Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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JohnLynch

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James D. Macdonald said:
You have to write on the days when it isn't fun too.
It seems for me that every day is a not-fun writing day. Any recommendations Uncle Jim (or anyone else) on how to battle this problem?

Since I've been able to read I've enjoyed writing. Sometimes I'd start a sequel on a book I'd just finished. Often by asking "So what next?" and thinking up a story. However I never actually finished one of those stories. Because eventually it'd stop being fun.

As I grew older I created original stories in my mind. And whenever I began putting my ideas to paper, I would also never finish. Because it would eventually stop being fun.

To this day I've only finished four "stories" (not including writing challenges that have a self-imposed limit), all of them were short stories, and two of them eventually stopped being fun, but I knew I was near the ending so I worked my way through them. Whenever I start writing, I'm extremely enthusiastic and enjoy it a lot, however if I spend too long on it, it always gets to the "not fun" stage (which it does in less then twenty pages everytime), so in the past I'd pass it up for another idea that I was extremely enthusiastic about (which I never finished).

At the moment I'm working my way through a story (which will most likely finish at a novellette length) and it's at the "not fun" stage, but I'm forcing myself to work through it (it's the short story I mentioned a page back). Because I know if I give up and work on another "novel" it too will get to the "not fun" stage, so I might as well stick with the one I've already started ;)

But how do I begin enjoying the process of writing the story again? Writing something when it's "not fun", isn't... very fun ;)
 
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reph

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Steve 211 said:
It's okay, Galoot, I got you covered.
Thanks, Steve, that was nice of you.

Of course, Galoot, now, he can spit out three points at a time.

Not that I'm being a pig about it or anything.
 

Liam Jackson

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If I understand correctly, you have moments of inspiration and begin a story. Then, at some point, writing ceases to be "inspired" and becomes drudgery.

If this is the case, if sounds like you're hitting the dread "wall." I've heard numerous writers describe the same thing. And, I've heard three approaches to the problem.

First, back away from writitng, until the bug really hits you again, then take your story out of the desk drawer and look at it with a fresh eye.
(This may work for some, but if I tried it, I'd never get past "...it was a dark and stormy night.")

I've hit that damn wall myself, and the only way I can get past it is to "stick with BIC." (Butt in Chair) usually, if I keep writing, I hit another one of those inspired moments and the story comes to life again.

The third solution is to work from an outline. Storyboard the tale first, and let it help you through the tough spots.

Best of luck to you.
 
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James D. Macdonald

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John, I can tell you exactly what's happening with you.

You're hitting the dread "mid-book." The joy of the opening is far behind, the climax is out of sight beyond the horizon -- and you're paddling, paddling, paddling with no hope of an end in sight.

Lots of people quit right then.

If you get through it, though, you get to the climax, and that's lots of fun. If you make through the mid-book you'll be rewarded.

Later, when you're re-reading and revising you'll notice that the mid-book is where all the neat variations and clever twists and neat surprises took place. You won't see them while they're happening, but they're there. You revise to point 'em up, to plant 'em properly in the beginning and tie them off properly in the end.

Next time, rather than quitting, bull your way thorugh. And when I say bull, I mean bull. As in BS.

BIC and onward. You aren't allowed to stop until you hit "The End."

The road to publication is strewn with the bones of men who faltered and died during the mid-book.
 

lindylou45

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JohnLynch said:
It seems for me that every day is a not-fun writing day. Any recommendations Uncle Jim (or anyone else) on how to battle this problem?

Wow, I can't imagine writing not being fun. Yeah, there are days when I don't feel like it, but I'm always thinking about it or writing it out longhand.

I write because I love it and I can't imagine not doing it. Perhaps you need to think about whether you really want to write. It's not horrible if you don't want to write, just choose something else to do.

Good luck to you. :Sun:
 

Dawno

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The Index is up to date...for now

Just popping in to say that the index to this thread is current as of Uncle Jim's last post above. Hope it's helpful for finding stuff way, way upthread and as a companion to "The Undiluted" thread.
 

alaskamatt17

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I can't imagine writing not being fun, either. And the midbook is just as fun for me as the beginning or the climax. In fact, I think I enjoy it more than the beginning. Right now I'm in the middle of my favorite chapter I've ever written. It's long, too, about 6,000 words so far, with at least 2,000 left before the next chapter break. But it's been moving along so fast that I don't think it needs to be cut in two--just trimmed a little.

But as much as I like writing, I can see how you would dislike it if you wrote on the basis of inspiration. I used to do that, and there would be days where it just wasn't fun. Then, I learned about outlining. Now I don't need inspiration (though I gladly take it when it comes), I just stick to my plan, and hammer out 2,000 words per day (except today because I've been shirking my schoolwork and it's all due on Monday).
 

reph

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JohnLynch said:
Whenever I start writing, I'm extremely enthusiastic and enjoy it a lot, however if I spend too long on it, it always gets to the "not fun" stage (which it does in less then twenty pages everytime)...
You might experiment with different forms. Maybe shorter stories would suit your rhythms better.

Could it be that you get tired of an idea when you've thought about it so long that it isn't new and interesting?
 

Steve 211

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I hear ya, John. At one time I had the same deal. In fact, I could hardly get to the end of the second page without getting into a funk and writing, "And then a bomb fell and everyone died. The End."

How did I get out of it? Actually I spent a few years writing songs. Narrative songs, as with folk music, are great for honing your writing skills in that you have to compress so much into so few lines, as well as keep the dramatic rise and pay-off, with characterization through dialogue and first person narrative. Think of Neil Young's "Powderfinger" - a Civil War novel in about six verses.

Or just go with whatever form you're attracted to, such as sketching out how you'd of improved that movie you saw last night. Just anything to sharpen your dramatic tools and insight.

Then, if you're lucky, you'll happen to write out a few pages and something will hook and next thing you're into a novel. Sounds like you're already able to do that, but is it something you'd really want to read, or just what you think you should be writing? Make a list of your favorite books - the ones you re-read when you're sick in bed - and see what they have in common and what you could add to the genre.

In the end, though, writing's a lot like hiking. When I'm beginning a long hike up a mountain, I'm preparing myself for the long haul, when I'm in the midst of it, I'm not having fun but am mostly in pain, and when I get to the top of the mountain it's rarely what I hoped it would be. So why do I do it? I dunno. In some way I just like it. And the same with writing - I rarely think of it as fun. It's just what I've set out to do, and I do it. And that in itself is the reward.

Best of luck with it, and I'll close with something Dave Barry once said about writing:

Writing humor takes discipline and hard work. I have this theory. Here it is, My Theory about Writing: It’s hard. The humor doesn’t just flow out of me as easily as people think. A funny idea has to be tooled and shaped so that it’s funny to others when it’s read.

People think that because humor is light and easy to read, that it’s just as simple to write. Nothing could be more untrue. You have to work at it. Writer’s block, for example. People simply give up and don’t want to put forth the effort to work through the barriers. No good writing is easy. It all has to do with overcoming the obstacles we find in the way of our creativity. You just have to have the determination to do it.
 

Mistook

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James D. Macdonald said:
John, I can tell you exactly what's happening with you.

You're hitting the dread "mid-book." The joy of the opening is far behind, the climax is out of sight beyond the horizon -- and you're paddling, paddling, paddling with no hope of an end in sight.

Lots of people quit right then.

If you get through it, though, you get to the climax, and that's lots of fun. If you make through the mid-book you'll be rewarded.

Later, when you're re-reading and revising you'll notice that the mid-book is where all the neat variations and clever twists and neat surprises took place. You won't see them while they're happening, but they're there. You revise to point 'em up, to plant 'em properly in the beginning and tie them off properly in the end.

Next time, rather than quitting, bull your way thorugh. And when I say bull, I mean bull. As in BS.

BIC and onward. You aren't allowed to stop until you hit "The End."

The road to publication is strewn with the bones of men who faltered and died during the mid-book.


Just what I needed to hear, Uncle Jim! I'm at midbook right now, and floundering. You've given me the inscentive to press on and finish this first draft. Thanks!
 

brokenfingers

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JohnLynch said:
It seems for me that every day is a not-fun writing day. Any recommendations Uncle Jim (or anyone else) on how to battle this problem?

But how do I begin enjoying the process of writing the story again? Writing something when it's "not fun", isn't... very fun ;)

I ran into this also. What I did was to take all my characters, factions, organizations, governments etc. (I'm writing a fantasy) and make a list of all the possible conflicts that were possible between them.

Then I would choose a conflict and write a big scene (or scenes). I would throw everything I could into it too, figuring it'd be better to write it "hot" and get everything I could into it and then edit it later. The writing wound up being fun and got me over the "hump".

These scenes may or may not even be in the final product since they were not written in chronological order but they did help me get my juices flowing again as well as giving me a deeper understanding of who my characters were and what motivated them - plus how they reacted under pressure.

This wound up having another side effect also. I noticed that there was a lot of interpersonal conflict that I was not utilizing in my storytelling. Just because two people are on the same side doesn't mean that they agree on how to achieve the same goals.

Added tension and underlying conflict added vibrancy to my scenes.

Just some thoughts. Hope this helps.
 
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brokenfingers

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Allow me to add that I think Uncle Jim's contributions here on this Forum are priceless and this particular thread is a godsend to all new writers.

On behalf of new writers everywhere:

Thank you Uncle Jim.
 

Mistook

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My problem began when I finished the midbook chapter. It was (in my mind) a great, strategic battle - a climax all it's own. The good guys, in their foolhardy way, prevailed, but the stage is now set for a punishing revenge from the enemy, and at the same time - the secondary plot is only just beginning to boil.

I'm so satisfied with the chapter I've just written, and with the resolution of this immediate conflict, that I dread moving forward - into more convoluted tangles, and bigger - more complicated action scenes.

Also, there's this knowledge of word-count looming over me. I'm at nearly 40 thousand words. I have to tackle all the remaining B.S. in about that same span, but I've only just set it up! I've only just gotten the story to cook!

Can I handle the second half? Am I worthy? Will I screw it up so badly that they put my photo in the dictionary, under Disappointment?

It's daunting, but as Jim suggests, I'll paddle on toward the shore.
 

astonwest

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James D. Macdonald said:
You're hitting the dread "mid-book." The joy of the opening is far behind, the climax is out of sight beyond the horizon -- and you're paddling, paddling, paddling with no hope of an end in sight.

...

Next time, rather than quitting, bull your way thorugh. And when I say bull, I mean bull. As in BS.

Yup, that sounds like where I'm at right now...with two separate books.
I would love for you to expand on this 'bull your way through' strategy.

lindylou45 said:
Wow, I can't imagine writing not being fun. Yeah, there are days when I don't feel like it, but I'm always thinking about it or writing it out longhand.

I always think about it...and that's where the trouble begins. Half the trouble comes from my past experience (the publisher who shall not be named), and the other half comes from the inside (own worst critic syndrome). The two meld with one another to make a large stumbling block most days.

Guess I need a little more BIC time...
 

James D. Macdonald

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"Thinking about writing" isn't "writing." Only "writing" is "writing."

By "bull your way through" -- imagine that you're in a bar with your buddies. You're BSing like crazy. Just telling stories. "That reminds me," you say, "remember that chick Fred was going with? The one who used to braid her nostril hair?" And you're off.

Get the characters doing things. Move 'em around. Bring in a new character if you have to in order to liven things up, or let one of the earlier minor characters have a turn. Make stuff up.

You're competing with the TV over the bar, the pool table, and the beer for your friends' attention. (They're your friends because otherwise they wouldn't be here with you.) Give 'em some reason to listen to you, but talk regardless. Silence will for-sure turn their attention back to the TV.

You're going to revise this stuff anyway. Just get words on paper.
 

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The wall, for me, usually hits me early, about page 50. I have many stories about that length. I have to remember that the first draft with written with the heart, the second with the head.
 

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LiamJackson said:
If I understand correctly, you have moments of inspiration and begin a story. Then, at some point, writing ceases to be "inspired" and becomes drudgery.
That's it :)

LiamJackson said:
First, back away from writitng, until the bug really hits you again, then take your story out of the desk drawer and look at it with a fresh eye.
(This may work for some, but if I tried it, I'd never get past "...it was a dark and stormy night.")
Done this numerous times, and I've never gotten back to it.

LiamJackson said:
I've hit that damn wall myself, and the only way I can get past it is to "stick with BIC." (Butt in Chair) usually, if I keep writing, I hit another one of those inspired moments and the story comes to life again.
Good to know. It might be when I reach page 40 (something I've never done) it will all flow once more.

LiamJackson said:
The third solution is to work from an outline. Storyboard the tale first, and let it help you through the tough spots.
That's what I'm doing right now (thanks to this thread). In the past I've also been stuck with "well where do I go from here?" This time I know exactly where to go.

alaskamatt17 said:
I used to do that, and there would be days where it just wasn't fun. Then, I learned about outlining. Now I don't need inspiration (though I gladly take it when it comes), I just stick to my plan, and hammer out 2,000 words per day.
Hopefully I'll be able to become so self-disciplined that I can do that. At the moment, the fact I'm "bulling" my way through is an achievment ;)

lindylou45 said:
Perhaps you need to think about whether you really want to write. It's not horrible if you don't want to write, just choose something else to do.
In the past I have done that. I've resigned myself to the fact, I'm just not made for it. After all, I've been starting stories since I was 8. However I always keep starting up once more, because I do enjoy starting stories so much. It seems to be, no matter how much I have failed, I'll keep trying to write stories.

brokenfingers said:
I ran into this also. What I did was to take all my characters, factions, organizations, governments etc. (I'm writing a fantasy) and make a list of all the possible conflicts that were possible between them.

Then I would choose a conflict and write a big scene (or scenes). I would throw everything I could into it too, figuring it'd be better to write it "hot" and get everything I could into it and then edit it later. The writing wound up being fun and got me over the "hump".
Thanks, I'll certainly give that a go.

Mistook said:
Also, there's this knowledge of word-count looming over me. I'm at nearly 40 thousand words. I have to tackle all the remaining B.S. in about that same span, but I've only just set it up! I've only just gotten the story to cook!

Can I handle the second half? Am I worthy? Will I screw it up so badly that they put my photo in the dictionary, under Disappointment?
Has anyone bought the story from you? If not, you don't have a word limit. Write as much as you need to, if you need to, you can cut out a sub-plot or two, or split it up into several books. After all, Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series (famous fantasy series) was originally meant to be a trilogy. It's now up to book ten. It would have been nowhere near as good had Robert Jordan forced himself to limit the story to a trilogy.

This guy wrote an article in July 2002 about how he had a 3 year plan. He was going to write 3 books in 3 years and sell them or he'd quit. That was in 1994. He didn't write 3 books, he wrote 1 monster-sized book. It was probably the size of the original 3 books. In 2002 he still hadn't sold the novel, but he hadn't given up. He was having fun.

I read that article a few days ago (I just recently started reading the e-zine) and I decided to check him out, so I did a google search. He has a website and guess what, he's sold his first novel and it will be published later this year. Over a decade from when he first started and he's only just published his first novel.

So don't worry about word-count, write your story and only when you've hit the end should you worry about how big it is.

This coming from someone whose yet to finish his first novel ;)

James D. Macdonald said:
Next time, rather than quitting, bull your way thorugh. And when I say bull, I mean bull. As in BS.

By "bull your way through" -- imagine that you're in a bar with your buddies. You're BSing like crazy. Just telling stories. "That reminds me," you say, "remember that chick Fred was going with? The one who used to braid her nostril hair?" And you're off.

Get the characters doing things. Move 'em around. Bring in a new character if you have to in order to liven things up, or let one of the earlier minor characters have a turn. Make stuff up.

You're competing with the TV over the bar, the pool table, and the beer for your friends' attention. (They're your friends because otherwise they wouldn't be here with you.) Give 'em some reason to listen to you, but talk regardless. Silence will for-sure turn their attention back to the TV.

You're going to revise this stuff anyway. Just get words on paper.
Next time is this time, and I'll give it a go. After all, you haven't given me permission to stop ;) (Funny how having someone you need "permission" from helps people. After all, you're not going to do anything if we don't do what you say. But psychologically it helps to have someone who is an authority figure). Also, if I'm finding myself bored, I'll try to BS, add ridiculous stuff that I find funny and entertaining. After all, if a published author can do it (earlier in the thread you said you add stuff in the ms that's only meant to give your partner a chuckle and not end up in the book), I'm sure I can ;)

Thanks for all the advice and comments (even those who decided to delete their posts. It was still greatly appreciated ;)). And I'm glad to hear my question has helped other people too.
 

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JohnLynch said:
After all, Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series (famous fantasy series) was originally meant to be a trilogy. It's now up to book ten. It would have been nowhere near as good had Robert Jordan forced himself to limit the story to a trilogy.
*cough* *cough* I wish he had stopped at three. Just about everyone I know who initially loved it has given up on it, myself included. I used to buy the hardcovers as soon as they came out. Now I don't even know if there's one due out, or what number he's on.

There's nothing worse than reading hundreds of pages and realizing the plot has hardly advanced, nor have any of the subplots. He certainly could have done as good a job in three books, given how little has actually happened in each of the later books.

I agree with writing without regard to word length for the first draft. You can chop it down later.
 

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reph said:
You might experiment with different forms. Maybe shorter stories would suit your rhythms better.

Could it be that you get tired of an idea when you've thought about it so long that it isn't new and interesting?

It goes with EVERYTHING we do, including relationships. We don't just divorce our spouses just because the marriage is not as new and interesting and exciting anymore. Or do we? Do we bail because we're not "in love" anymore?

The same goes with everything we do, be it sports, work, etc. The thing is, as long as writing remains your passion and that you couldn't go one day without writing something, you still have it. There are days with that relationship doesn't feel that hot. And there are days when you can make love with your words all day. You just need to keep at it. There are good times, and there are bad times. It's really like giving birth (even though I've never given and will never give birth). When that baby is born, it IS a beautiful thing.
 

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brinkett said:
*cough* *cough* I wish he had stopped at three. Just about everyone I know who initially loved it has given up on it, myself included. I used to buy the hardcovers as soon as they came out. Now I don't even know if there's one due out, or what number he's on.

There's nothing worse than reading hundreds of pages and realizing the plot has hardly advanced, nor have any of the subplots. He certainly could have done as good a job in three books, given how little has actually happened in each of the later books.

I agree with writing without regard to word length for the first draft. You can chop it down later.

Yes! I dont think he could have done it as a trilogy; six books maybe. Book Three was the best in the series, by far, and was everything the other books should have been: exciting and fast paced.
 

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James D. Macdonald said:
(BTW, it's okay to query agents at the same time the manuscript is in a slush pile. Honest!)
What is the typical, polite way of handling that? I mean, I assume that the publisher doesn't need to know, but at what point do you say to the agent, "By the way, this novel of mine has been submitted to XYZ?" Do you do so in the initial query, or do you wait for the request-for-full, or do you not say a word until the agent agrees to work with you and your novel?
 
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