50 Shades of Grey trilogy goes from fan fiction to Random House

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Discord

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Here's a jaunty philosophical quandry for you fine folks:

Say I rewrote Twilight. Vampires, relationships, story was the same. The specific words themselves, structure, dialog etc. are different, but everything else, even the names, are identical. Clearly copying, yes? Clearly illegal.

Now say that this book I wrote was a masterpiece. With use of ironic narrative and brilliant satyrical language, I turned a fluffy teen romance into a cutting examination of attitudes towards love and sexuality in our culture. While the story is essentially the same, the book is essentially different because its aims are distinct. Read Meyer's Twilight and you may have a fun little romantic heartthrob. Read my Twilight 2.0 and you re-examine your life and existence. Twilight 2.0 is the voice of a generation. Twilight 2.0 turns a mirror on society and opens the eyes of millions. Twilight 2.0 is instantly heralded as a masterpiece.

It does this precisely because of its intertextual relationship with the original. Hypothetical me is a genius, I know :D

Now, this book is not new. This book is entirely illegal and I would get the pants sued right off of me and everyone I had a casual acquaintanceship with. In our modern legal situation, this book could never be published.

And what a loss that would be, since Twilight 2.0 would be so brilliant it would bring about world peace.

So should the Twilight 2.0 in my hypothetical be published?

This is the way that stories and art have been used and interacted with for the vast majority of human history. This is pretty much what Shakespeare did most of the time. In our modern world, Shakespeare would never be published, nor would Milton. He would be relegated to fanfiction websites and called a hack.

Modern copywright is a matter of financial legislation, not artistic integrity. Just because a work is not original in every respect does not mean it has no merit - and in some cases, it has more merit because it is designed to plug into a larger literary tradition. Restricting this restricts what literature can be created, and we may be missing out on thousands of works of genius.

Now, I'm a writer and I'd like to be paid as much as the next person. I believe artists should be supported and rewarded. But the question of how we do this while allowing artistic freedom and growth is an eternal question.
 

Torgo

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@Discord: I think it should be published, but I think you should give Meyer a cut of the proceeds.

(Much the same sort of process gave us King Lear and Hamlet, as you note.)

EDIT: I think Meyer deserves a cut, but only for the term of copyright; and term of copyright should be fixed at a sensible level that balances the rights of creators with the public good. The current life+70 years regime is crazily skewed in favour of creators (or, really, their grandchildren.)
 
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Juneluv12

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I agree that if Smeyer doesn't sue, she should at least get a cut.

It's in an odd way kinda like when Vanilla Ice got in all that trouble for using the same hook in Ice Ice Baby as Queen's Under Pressure. Eventually, they got a cut of the royalties for the similar beat.

After all those similarites from the blog post, I don't know how anyone could not see how 50 Shades mirrors Twilight...just not with creatures.
 

gothicangel

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Here's a jaunty philosophical quandry for you fine folks:

Say I rewrote Twilight. Vampires, relationships, story was the same. The specific words themselves, structure, dialog etc. are different, but everything else, even the names, are identical. Clearly copying, yes? Clearly illegal.

Actually there's nothing illegal in this hypothesis, it's derivative crap, but not illegal. For it to be plagiarism, it would require for the wording to be ad verbatim. Copying, yes, illegal no [also note that plagiarism isn't criminal, it's civil law.]
 

heza

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Actually there's nothing illegal in this hypothesis, it's derivative crap, but not illegal. For it to be plagiarism, it would require for the wording to be ad verbatim. Copying, yes, illegal no [also note that plagiarism isn't criminal, it's civil law.]


Trademark infringement?

Also, is the mythical Twilight 2.0 satire?
 

Discord

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Trademark infringement?

Also, is the mythical Twilight 2.0 satire?

More of an analogy. I'm quite serious in the argument that writing that infringes copyright could still be worthwhile art, and that the jealous way that we guard our ideas now is an extremely new invention. I just presented it somewhat facetiously :)
 
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No, it would still be plagiarism.

Plagiarism includes both word-for-word copying and copying the nuts and bolts of a story closely enough so that its roots are obvious.
 

readitnweep

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I think there's a big difference between being inspired by a book and stealing the ideas/characters/plot of another author - er, especially if you lift all three at once.
 

Deleted member 42

More of an analogy. I'm quite serious in the argument that writing that infringes copyright could still be worthwhile art, and that the jealous way that we guard our ideas now is an extremely new invention. I just presented it somewhat facetiously :)

Err . . . no. It really isn't.

The judgement of Diarmait: to every cow her calf, to every book its copy.

The idea of a license to copy goes back to the Renaissance in Western Europe.

One of the earliest references to Shakespeare in 1592 by Robert Greene in his Groats-worth of Witte:

for there is an upstart Crow, beautified with our feathers, that with his Tygers hart wrapt in a Players hyde, supposes he is as well able to bombast out a blanke verse as the best of you: and beeing an absolute Johannes fac totum, is in his owne conceit the onely Shake-scene in a countrey.

The "beautified with our feathers" is a reference to his "borrowing" of others' words.
 

Deleted member 42

Actually there's nothing illegal in this hypothesis, it's derivative crap, but not illegal. For it to be plagiarism, it would require for the wording to be ad verbatim. Copying, yes, illegal no [also note that plagiarism isn't criminal, it's civil law.]

Err . . .no. Because of the films, there's a bunch of trademarks on names; so if a writer uses Twilight names, in a Vampire context, for instance, it's not unlikely that there will be legal problems.

Plagiarism, by the way, isn't illegal in North America or the EU; copyright infringement is illegal.

Plagiarism is unethical, but not necessarily illegal, unless it violates copyright law or other statutes.
 

Lexxie

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You cannot really compare Shakespeare et al to our modern times, though. Shakespeare worked with Peele and others to write plays, because they had a very short time to write plays and put them on stage. Shakespeare then was good enough / lucky enough to also become a stockholder in the theatre The Globe, and earned more money that way.

Even if 'nothing' is original anymore, there is a very big difference between taking inspiration from something that has already been written to actually lifting complete characters or plot or verbatim dialogue or text.

Even without being completely original, I think that a writer who is not able to create his or hers own characters should not be published. Even among people in the real world, there are similarities and differences among us, but I think it would be almost impossible for two people in the same circle of friends /acquaintances to have characters traits that are totally identical. Even among friends who 'try' to be the same, there will be some differences, which is why it is, IMO, really bad when you can recognize one character from one book and one author as similar to another character from another book by another author.

Even if it is not illegal to do so, I would not be willing to spend my hard-earned money on copies. And if I did spend money on a book that had blatant copies in the story or characters, I would be really angry about it.
 

Sheryl Nantus

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Actually - I feel sorry for this woman.

Whatever she produces in the future, and you *know* her agent/publisher is chomping at the bit for her to produce something RIGHT AWAY, will be scrutinized beyond belief.

It's one thing to scrub a fanfic trilogy, quite another to produce an original work. Now everyone's going to be looking for her to write something that's her own and not obviously old fanfic scrubbed clean.

She may be making money but I wouldn't take her spot for a million dollars...
 

Deleted member 42

You cannot really compare Shakespeare et al to our modern times, though.

Sure you can I just did. :D

The truth of the matter is that the playwrights and theater owners were just as litigious, and sued over the right to copy all the time.

The reason we have the quarto editions of Shakespeare's plays is because they're bootleg ilegal copies—complete with the errors one expects even now from a "pirate" copy.

YI think that a writer who is not able to create his or hers own characters should not be published. .

So much for all the Nancy Drew, Hardy Boys and Tom Swift books, all the media tie-ins etc.

That's not the way publishing works.
 

Lexxie

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Sure you can I just did. :D

The truth of the matter is that the playwrights and theater owners were just as litigious, and sued over the right to copy all the time.

I guess I did do that as well, didn't I? :D What I meant was that they did actually work together, even if they all also stole from each other.
 

Phaeal

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gothicangel

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You cannot really compare Shakespeare et al to our modern times, though. Shakespeare worked with Peele and others to write plays, because they had a very short time to write plays and put them on stage. Shakespeare then was good enough / lucky enough to also become a stockholder in the theatre The Globe, and earned more money that way.

Even if 'nothing' is original anymore, there is a very big difference between taking inspiration from something that has already been written to actually lifting complete characters or plot or verbatim dialogue or text.

Even without being completely original, I think that a writer who is not able to create his or hers own characters should not be published. Even among people in the real world, there are similarities and differences among us, but I think it would be almost impossible for two people in the same circle of friends /acquaintances to have characters traits that are totally identical. Even among friends who 'try' to be the same, there will be some differences, which is why it is, IMO, really bad when you can recognize one character from one book and one author as similar to another character from another book by another author.

Even if it is not illegal to do so, I would not be willing to spend my hard-earned money on copies. And if I did spend money on a book that had blatant copies in the story or characters, I would be really angry about it.

Damn, I better trunk my star-cross'd lovers WIP then.
 

aruna

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No, it would still be plagiarism.

Plagiarism includes both word-for-word copying and copying the nuts and bolts of a story closely enough so that its roots are obvious.

Then Miss Meyer owes the Octavia Butler estate for The Host, shameful ripoff of the Lilith's Brood trilogy that it is.
 

Manuel Royal

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In our modern world, Shakespeare would never be published ... He would be relegated to fanfiction websites and called a hack.
No, he'd be published. Probably win a Pulitzer.

Shakespeare often used sources that were already hundreds of years old; even if they'd had our copyright laws, it would have been public domain. For some of his plays, there's no known specific source. Mostly likely Shakespeare made up a plot, no doubt with various influences; that's merely being derivative (which any modern work can hardly avoid being to some degree).

And many of his best plays are historical. If I could write a brilliant play about, say, Hiram Revels (the first black Congressman during Reconstruction -- and still, incredibly, one of only six black Senators this country has ever had) I'd go to town on it.

If he did have to deal with modern copyright, I've no doubt Shakespeare would do okay. I don't think he'd have any trouble coming up with his own stories.

In the case of your hypothetical brilliant plagiarism of Twilight, you'd have to consider it an interesting exercise, put it away, and use your literary genius to produce something original.
 
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