This is also why I would be hesitant.
It's not so much the races themselves. It's what they suggest about the rest of the book's content.
Standard Fantasy Races
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This is also why I would be hesitant.
It's not so much the races themselves. It's what they suggest about the rest of the book's content.
I agree that the "immortal elves" and the "evi orcs" theme has been done ad-nauseam. When I look at a fantasy book/game that has these races I immediately start making comparisons to see how this particular variation of that race stands against the original. And unless they differ in a striking way, I find it hard to care about them.
I like "standard" fantasy races alright. They're familiar and fun. But as has been said, it can't be the same old guff that people know from LOTR. Ethereal elves who live in forests and have ageless beauty, who hate the Scottish dwarven miners while both of them battle the black, filthy orcs has been done.
But that goes back to my first sentence. I like that, as do thousands of others. So the trick is to make it fresh. Maybe the dwarves subsist on mining and gem trading only because the Elves are extremely (or even magically) persuasive and tricked the dwarves into selling their surface real estate? That could also set up the disdain the races have for each other.
As for orcs, if you're going to use them, [wo]man up and call them orcs unless they are more than faceless monster-soldiers. This was most flagrant in The Inheritance Cycle, where the author barely changed the spelling, to "Urgals". They were functionally the same creatures, living amongst humans, elves, and dwarves named as such. Messed up. :S
But that goes back to my first sentence. I like that, as do thousands of others. So the trick is to make it fresh. Maybe the dwarves subsist on mining and gem trading only because the Elves are extremely (or even magically) persuasive and tricked the dwarves into selling their surface real estate? That could also set up the disdain the races have for each other.
As for orcs, if you're going to use them, [wo]man up and call them orcs unless they are more than faceless monster-soldiers. This was most flagrant in The Inheritance Cycle, where the author barely changed the spelling, to "Urgals". They were functionally the same creatures, living amongst humans, elves, and dwarves named as such. Messed up. :S
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I feel like there's a danger in trying too hard to make your fantasy races or creatures feel "new", and forgetting what really matters is you need to tell a good story.
I would focus on telling a good story that is eminently yours first and foremost. Whether your elves are too Tolkienish isn't as important as that, IMO.
I would focus on telling a good story that is eminently yours first and foremost. Whether your elves are too Tolkienish isn't as important as that, IMO.
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I was going to say this but kuwi said it first so I'll ditto him.
bearilou, a fellow Witcher fan
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Years and years back I remember spending a lot of time creating a setting for some fantasy stories and it just seemed like such a natural step to include races like elves, dwarves, orcs, gnomes, halflings and the such. I suppose after the sheer amount of books I read in the 80's that had those, it just seemed a basic tenet of secondary world stories. As the years passed though, I came to realize that more and more my setting did not have room for them. They just did not fit well in the story I wanted to tell, so I promptly removed them all. Now I've reached a point where I don't see myself using them ever, though if the right idea comes along, that may change. Still, I don't mind reading about them and if a book includes such races, I won't automatically put it down, though it has to be pretty good to keep me going. I've read enough Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms stuff in the past to reach my fill of such things.
Whenever there's a topic like this, I (with a certain amount of nostalgia) think back to my childhood and the folk tales was reading.
I especially loved the ones that dealt with the Devil. In my country's folklore the devil is nothing but a simpleton, outwitted every single time by a clever peasant (I won't go into the reasons why exactly we have this kind of folklore, but it has a lot to do with the history).
So, the first time I read a book (or watched a movie) about a Devil as understood in the Western folklore, I was very surprised - "What do you mean the Devil is EVIL?! and wants to ruin mankind? Where did you get this silly idea from?"
Then I read more (the Bible included) and started to understand the dual worldview and the Devil's place in it. But still, I chuckle every time somebody tries to sell me the "evil overlord" vision of the Satan.
I know it's off-topic, but it serves to illustrate how different cultures treat different supernatural creatures.
I especially loved the ones that dealt with the Devil. In my country's folklore the devil is nothing but a simpleton, outwitted every single time by a clever peasant (I won't go into the reasons why exactly we have this kind of folklore, but it has a lot to do with the history).
So, the first time I read a book (or watched a movie) about a Devil as understood in the Western folklore, I was very surprised - "What do you mean the Devil is EVIL?! and wants to ruin mankind? Where did you get this silly idea from?"
Then I read more (the Bible included) and started to understand the dual worldview and the Devil's place in it. But still, I chuckle every time somebody tries to sell me the "evil overlord" vision of the Satan.
I know it's off-topic, but it serves to illustrate how different cultures treat different supernatural creatures.
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Offtopic, but aren't Orcs under trademark? Don't take my word for it though.
Now, back to your regularly schedualed thread. I love standad fantasy races/creatures. They're fun to read for me when done well, but I do cringe at things like dark elves or orcs being catagorically evil. Not that it's bad per se. It's just that you never hear about orcs or creatures related to them that are on a quest for peace, which is a shame. The bad guy having normal hopes and dreams isn't used enough.
The mc in one of my wips is a very vaugely orclike creature, whose sent to negotiate peace with humans by her leader.
Why did her commander give her this mission? He just lost his two eldest children in a recent battle, and doesn't want his younger children to die like they did.
Now, back to your regularly schedualed thread. I love standad fantasy races/creatures. They're fun to read for me when done well, but I do cringe at things like dark elves or orcs being catagorically evil. Not that it's bad per se. It's just that you never hear about orcs or creatures related to them that are on a quest for peace, which is a shame. The bad guy having normal hopes and dreams isn't used enough.
The mc in one of my wips is a very vaugely orclike creature, whose sent to negotiate peace with humans by her leader.
Why did her commander give her this mission? He just lost his two eldest children in a recent battle, and doesn't want his younger children to die like they did.
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I wouldn't think orcs are trademarked. They're used in Tolkien, but they also show up in D and D, Warcraft, and plenty of other computer games. I think it comes from an Old English word, though the modern concept of what an orc is does stem from Tolkien. Interestingly, Tolkien used the term interchangeably with goblin, but games that used the term generally treat orcs and goblins as separate species.
The term hobbit is trademarked, I believe, which is why later editions of Dungeons and Dragons had to change the name of their short, furry-footed humanoids to "halfling," which isn't.
The term hobbit is trademarked, I believe, which is why later editions of Dungeons and Dragons had to change the name of their short, furry-footed humanoids to "halfling," which isn't.
Heh. I'd thought he'd used them to refer to different races of the same species, but yes, you're correct — he later favored "Orc" and had only used "goblin" in earlier stories since he thought readers would be more familiar with the term.
Interestingly, he had also wanted to call his Dwarves "Dwarrow" — the proper plural of "dwarf".
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While there's no reason it can't be done, it usually isn't. Personally, I haven't seen many Japanese creatures being featured much in anything outside of manga/anime. I also havent seen many creatures from none European cultures being written by European/American writers (except for genies, but they bear little semblence to their muslim roots). The cultures that created them typically continue to use them.
I agree with most of this. I think you could also mix up the relationships that the races have with each other. Like, why do elves and dwarves always have to hate each other? Or for that matter, does the presence of elves always have to necessitate the presence of dwarves (or orcs for that matter) and vice versa? What if one or both of the races had an issue with the race of men for a change of pace?
In my WIP I have humans and elves, but no dwarves except maybe in stories from far away lands, and no orcs, mainly because I don't like them and would rather make up something different if I need an evil race of creatures. There are some human and elf kingdoms that get along and some that don't. There are even some places where humans and elves hardly ever interact at all and therefore don't know what to think of each other.
Even still, as several others have said, it's the story itself that is the most important. Write a good story.
I'm researching fox folklore from different cultures at the moment - Japanese Kitsune in particular - because one of my ideas will rely heavily on foxes. I'm White English, and love foxes, but find that European folklore on foxes is rather lacking for my purposes; for instance, I've checked out Renard the Fox, but the stories seem quite childish compared to the likes of what the Japanese speak of the Kitsune (managed to find a translation of the Book of Kitsune online, the stories are quite varied with Kitsune ranging from the main characters to background characters).
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Elves, Dwarves etc. have been well established, so I don't have to spend alot of ink explaining what that entails, as I would if I created a new race or came up with a 'new take' on them. I'd rather focus on the story I want to tell..
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For me, the decision whether or not to include a non-human race would hinge on whether or not their presence serves the story in some way. There are lots of ways they could do this, but if they're just pretty humanoids who live in the forest (or short ones who live in the mountains), well, there's no reason humans can't live in the forest or the mountains.
But sometimes there are story-relevant issues that are best served through other races. The issue of immortality or being really long lived is an interesting one, and a humanoid race that lived a lot longer than we did would certainly have different concerns and priorities, regardless of what they looked like or how they lived. This could drive conflict or affect the fantasy world in various ways that the author chooses to portray.
The negative of the "standard" races is not so much the shades of Tolkien for me, but the shade of a kajillion role playing and video games.
But sometimes there are story-relevant issues that are best served through other races. The issue of immortality or being really long lived is an interesting one, and a humanoid race that lived a lot longer than we did would certainly have different concerns and priorities, regardless of what they looked like or how they lived. This could drive conflict or affect the fantasy world in various ways that the author chooses to portray.
The negative of the "standard" races is not so much the shades of Tolkien for me, but the shade of a kajillion role playing and video games.
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Not necessarily... there are enough variants and twists on the archetypes that just saying "elf" or "dwarf" isn't enough, IMHO. (And which archetype are you using? The pre-Tolkien elf, or the post-Tolkien/RPG elf?)
I have a soft spot for elves. I have them in one story and I like world building for them and seeing how their culture differs from humans. A bit of blue and orange morality. I was never exposed to any of that dark elf stuff so I never learned to dislike them and I plan on including in one of my stories, though not as a race made up of evil elves (or evil elves with one good elf). It is for the same reason I don't particularly like orcs: The idea of an entire race being all good or all bad seems odd to me.
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See I like orcs, because we know nothing of their culture. We've only seen them as evil creatures, not anything else. What if they decided they wanted peace with the other races? How do they live? Why do they fight? We just don't know, and I find that intriguing.