Trying to create a medieval fantasy setting

Mark Moore

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I'm currently developing a medieval fantasy setting for a possible shared universe of different types of stories. I've come up with two basic kingdoms so far: one based on western Europe (England, for example) and one based on eastern Europe (Transylvania, for example). The former will be the setting for adventures (though I'm gonna keep it at low-fantasy level for the most part, I think), palace intrigue, etc.. The latter will be for more "Gothic horror" types of stories (vampires, etc.). The former will be more upbeat; the latter will be more downbeat and focus more on human misery.

I want to have some kind of creation story that deals with the deity(s) creating the world. While the various stories could take place at any point that I choose, I'd like your opinions on what would be a reasonable amount of minimum time from creation to place these stories for there to be multiple kingdoms (they split at some point in the past) with decent-sized populations (assuming the deity(s) didn't create a vast amount of people at the outset, which might be an interesting twist).

One factor that I'm having trouble with that ties into this is the calendar. I've been experimenting with a system of time where one of their seconds equals one of our seconds, but there are 100 seconds in a minute and 100 minutes in an hour. But then what about the number of hours in a day? The number of days in a month? The number of months in a year? I'd like to have the humans of my world live longer than the humans of Earth (those still roughly the same number of "years"), but I don't want it to be too insignificantly longer nor too obscenely longer. 10 hours in a day and 365 days in a year, for example, makes their average lifespan roughly 115% that of our average lifespan. I'd like to find a good balance.
 

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I don't know if trying to create a world that bears a strong resemblance to ours, but has such a different system of time, would work or not. If it's to be a shared world, in particular, I'd consider keeping things simple for the fellow writers who will be contributing stories to it, as well as to your readers.

Time seems to be the one measurement that fantasy writers, at least writers of medieval european style fantasy, don't mess around with much. And in a medieval world, how salient are seconds going to be to most people anyway? While timekeeping is ancient, and the concept of the second is also very ancient, the second hand itself wasn't invented until the 18th century (I believe Franklin is credited). I suspect that seconds were not a go-to concept that most people had inside their heads until that time.

The question is, will this deviation from expected time intervals be something that plays into your stories at all?

Almost anything can be made to work in fantasy, however. It's really about making things internally consistent. And if you are sharing the world with other writers, deciding in advance what is canon and what is flexible.

I can't help you with creation stories, as they've never been my favorite thing in fantasy. I'm pretty vague about how my own fantasy world came to be, actually. I've kind of been back on forth about whether it's an evolved world,or if it was colonized magically by humans. There are numerous religions and cultures, and they each have their own versions of how things happened, much as in our own world. I can see wanting more coherence in a shared world, however. This might be something to brainstorm with your fellow writers for this project.
 
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ULTRAGOTHA

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Even minutes were not much used until railway schedules made them more important. There wasn't much technology for second counting, nor need for counting them, in the middle ages.

I do draw to your attention, the Tumblr and blog "Medieval POC" for many depictions of People of Color in (mostly) western European art.
 

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The question is, will this deviation from expected time intervals be something that plays into your stories at all?

This.

Sure, you could rewrite physics down to the subatomic level... but is it really necessary to do so? Especially if you're sharing this universe with other writers, how complicated do you need to make the ground rules? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Now, if you still want to play with this idea - and this could easily be a rabbit hole of no return - maybe make "decimalized" time important for your magic system or the higher echelons of your invented religion: the precise length of a chant or intonation being necessary for the success of a spell or a prayer, for instance, which must be calculated on "mystic" or "celestial" time, unrelated to the motions of the earthly sun. So the people who would be concerned with this level of precision would have the education and the means to accurately record it, while laypeople make do with less precise methods or the good ol' fashioned sundial.
 

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True about minutes too. And while striking clocks (town chimes) go back to the 13th century, and clocks with an hour hand to the 14th, minute hands didn't come into common use until the 17th century.

So even minutes might not be something that most people have in their head as a "go to" concept. I'm constantly catching myself when I start writing something like "a few seconds later," or "Wait a minute," or "After about five minutes," in my fantasy novel (which is not medieval, but in an setting that resembles the very early modern era/renaissance in many ways).

Some ways people in various societies had for measuring time before mechanical clocks were candle clocks, incense clocks, water clocks, hourglasses, sundials (of course). And before trains and telegraphs, there was no need for time zones or coordination of time across great distances. So people tended to calibrate by local noon and midnight.

When you think about it, how much does time usually figure into typical fantasy tales, aside from generalities like "moments," "heartbeats," "breaths," "sunup," "sundown," "midnight," "noon," etc?

I have hours in my world, and since part of my story takes place at a university, the characters do pay attention to the school chimes. They have to know when their classes start. Maybe town bells or chimes are something that would fit in your world, if it's later middle ages.
 
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WriteMinded

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I want to have some kind of creation story that deals with the deity(s) creating the world. . .
Does the deity tell people how long it took to make the world? OR, do the people make up stories about how long the deity took to make the world. Does any of this matter? You are the author. Whatever you tell me I am willing to believe . . . at least until the end of the book. :)

Still, I do like your idea about many people being created at once.

One factor that I'm having trouble with that ties into this is the calendar. . .
As a reader I don't want to be stopping to translate time periods so please make it as simple as possible OR avoid it altogether. If you are writing for Americans, don't make it hard for us. Remember, we failed metrics. :D
 

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Are you going to be explicitly comparing the lifespan in your created worlds to [Earth] human lifespans? If you're not, it doesn't really matter if they live 115% longer, because...well...there are no [Earth] human lives in your world to use as a yardstick.

Ditto for time units.

(I might well have misinterpreted what you said.)
 
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There are other ways to measure time than a clock. Inertial navigation was very important for open sea sailing. Columbus would never have been able to get across the Atlantic without some form of it. Second bell of the midwatch (ding ding ... ding ding). That is a specific time meaning.

Try hard boiling an egg accurately or better yet soft boiling without some form of accurate time measurement. Enter the hourglass, or more importantly for some things the minute-glass, or the three-minute-timer.

The farmer may not be concerned with measuring time in less than daytime/nighttime increments or thinking about the year other than in seasons, but there are many uses for time measurement in many different forms.
 
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Mark Moore

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Sorry, that was a poor choice of words. By "shared universe", I meant a world that various stand-alone stories that I write would share. I didn't mean other writers would be involved.

This is all at the world-building stage for now. I don't have any immediate, concrete ideas for medieval fantasy stories (and, indeed, no high-fantasy, epic, world-spanning saga in mind at all), but I figured having a world to put all of these stories in would be easier than trying to world-build every time that I get an idea for a medieval fantasy story.

The concept that I have for the religion is the deities want people to not be jerks to each other and want them to use their intellect to contribute something positive to society, no matter how small that it might seem. It's not a religion about specific laws and rituals. Some of the people at the time of creation were elevated to royalty and charged with implementing and maintaining these precepts.

Of course, over time, people went their own way, and numerous new religions (or permutations of the original religion) sprung up, mostly from self-proclaimed prophets that said "Oh, I got some additional revelation, and here's what the gods REALLY want. I can't offer you any proof, but trust me." And somehow they got people to believe them based on their say-so.

So the royal family of the England-like, ye olde medieval kingdom (one thing that I'm really having difficulty with is names for anything) has implemented an educational system, and time-keeping is a part of that. In the bigger cities, there would be bell-tolling, and some time pieces would be available in the palace and to those that really want them.

Meanwhile, the peasantry would measure things more vaguely, like "late day", "sundown", "early evening", etc., and each of these terms might be interpreted slightly differently by each person.

I've been thinking of making the religion a panentheistic religion with divine immanence (I've often wondered why God doesn't just do that on Earth, but then that leads to the question of why God created a "lower" physical realm separate from the "higher" spiritual realm in the first place instead of keeping everything spiritual), but, if the deities' existence and will were explicitly known to everybody at all times, then there's no room for conflict.

I might limit these to the members of the royal family. THEY know the deities' will in absolutely certainty, but they have to convince everyone else.
 

WriteMinded

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Uh, ya know, I'd be figuring out a story first and then get to the world building. Just goes to show how differently we all think.
 

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Uh, ya know, I'd be figuring out a story first and then get to the world building. Just goes to show how differently we all think.

It really does depend; some ideas start out as worldbuilding, some as characters, some as events. I've got an idea that probably won't be written - I'm leaning more towards animation - but for that the worldbuilding has come first because it's all about figuring out how a particular culture might work (the stories can come later).

Mind you, the people who live in that culture - and the people who live in the surrounding areas - will resemble South East Asians (doesn't really narrow it down that much, does it?); or to put it more simply, they'll be PoC, not White. While I won't be creating an analogue of any real world culture, it's incumbent on me to do a lot of research and a lot of thinking.
 

TheRob1

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In our world time has been divided by 12 since the Babylonians. It's something that people observed. If your day/night cycle is different than earth than it could work, but it sounds like it'll behard to pull off. Even in science fiction it can be difficult. In the Honor Harrington books (of which I've only read 1 so far) the manticore year is different than the terran year and the author spends a lot of time in the book calculating the differences for the reader.
 

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The French experimented with a decimalized time system in the late 1700s, but it was abandoned within a few years. The Chinese also had a decimalized time system for much of their history, though they also used dozenal time. I'd guess that any surviving decimal clocks are worth a lot to collectors now.
 
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snafu1056

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Deities usually dont get credit for creating kingdoms or civilizations. Civilizations are usually chalked up to founding human ancestors. There might be supernatural or folkloric aspects to the stories of these ancestors, but theyre usually not gods of creation.

Its entirely plausible to have multiple cultures that share a common ancestor, but I think that myth would have to be a seperate myth from your whole world creation myth. Like maybe a great ancient king had 10 sons, and each son is the ancestor of a different kingdom, that kind of thing.
 

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Moving away from the time system (which I find intriguing) lets look at your creation plan LOL

Just for fun lets say your deity creates your "Adam and Eve" at a child bearing age (let's say 15) and they procreate one child every other year for 32 years (to age 45) each child begins their own family at 15, at first with a sibling (don't eww me LOL this is the nasty fact of the traditional Judeo-Christian Creation that doesn't like to be touched on LOL) and lets just say your deity has a hand in this early mating and we have an even number of boys and girls. So we have 8 couples in the first generation (if my math is correct LOL a child every other year for 32 years, would be 16 children). Now, for simplicity sake--blame or thank your deity--lets say each of those couples also procreates for 32 years, so now you would have 128 children in the second generation. Again, assuming even numbers, we now have 64 couples. If each of those produce 16 children, you now have a third generation with 1,024 children. This generation would produce 512 couples providing you with a fourth generation of 8,192 people. That generation would produce 4,096 couples and they in turn would give you a fifth generation of 65,536 children.

Continuing with this, again this is assuming a 50/50 split of boys to girls and each of those children lives, no war, disease, famine, etc. AND each of these children are heterosexual, to produce children for 32 years, by 7 generations you should have a little over 4 million people. I'm using a 32 year model per generation, so within 224 years, that's where you would be.

If the deity were to give each "land" the same start (2 in Western Europe, 2 in Eastern Europe) you would have over 8 million in that time frame.

Again, this is assuming a lot, as I've mentioned, but that's at least a potential start for you.
 
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Roxxsmom

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Deities usually dont get credit for creating kingdoms or civilizations. Civilizations are usually chalked up to founding human ancestors. There might be supernatural or folkloric aspects to the stories of these ancestors, but theyre usually not gods of creation.

Like Romulus and Remus legend with Rome.

Or the Arthur legend re the forging of the Britons into a unified people.

Of course, prophets or heroes who are inspired by a god or gods can be credited with founding or uniting a civilization or a people, or with leading a group of people to found a civilization.
 

rwm4768

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You don't necessarily have to start out with two people in a creation story like that. If the deity can create two people, why can't they create more? Just some food for thought along a different line.
 

Bloo

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You don't necessarily have to start out with two people in a creation story like that. If the deity can create two people, why can't they create more? Just some food for thought along a different line.

oh for sure and the OP suggested that as well. I was just giving an approximation of how long it MIGHT take to happen following the two person creation idea.
 

Mark Moore

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Wow, Bloo, thanks. :) I like math and enjoy looking at population figures. (I'm fascinated by the world population clock and the list of living supercentenarians.) It looks like, if I go with the two-person creation, I wouldn't have to go too long before there's a decent-sized population. However, I'm going to go with a bunch of people being created at once, because only two leaves a lot to chance (I don't like two-person creation myths for this very reason, and it hurts my brain trying to figure out who Cain was afraid would kill him and why he felt the need to build a city).

Anyway, there won't be two kingdoms at the beginning, just one. The split will come sometime later.

In the western kingdom, the royal family, which is in constant communication with the deities, gives no official recognition to the various religions that are created by charlatans and/or influenced by lesser spiritual beings. However, in the eastern kingdom, these false religions flourish, and it might be fun to detail some of these eventually.
 

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. . . It looks like, if I go with the two-person creation, I wouldn't have to go too long before there's a decent-sized population. However, I'm going to go with a bunch of people being created at once, because only two leaves a lot to chance (I don't like two-person creation myths for this very reason, and it hurts my brain trying to figure out who Cain was afraid would kill him and why he felt the need to build a city).
It's the inbreeding that always bothers me. :D
 

Alli B.

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So the royal family of the England-like, ye olde medieval kingdom (one thing that I'm really having difficulty with is names for anything) has implemented an educational system, and time-keeping is a part of that. In the bigger cities, there would be bell-tolling, and some time pieces would be available in the palace and to those that really want them.


I've been thinking of making the religion a panentheistic religion with divine immanence (I've often wondered why God doesn't just do that on Earth, but then that leads to the question of why God created a "lower" physical realm separate from the "higher" spiritual realm in the first place instead of keeping everything spiritual), but, if the deities' existence and will were explicitly known to everybody at all times, then there's no room for conflict.

I might limit these to the members of the royal family. THEY know the deities' will in absolutely certainty, but they have to convince everyone else.
I think giving areas names is one of the best parts about world-building.

Also, I don't have much of an opinion on your calendar/time issues, but I wanted to just let you know that I think your world so far is pretty great. I love the ideas and foundation you have, and I'd be really interested in seeing which characters you create.

Uh, ya know, I'd be figuring out a story first and then get to the world building. Just goes to show how differently we all think.
I think initially my ideas start with a question about the world in general. I think about this world a bit more, and I think about all the great and weird things in this world. Then I think about what kind of people I want to talk about in this world. Then I figure out what they do. Usually, world-building is a constant process for me, so the outline eventually beats it, but the spark starts with a place far different than the world in which we live.
 

Mark Moore

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I think giving areas names is one of the best parts about world-building.

Yeah, but it's also one of the most difficult for me.

Even naming characters is difficult for me.

I wanted to just let you know that I think your world so far is pretty great. I love the ideas and foundation you have, and I'd be really interested in seeing which characters you create.

Awww, thanks. :)

Ever since I started writing to self-publish, I've kept a spreadsheet with various "ideas" (and I use that term very loosely) for possible limited series (that's how I write: series of short stories; I can't do novels). Usually, these'd be 1- or 2-word entries, such as "Magical Girl", "Treasure Hunter", "Medieval Princess", "Medieval Vampire Hunter", and so on. Just very basic concepts. I just jot them down whenever they pop in my head, but they've been sitting on that spreadsheet, undeveloped.

A while ago, I made the decision to create a universe for all of the modern-day concepts that I'd written down (with the exceptions of limited series such as "Vampire Killer" and "Blackjack Jill", which I'd already started). The central premise is a cosmic war between gods - and three college girls that fight on behalf of the "good" gods. Basically, to use an anime analogy, it's a "magical girl" series. I've privately been describing it to friends as "Sailor Moon Meets H. P. Lovecraft". The first story is pretty much done (I just gotta stop farting around and do the final revisions), and then other stories would follow, some of which would be connected to the main characters, but most would simply be in the same "spirit". Looking back on those story concepts, I realized a lot of them wouldn't warrant even a limited series, so I figured this would be a good solution. I could write a stand-alone story and have it occupy this universe. If I ever felt like revisiting the character later on, I could. If not, there's no feeling that it needs to be a series, since that one story would be part of a greater whole, anyway.

I've decided to create this medieval world for the same purpose: a place to house these potential future medieval stories.

I'm trying to decide on the number of deities. I would think there would have to be more than one, because, even if some lesser spiritual beings led people astray (angels, demons, etc.), having only one deity brings up the question of why she wouldn't end the conflict immediately.

So the logical thing (to me) is there are multiple deities of roughly equal power that are pitted against each other. This would explain why the good deities can't just win outright, and it would also explain the presence of things such as diseases and evil races of monsters.

However, the war between multiple deities thing is also part of my modern-day Earth universe (although the deities there aren't "good", they haven't had such a direct hand in human creation so much as got the whole process rolling eons ago and then let evolution take its course, and they decide to create a covenant with humanity only recently), and I don't want it to seem redundant.

I also need to develop a magic system for my medieval world. I'm using the classical elements as the basis in my modern-day universe, so I don't want to do the same thing here.
 

Thomas Vail

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It sounds a bit like you've got a case of world-building syndrome. It's a fun sandbox to play around in, but you can really end up over-focusing on laying down the minutiae of the universe and not get around to the stories that are supposed to occur there, because you want to keep putting that off until you get more setting detail finished.

It can help to just stop trying to nail down setting details, and just start with the stories, and when you run into something you don't have an answer for yet, see what organically occurs. The inconsistencies this creates can be a lot of fun, because historical memory, theological development, even events in living memory vary greatly from person to person, time to time. Especially when you're working with the basic 'medieval' style setting.
 

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I've been experimenting with a system of time where one of their seconds equals one of our seconds, but there are 100 seconds in a minute and 100 minutes in an hour.

For what story purpose? If it's just to be "different", that strikes me as a waste of effort.


what about the number of hours in a day? The number of days in a month?

Both culturally arbitrary in our society.


The number of months in a year?

Again, in our society, originally based on lunar phases, but that doesn't work out evenly for an orbital year, which is the single natural bit of time-keeping we experience. So we have made historical adjustments (twelve months, seven of 31 days, four of 30 days, and one dreadful depressing one of only 28 days, except on leap years, when it gets 29, and every couple of centuries we still need to add another one).

But, really, for a reader, what's the point of such trivia? How does this possibly affect your story?

If you postulate another habitable planet around another star, it seems inevitable that the orbital period will be the major unit of time-keeping, because that will determine things like agricultural planting, and all the magic that might be associated with such important a thing.
caw
 
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Thomas Vail

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One of the subtle bits of world-building I really like from ASoIaF is that G.R.R Martin's world seems to have no moon, and I'm fairly sure that the whole series is completely devoid of lunar based language (I learned this factoid well after reading the series).

Most people don't notice until it's pointed out to them, even though for us, no moon at all is really kind of a big thing, What would be the point of calling attention (somehow) to the fact none of these people have seen a moon? A decimal time system would be rather the same thing. Calling attention to the difference would not feel natural within the context of the narration, and then what purpose would it serve if you did so?