much the same: You trade power for power.

In the case of gods this is often worship in return for blessings or simmilar. Basically you pray and one day hope that prayer pays off when you ask for help (sounds like social security to me).

In the case of ancestors it might be simmilar: Keep his name alive and in return for this dedication you gain something.
 

areteus

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This exactly... one thing we often discuss in one game I crew for is the tendency for some players to see the gods as giant slot machines - you put stuff in, you get stuff out - when really they are nothing of the sort. In fact, more often in that game the system is that you put stuff in and they may not think to blow you up today and sometimes, if you draw attention to yourself, you may get favoured and then you really are in trouble... :)

Point being that otherwordly spirits, ancestors and ghosts included, can be fickle. They work on a different plane of reality and therefore have different needs. If you follow the 'Small Gods' idea of gods and spirits requiring worship to survive then the rituals and prayers to these ancestors become important to them - its what equates to food, if you stop worshipping them they fade into oblivion after a while. Therefore, ancestors who are not 'fed' regularly will be very angry (or disappear forever once you stop feeding them long enough...) and may not be very co-operative.
 

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Impersonation of the Dead

I used a similar element in a book of mine (Exaltations). One of the characters is an ancestress. She can only be active and thinking when someone is impersonating (channeling) her. Others bring her back in this form in order to deal with difficult problems. The impersonators, because they serve as her mind, learn from her, and she can take part in and influence the world.

The embodied ancestor in this situation has an interesting perspective because of a somewhat staccato existence. And the impersonator has a perspective that contains elements of current and previous life.
 

Diana_Rajchel

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ironmikezero has a good one with genetic memory. I would suggest, if you want to involve "real world" stuff, the following Google search terms:
*ancestral memory
*trance channeling
*ancestor worship
*Voudon/Voodoo (ancestors are a big part of the practice)
*possession
 

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Chinese, Korean and Japanese also have ancestor worship. Though it is currently tied to Buddhist practices it most likely is originated from the shamanistic roots of the areas. (Wuism, Muism, Shintoism)

As pointed out, legit Voudou practices have ancestor worship as well. (As supposed to the fakey movie version, which is really bokor practices.)

There are rules--for example, keeping the name of the ancestor alive. So in your Jean D'arc example, if her ancestors didn't remember her through the generations, she doesn't count. Koreans, at least also believe in odd offerings rather than even. (This seems to be common in the region. Humans tend to like odd numbers anyway...) You'd also have to know what the ancestor likes to keep their spirit alive and with you. For example, if your great grandmother was well-known for liking silk, then you better get silk on the anniversary of her death.

The limiting factor, particularly in today's society is what one would consider "family" which is generally limited by 3 generations up and 3 generations down.

You might also want to consider the strength of the spirit as it gets older. Also by how many remember that ancestor's name in the lineage.

The most common mistake that people make when doing anything about ancestor worship is to think that ancestors should be taboo bad and scary. But like Day of the Dead in Mexico, it is a happy event that your relative has come to visit you. There is less taboo bad around death. It's just seen as another state of being. Death is sad, but the day the spirit returns is often celebrated. This is different from Western mentality where dead is dead and there is a large taboo around being near death. Of course attitudes have changed with the introduction of Christianity in some areas, but you may want to go with the older belief system. Please spare the thought of channeling ghosts, and more think of it as a person popping in to visit. Or a phone call from a friend you haven't talked to in a while.

Should give you a good start.
 

RichardFlea

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Also consider where you go when you die, or, where do the ancestors come from when summoned. If it is a boring place, they may enjoy spending some time back on earth, but if it is a form of slavery that takes them from paradise, they may not be too keen to help.

Remember that in some religions it is celebrating the birth date of the ancestor that is critical in maintaining the bond, not the anniversary of their death.

Some other limitations may be that the ancestor is not omnipresent, in other words some other living relation may have summoned the ancestor that you are trying to get hold of.

Be aware too that you may not get the ancestor you ask for. You may get their father or mother who also smoked or liked silk. Now who they were is a whole different kettle of fish (or ancestors).

You may also like to research other areas of 'channeling' such as automatic writing. Someone in England purported that they could channel a dead monk living in the area and wrote in latin.

There are some very interesting hard to explain examples of channeling that some people use to support their beliefs in this concept.

And in all of this, have fun. :)
 

Lhipenwhe

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So I'm writing a story involving people channeling the spirits of particularly skilled ancestors, gaining their skills, habits, a few memories, and personality quirks, as well as being able to perform outright supernatural feats that not even the ancestor themselves could have performed on their own (example, a person channeling his great warrior ancestor can leap unnaturally high, or perform unrealistic feats with a sword, such as blocking small-arms gunfire).

I think it'd be useful to know what the nature of the spirits are in your setting. Can they only exist on the same... er, existence as humans when they're channeled? Or do they wander around and haunt specific places? Can they interact with the world in any meaningful way, or do they have the joy of being transparent and having to nag great-grandson to put flowers on their grave?

For a fictional example of spirit channeling, I'm reminded of the Shaman King manga (loved it as a kid). In it, people can bond with a spirit to gain the spirits skills and supernatural abilities; as they learn how to form a stronger bond, more powers are opened to them. Might be worth checking out, or at least the Wikipedia page.
 
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