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    • You can still volunteer to Beta for someone else; just please don't request someone to Beta for you until you're more familiar with the community and our members.

What do writers want from beta-readers?

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Karen Junker

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If you want to know what a writer wants from you, it's best to ask.

I have to be honest. I can't read something with typos or other errors without pointing them out. I'm just constitutionally incapable of it. I tell people that before I beta for them. It means a lot more work for me and if they don't want that up front, then I'm not the best beta for them.

I'd love to have a beta who is willing to take the time from their own work to read and brainstorm with me (which is more than a beta is meant to do, I know). I would love to work collaboratively with someone if I felt that it would work -- but as it is, every beta I've had has been too busy to really take that on.
 

LucindaLynx

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I have to be honest. I can't read something with typos or other errors without pointing them out.

I dare to say this out loud now: my thoughts exactly.

I'd love to have a beta who is willing to take the time from their own work to read and brainstorm with me (which is more than a beta is meant to do, I know). I would love to work collaboratively with someone if I felt that it would work -- but as it is, every beta I've had has been too busy to really take that on.

I admit, I've been thinking something like that as well.
 

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I want someone to give me ideas to make my work better. Period, end of story.
 

nonasuch

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I'm lucky to have a dear friend who is also an excellent beta reader. The best thing about her is that she doesn't let me pull my punches: she pushes me to work out the implications and impacts of things I'd just hint around on my own. She doesn't let me cut narrative corners and calls me out when I try to cheat. And she has a good ratio of carrot to stick, because she'll also praise the bits she thinks are genuinely good. I think I'm a much better writer than I would be without her, and the stories I get her feedback on always do better than the ones that don't fall under her scrutiny.
 

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I'm lucky to have a dear friend who is also an excellent beta reader. The best thing about her is that she doesn't let me pull my punches: she pushes me to work out the implications and impacts of things I'd just hint around on my own. She doesn't let me cut narrative corners and calls me out when I try to cheat. And she has a good ratio of carrot to stick, because she'll also praise the bits she thinks are genuinely good. I think I'm a much better writer than I would be without her, and the stories I get her feedback on always do better than the ones that don't fall under her scrutiny.
Me too!

(I married mine ;) )
 

Burnouts3s3

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In short? Plot critique.

I've been writing for a good while now and I've basically gotten a handle on style, dialogue and subtext. But, mostly, I need someone to question how a plot goes and whether or not to change it or edit it.

If a plot doesn't make sense, I need someone to point it out for me.
 

Bread

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my preference

I'm the type that likes brutal honesty. If I completely disagree with something they've said I'd just ignore it in the end. After all I can only follow my own judgement when it comes right down to it.
I really love people who are willing to be honest with me and argue their point. A good debate is like wood to my flame. I'm truly grateful to those friends I have that are as stubborn as me.
 

writeontime

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These were my golden rules for beta reading:


1. I do not do fantasy, sci-fi, gay romances or gay erotica - ever.

2. The writer has to think that the work is nearly ready to start querying agents before they ask me to beta read it. When I do this, I am looking for plot holes, story arcs, whether the characters are believable or not etc. I do not do this to do half of the work you should have already done - spelling and punctuation etc.
3. I will only take on full manuscripts, no itsy bitsy parts and the odd chapter here and there, it's all or nothing.


These rules are useful guidelines and similar to mine. When I first started out as a beta reader, I was a little naive. I made the mistake of not stipulating what I'd read and not read. I also made the mistake of not asking the author exactly what type of feedback she was seeking. I also made the mistake of not stipulating that the author should not submit a raw MS. The result of those mistakes? I received a manuscript that was, not to put too fine a point on it, PWP. No plot, raw script, grammar howlers, spelling mistakes, punctuation that made my eyes water. It was a nightmare to beta. I returned it, with corrections and suggestions. The upshot or it? She rejected my corrections and accepted the ones from another beta, who had gushed over her MS. Needless to say, I've learned my lesson, which was an invaluable one.

As a beta reader, I now ask the author exactly what they are seeking from me: do they want me to look at the MS purely in terms of story arc, characterisations, plot holes, plot points? Or are they simply asking me to correct their punctuation, spelling and grammar?


But what do people actually want from beta-readers? I'm honest with what I think and I do try to write my notes nicely to explain what doesn't work and that I personally don't like. I am often met with defensiveness, yes, which I can understand, I'm the same about my work. [...] Beta reading takes a lot of time to do, time in which I could be writing and correcting my own work. Am I always supposed to say people's works are brilliant, even if they're not?


As a writer myself, and as someone who is also a beta reader, I do understand your conundrum. As a writer, I also value the time and effort that beta readers contribute.

I think, for me at least, it's essential to have a beta reader who is sympathetic to the genre in which I'm writing. So, that's the first thing I consider. Another thing I consider is whether the beta reader is willing to give feedback on plot, characters, dialogue, story arc. Is the story believable? Do the characters and their dialogue make sense within the parametres of the narrative?


I've also, on occasion, had three beta readers for a story - it made sense to them and to me to test out this particular story. The feedback on the manuscript, when it returned, and the subsequent debate was invaluable.
 

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Finding a critique partner that meets all of your needs is like dating. It's immensely challenging and you have to endure a lot of toads to find those few perfect matches. Sometimes you think you found "the one" only to be let down.

For clarification, I define critique partners as a pair or group of writers who swap projects and critique each other’s work. These writers are generally equal when it comes to their grasp of writing mechanics, etc.

I personally love beta reading. I feel it improves my writing and/or self-editing skills. If you intend to swap projects, ideally you want someone whose strengths balance out your weaknesses. Let’s say you have a problem with structure. Seek out a CP who is a whiz at identifying structural problems. If your strengths are voice and pacing, look for a writer who needs work in these areas. This results in a beneficial partnership.

Now let’s get down to the nitty-gritty. My ideal critique partner:

  • Is well versed in the mechanics of writing.
  • Possesses the ability to recognize and comment on storytelling elements such as: voice, style, tone, pacing, structure, character development, dialogue, showing v. telling, plot, passive v. active voice, etc.
  • Reads or writes in my genres.
  • Offers constructive criticism in a polite manner. It’s not what you say but how you say it. The key is to find someone whose style works for you. I prefer to develop a friendship with my CPs so the process is more fun and rewarding. I love to brainstorm with and bounce ideas off my critique partners. (A great place to test drive CPs is the SYW forum!)
  • Communicates with me. I can’t stress this enough. You both need to voice your needs—everything from what type of critique you want to a proposed timeline—before agreeing to a swap. (I find it’s best to swap three chapters and agree to return them on the same day/time before agreeing to a full swap.)
  • Someone with the ability to convey his/her reasoning behind suggested edits. Comments like “this doesn’t work for me” aren’t very helpful. If something in your MS isn’t working for me, I’ll do my best to explain why and will offer solutions.
  • Is consistent. This applies more to long-term partnerships. I like to work with beta readers over the course of multiple edits. It’s very confusing when a beta praises something in rounds one and two only to turn around and later say this doesn’t work in round three. Now this isn’t a problem if there’s a caveat, such as your recent edits make this chapter redundant or the transition between chapters 3 and 4 is really clunky now. But to change from love it! blah blah to not so much blah blah with no explanation is frustrating. When I beta read a piece more than once, I always review my previous notes first. I usually don’t even have to do this as I’ve got a good memory. ;)
  • Pays attention to detail.
A few of my pet peeves:

  • Critique partners who rewrite your manuscript to suit his/her tastes or to reflect his/her writing style.
  • People who don’t thank you for your time. You don't have to agree with a beta reader's suggestions but you should always thank them for taking time out of their busy schedules to read your MS.
  • People who don’t communicate.
  • Rude people.

In closing, we see a lot of brand new members posting in here asking for beta readers, as in members with no posts. You wouldn't ask your boss for a raise on your first day of work, would you? The same applies here. Contribute to the forum before making such a request. A little goes a long way. ;)

I'm sure I'll continue to add to my list. :e2writer:
 

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The first time I wrote a novel, I sent the second draft to a few friends to beta read. It was not the final draft and explained that I just wanted feedback on the story. The experience was more frustrating and hopefully is not repeated.

The beta readers were looking for grammatical and flow errors. They were not reading the draft for enjoyment, but to edit. The suggestions were more changes in style than editing. In a way it seemed that they were showing off their ability to edit, and were so determined even Hemingway would have been torn up.

All 3 beta readers ignored the plot and characters entirely, and were more interested in showing my what they did. None of these readers were writers, and 2 had very poor grammar.

Personally, I would want a beta reader that would point out drastic errors in grammar and suggestions in style, and focus mainly on the story. I am not sure where the beta reader comes in for most authors, but it seems that it would be most effective after I have done a final edit but have not submitted to an editor (I have a friend willing to edit my work) who would catch most of my errors (which are hopefully few).
 

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I would like to thank all of you who have contributed to this thread. I signed up for AW primarily to be a beta, and these responses have been very educational both in what writers want and in how I should conduct myself.
Thank you again.
Tipper
 

Sheluvspink

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I think what a writer wants from a beta should be expressed immediately since a lot of people expect different things. What I expect from a beta before anything is open communication and honesty.

I'd prefer someone who has free time so my critiques aren't caught in limbo for months but if they are upfront with me about that from the get go I am more understanding since they are taking their time to help me, but if there will be no help I'd rather that be stated so I can find someone else.

I generally like my beta's to read for continuity, style, and the overall tone of my story. Now I definitely am lacking grammar wise but I typically will ask a beta specifically for that service..usually someone I know personally so that my other beta's won't have to juggle the job of an editor and critiquer. I think the bottom line if everyone is up front and open about what is being offered and expected we'd all be happy campers.
 
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shayla.mist

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The first time I wrote a novel, I sent the second draft to a few friends to beta read. It was not the final draft and explained that I just wanted feedback on the story. The experience was more frustrating and hopefully is not repeated.

The beta readers were looking for grammatical and flow errors. They were not reading the draft for enjoyment, but to edit. The suggestions were more changes in style than editing. In a way it seemed that they were showing off their ability to edit, and were so determined even Hemingway would have been torn up.

All 3 beta readers ignored the plot and characters entirely, and were more interested in showing my what they did. None of these readers were writers, and 2 had very poor grammar.

Personally, I would want a beta reader that would point out drastic errors in grammar and suggestions in style, and focus mainly on the story. I am not sure where the beta reader comes in for most authors, but it seems that it would be most effective after I have done a final edit but have not submitted to an editor (I have a friend willing to edit my work) who would catch most of my errors (which are hopefully few).

My God, this happened to me so many times! Even in critique groups or especially in crit groups, people prefer showing off their editing skills instead of actually intending to help the writer better their plot. Even when I specifically ask them not to critique line-by-line, but to tell me about the overall experience, they rather do it their way, and then explain to me, as if I were an idiot, that line-by-line will actually help my writing ('cause, you know, basically my sentences all suck without it).

I especially hate it when beta readers delete my sentences and re-write them their way. Now, wait a minute people, it's my writing. You don't touch a person's writing even if you have to bite your fingers off to stop yourself. You don't like it, you write your own version of the story (so then I can sew your for plagiarism *kukukuh*), but don't touch my words. It's not that I love my words. Every time I write, I hate every single words and kick myself for my poor vocabulary, but that's my right alone. Others shouldn't have the audacity to offend me unless they're really good friends who's opinions I trust and respect, not complete strangers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than okay with betas suggesting I rephrase a sentence or a whole paragraph, but I hate those who do it without having the common sense of asking for permission. What that tells me of this person? That they think they're smarter and better than me and that I don't have the right to say anything in the matter. Talk to the hand, buddy.

LOL, sorry for the long rant >_<
 

G. Applejack

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My God, this happened to me so many times! Even in critique groups or especially in crit groups, people prefer showing off their editing skills instead of actually intending to help the writer better their plot. Even when I specifically ask them not to critique line-by-line, but to tell me about the overall experience, they rather do it their way, and then explain to me, as if I were an idiot, that line-by-line will actually help my writing ('cause, you know, basically my sentences all suck without it).

I especially hate it when beta readers delete my sentences and re-write them their way. Now, wait a minute people, it's my writing. You don't touch a person's writing even if you have to bite your fingers off to stop yourself. You don't like it, you write your own version of the story (so then I can sew your for plagiarism *kukukuh*), but don't touch my words. It's not that I love my words. Every time I write, I hate every single words and kick myself for my poor vocabulary, but that's my right alone. Others shouldn't have the audacity to offend me unless they're really good friends who's opinions I trust and respect, not complete strangers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than okay with betas suggesting I rephrase a sentence or a whole paragraph, but I hate those who do it without having the common sense of asking for permission. What that tells me of this person? That they think they're smarter and better than me and that I don't have the right to say anything in the matter. Talk to the hand, buddy.

LOL, sorry for the long rant >_<



Wow Shay, as one of your critique partners, and someone who thought we had a writing relationship, this is... really disheartening to hear.

I'm going to stay classy and not air dirty laundry to the forum. But I'm going to let this speak for itself:

You don't like it, you write your own version of the story (so then I can sew your for plagiarism *kukukuh*), but don't touch my words.

Please PM or email me. Clearly, we have matters to discuss.

~ Genna
 

shayla.mist

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Don't worry G. I wasn't referring to you or our people in our current group. I would've definitely told you if it bothered me what you edited in my stories and, if you are who I think you are (cause I don't recognize you by this username) I don't even think this is your editing style. But, in general, some betas tend to lack common sense like that and I needed to share my experience here. Anyway, I'll PM you so you can speak up your mind if you think we have a problem :)
 

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Beta Reading

Good Morning,

Given the present status of my manuscript, this thread is interesting, and exceptionally relevant.

If I'm not mistaken, it is something I have been searching for - guidance.

Not to be presumptuous, I have questions:

Beta readers critique others work?

Do you read full manuscripsts?

Do you read adjustments after the writer re-writes (either full manuscript or excerpts)?

Is the beta critique a final preparation for professional editing?

And finally, as a noobie with limited posts, is it within site protocol to seek a beta reading/critique in place of waiting to post in Share Your Work?

If possible, I would like to discuss a beta reading.

Thank You,
6gear
 

c.m.n.

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Shay,

I'm sorry you feel that way about critique groups and beta readers, but can I point out one thing.

Not only will beta's and critiquer's change your sentences without "direct" approval, but your pro editor's will too. They'll add things like commas and periods, combine sentences to link each other, and so on and so forth.
This is their job.

With beta's and crits, it's your responsibility to know what you want to keep or know what you don't. It's not a case of plagiarism, it's a case of someone trying to help.
 

buz

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Welcome, 6gear. :D I'll give your questions a shot.

Beta readers critique others work? Yes.

Do you read full manuscripsts? A beta reader typically reads the entire manuscript after you, the writer, believe it is done, and as good as you can possibly get it on your own. However, you can ask for other arrangements--people are usually willing to critique excerpts--but the general idea is that a beta reader reads finished work, not work in progress. Critiquers, writing partners, "alpha" readers--whatever--there are a number of other terms you can use to find someone to help with the "work in progress" stage, if you want.

Do you read adjustments after the writer re-writes (either full manuscript or excerpts)? That is something you can discuss with the beta reader; I think it will vary by individual preference. Personally, if I've beta read and established a good "writing relationship" with someone, I'm generally willing to read revisions, but I do think at that point my feedback is compromised and no longer as valuable as a fresh reader's.

Is the beta critique a final preparation for professional editing? It is a "final test" that some writers choose to seek out before submitting the manuscript to an agent or a publisher (or, if you plan to self-publish, to a professional editor). It happens after you've done everything you can do on your own but before you send it out for submission. It's not, like, a *required* thing, but many people find it helpful.

And finally, as a noobie with limited posts, is it within site protocol to seek a beta reading/critique in place of waiting to post in Share Your Work? You *can* do so, but I wouldn't recommend it. Most people like to see you around on the forums, to get to know you a bit, to see your writing and what it's like, to know that you've actively tried to improve it, that you've gotten critique before and have a vague idea of how it goes, etcetera. Being an active part of the community is a huge advantage when seeking a reliable someone to enter into a "writing relationship" with you. :D

Does that help?
 

shayla.mist

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Shay,

I'm sorry you feel that way about critique groups and beta readers, but can I point out one thing.

Not only will beta's and critiquer's change your sentences without "direct" approval, but your pro editor's will too. They'll add things like commas and periods, combine sentences to link each other, and so on and so forth.
This is their job.

With beta's and crits, it's your responsibility to know what you want to keep or know what you don't. It's not a case of plagiarism, it's a case of someone trying to help.

Yes, I've heard that, AZ. I haven't yet worked with an editor, but I've been told how they work. But an editor is not the same with beta/critiquer. Betas are the first to read your work. They must help you build a plot that makes sense and strong characters and, generally speaking, they should help improve your story, not your grammar. Cleaning up useless sentences and grammar errors is the editor's job, not the beta's job. At least that's how I see it. when a beta corrects my sentences, I feel like they're sending me the message that I'm not on the same level as them. Whereas beta readers should be your equals, your partners, not act as your editors.

Anyway, it seems Jan misunderstood me. I was not insulting my current crit group (well, ex-group by the looks of it), but generally speaking, I do not recommend crit groups, form personal previous experiences.
This wasn't about crit groups anyway. It was about something I said that Jan felt it was addressed to her.

I just talked about what I don't want from a beta-reader, as opposed to what I do want from a beta-reader, because basically I can take anything from a beta-reader except from those comment that sound like they're acting smart and superior, but you can tell they didn't even pay attention to the story itself. I'm pretty sure anyone has, at least once, stumbled upon a beta like that. 'Cause I've had these kinds of experiences as well.

God, I hope you, at least, didn't feel insulted as well. Tell me you didn't. I couldn't live with myself [>.<]
 

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Yes, I've heard that, AZ. I haven't yet worked with an editor, but I've been told how they work. But an editor is not the same with beta/critiquer. Betas are the first to read your work. They must help you build a plot that makes sense and strong characters and, generally speaking, they should help improve your story, not your grammar. Cleaning up useless sentences and grammar errors is the editor's job, not the beta's job.

You're right. It is the editor's job to clean up useless grammar and spelling errors. However, can you imagine if an editor didn't have to clean up a lot of those errors in someone's ms? It would make the whole editing process for him/her so much easier.

That's also what beta reading/critiquing is about. It's not just about critiquing plot line and character descriptions, etc. It's also to help the author learn proper grammar so they can apply that to their future projects, and so the editor doesn't have to clean up so much.

No one is saying that you (the author) don't know jack. We're only helping you improve.

I view a beta like a "pre-editor". They won't catch everything, but they may catch a lot of my mistakes.

God, I hope you, at least, didn't feel insulted as well. Tell me you didn't. I couldn't live with myself [>.<]

I didn't necessarily feel insulted. Just understand that there will be beta's and critiquer's of all sorts. Some will give you plain advice and some may seem really rude - marking up everything.

It's all how you decide to use their suggestions and advice to your advantage. And not let it get you down.

I think, as writer's, our brains are trained to spot errors. I'm sure there are people reading this post right now who are itching to correct.
 

shayla.mist

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I'm sure there are people reading this post right now who are itching to correct.
Me included, believe me. My beta does correct my grammar and I have absolutely nothing against it. But, I repeat, it all depends on their attitude. And, true, it also depends on how you, as (wannabe) writer interpret their attitude.

Anyway, I don't wanna monopolize this thread. If any of you girls wanna chat with me about our critique group, you know where to find me in private.

I've already stated my opinion regarding the topic of this particular thread. It wasn't targeted at any of my current betas 'cause I wouldn't have been this stupid (though obviously someone thought I am) and I'm sorry if you girls felt that way.
 

buz

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Yes, I've heard that, AZ. I haven't yet worked with an editor, but I've been told how they work. But an editor is not the same with beta/critiquer. Betas are the first to read your work. They must help you build a plot that makes sense and strong characters and, generally speaking, they should help improve your story, not your grammar. Cleaning up useless sentences and grammar errors is the editor's job, not the beta's job. At least that's how I see it. when a beta corrects my sentences, I feel like they're sending me the message that I'm not on the same level as them. Whereas beta readers should be your equals, your partners, not act as your editors.

If you don't want the beta to correct your grammar, then discuss that with them beforehand.

When somebody hands me a manuscript and says "go," I'm going to comment on everything I see. Including commas. Including spelling. Because it might be helpful, I think, in my stupid misguided head--I'm thinking, it might be helpful for the author to know that straitjacket is not spelled straightjacket, or that this sort of sentence would sound better with a comma, and besides, I never received any parameters telling me what I should or should not comment on. I'll comment on characters and plot and consistency and anything else I can think of, too, but if I see inappropriate punctuation, and I correct it, it's not because I think I'm better than you. It's because I want to be helpful.

If you don't discuss the sort of critique you want beforehand, then it's really not fair to complain about what kind you get.
 
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