Settlers Gone Wild

dmytryp

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Just couldn't resist since you are so full of it.
anyone who believes that god gave their race a particular plot of land, and that god made their race the chosen, better race is a racist. and anyone who believes that the race currently occupying that land needs to move out, is a racist.
You need realy to check what "chosen people" means to Jews. I even believe it was explained to you in a Purim thread last year. It is vastly different from what you imply.

and the secularists who believe that jews have more of a right to the land than arabs are racists as well.
So, supporting harder line is now equals "having more right to the land"? Because this is what your quote said.



and in fact, if you read the article you would see that a) the vast majority of settlers are religious zealots, and b) even the secularists hold extremist views regarding the arabs.
No, it doesn't say that. It says about half the settlements are religious. It says squat about settlers themselves. And, in fact, I showed in this very thread how this is not true. Half the population of settlers are Jerusalem dwellers, just like in any other neigborhood in that city. Another big chunk live in Ariel, and I can assure you, they are not hardline extremists you try to make them. So, as Rob and I had said, you don't have the evidence to back up your inflamatory and racist statements



that's definitely how you as well as many others here, including ceth & joe, are coming across.

i do not see a single instance of any of you guys condemning this rampage or the pogrom of last month. it's just excuse after excuse here. it's all very unsurprising.
At least you had the honesty not to include me in this statement, because, you know, posts 3 and 18



my generalization was directly backed up within this thread: settlers are overwhelmingly religious zealots and their religious beliefs are based on racism.
It was backed up only by the same anecdotal evidence you try to dismiss -- i.e the rampage in the op. The rest is a racist nonsense.


the generalization that you supported, i.e. that palestinians do not care about their children, has only been supported by anecdotal "evidence" and nonsensical analogies.
First, it was a quote.
Second, your point is crap, because there are literally mountains of that "anecdotal evidence", including polls indicating overwhelming support for suicide bombings, dancing in the streets and giving away candy after successful suicide bombings, teachings of shehada in schools to children, sermons in virtually every mosque and finally the sad fact that palestinian leadership over the years focused on exactly its hate to Israel and not on their own people (which is pretty much what the quote says).

it is a highly offensive, highly invalid claim that shows you, dm, ceth, and joe have very little regard for palestinian lives. which once again isnt very surprising, but let's call it what it is.
I have repeated this so many times I am tired. I am an israeli. I believe that israeli lives and security should be the priority of the israeli gov and policies. Same should hold true for the palestinians (change the israeli to palestinian), but it isn't. And that is exactly what the quote says.

when people say that hamas is a terrorist group, i think everyone keeps quiet because even though it's a complex organization where only one wing is dedicated to militancy, at it's root the majority of people who belong to hamas have radical, extremist views. so we let "generalizations" slide there.
Hamas is a strict religious organisation, not a democracy. The leaders are the ones setting the goals, the means and the timings. Or do you believe the responsibility luys solely with the poor shmock that blows himself up?



You know, Bravo, I am going to say something that might get me banned, but at this point I don't care. You are a racist. Not because you hate Jews, but because you think you are better than the palestinians (the very people you try to defend). You treat them as infantile children not responsible for their actions. This, sir, is racist.
 
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Joe270

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Easy, Dmytry.

Your anger is understandable, but don't let Bravo bait you. That's what he wants.
 
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Bravo

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Just couldn't resist since you are so full of it.

You need realy to check what "chosen people" means to Jews. I even believe it was explained to you in a Purim thread last year. It is vastly different from what you imply.

So, supporting harder line is now equals "having more right to the land"? Because this is what your quote said. You are in such a sanctimonius tantrum that you can't even see straight.


No, it doesn't say that. It says about half the settlements are religious (you can't even get that). It says squat about settlers themselves. And, in fact, I fucking showed in this very thread how this is not true. Half the population of settlers are Jerusalem dwellers, just like in any other neigborhood in that city. Another big chunk live in Ariel, and I can assure you, they are not hardline extremists you try to make them. So, as Rob and I had said, you don't have the evidence to back up your inflamatory and racist statements


At least you had the honesty not to include me in this statement, because, you know, posts 3 and 18


It was backedup only by the same anecdotal evidence you try to dismiss -- i.e the rampage in the op. The rest is a racist nonsense.

First, it was a quote.
Second, your point is crap, because there are literally mountains of that "anecdotal evidence", including polls indicating overwhelming support for suicide bombings, dancing in the streets and giving away candy after successful suicide bombings, teachings of shehada in schools to children, sermons in virtually every mosque and finally the sad fact that palestinian leadership over the years focused on exactly its hate to Israel and not on their own people (which is pretty much what the quote says).


I have fucking repeated this so many times I am tired. I am an israeli. I believe that israeli lives and security should be the priority of the israeli gov and policies. Same should hold true for the palestinians (change the israeli to palestinian), but it isn't. And that is exactly what the quote says.

Do you actually belive the crap that comes out of your mouth? Hamas is a strict religious organisation, not a democracy. The leaders are the ones setting the goals, the means and the timings. Or do you believe the responsibility luys solely with the poor shmock that blows himself up?


You know, Bravo, I am going to say something that might get me banned, but at this point I don't care. You are a racist. Not because you hate Jews, but because you think you are better than the palestinians (the very people you try to defend). You treat them as infantile children not responsible for their actions. This, sir, is racist.

take a look at this list of w. bank settlements and try to tell me again that the majority of settlements are not religious (most are religious, many others are hybrids):

http://www.peacenow.org.il/data/SIP_STORAGE/files/1/2631.xls

we can sit here and argue semantics all day, and maybe you're right: maybe the majority of settlers really do just live there completely oblivious to the arabs and the ideological of the movement itself. the only actual poll of settlers that i saw was from 1995 and that showed that the majority of w. bank settlers were religious, but okay i can buy that things have changed now and that the jeruselum settlers are different. that doesnt change the fact that the basic thrust of the settler movement (especially within the w. bank) has always had a powerful religious element to it. and that religious element, which states that a certain group of people deserve the land more than another group of people is fundamentally racist.

i didnt know that your comment #3 was a response to the settlers' rampage, it was difficult to tell if you were responding to that or if you were going off of plot device's comment. but okay cool, you went much further than ceth or joe did within this thread.

although you pretty much blew that away by stating a racist quote from golda meir and now repeating the tired meme that palestinians teach hate in their textbooks i'm not going to get into either of those things because really all i wanted to show within this thread was that religious wingnuts exist on both sides and it's important to condemn them when they act up.
 
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dmytryp

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take a look at this list of w. bank settlements and try to tell me again that the majority of settlements are not religious (most are religious, many others are hybrids):

http://www.peacenow.org.il/data/SIP_STORAGE/files/1/2631.xls

we can sit here and argue semantics all day, and maybe you're right: maybe the majority of settlers really do just live there completely oblivious to the arabs and the ideological of the movement itself. the only actual poll of settlers that i saw was from 1995 and that showed that the majority of w. bank settlers were religious, but okay i can buy that things have changed now and that the jeruselum settlers are different. that doesnt change the fact that basic thrust of the settler movement (especially within the w. bank) has always had a powerful religious element to it. and that religious element, which states that a certain group of people deserve the land more than another group of people is fundamentally racist.

i didnt know that your comment #3 was a response to the settlers' rampage, it was difficult to tell if you were responding to that or if you were going off of plot device's comment. but okay cool, you went much further than ceth or joe did within this thread.

although you pretty much blew that away by stating a racist quote from golda meir and now repeating the tired meme that palestinians teach hate in their textbooks i'm not going to get into either of those things because really all i wanted to show here were that the religious wingnuts exist on both sides and it's important to condemn them when they act up.
But you don't have a case for your initial statment (I can't even believe you don't see it as inflamatory and racist). Even if the majority of settlers are religious (which actually might be), that doesn't mean they are zealots or that they deserve the land more than Palestinians. The might believe that the land in general belongs to the jews and so they can settle there. It doesn't equal that they believ they can kick arabs out or that they can maltreat them (surely, dome do, but just as surely most don't). Because according to Jewdaism theft is wrong, no matter who you thieve from -- jews or gentiles. And finally, if all religious jews beleived it was ok to kick Arabs out, the religious parties in the Knesset would support transfer. Surprisingly, they don't. The only time (according to Torah) it was ok to kick someone out from Eretz Israel was the in the war with the Cnaanites, and that was supposedly a direct order from G-d.

As for Golda's quote -- it isn't racist. It is intentional hyperbole that reflects the situation on the ground. You can't bring yourself to admit it, that's all.

EDIT: As for teaching children hate, would you like me to produce videos? Or would you like to go through PMW site? Oh an look, just what we talked about -- teaching children to hate, front page, no less. Yes, it is really that tired old meme. You really should do something you sugggested to me once -- open your eyes
 
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Bravo

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dm, i pride myself on only saying things i can back up, i try to be very careful about what i say and how i say it. and i also pride myself on my ability to see when i do not have all the facts and i am wrong. believe it or not, more than anything that's why i post.

i could not find anything to back up my original statement that the vast majority of settlers are religious fanatics, in fact i havent been able to see any in depth study about their religious beliefs. so i will take you at your word and the reading which says that most people are there for economic, not ideological reasons. there was a report way backin the 90s (similar to this study here: http://www.pcpsr.org/survey/cprspolls/97/setpoll2.html#who ) where it showed the majority of settlers are religious, but you're right: i cant say one way or another if that means they believe god gave them the land.

which means my statement regarding settlers was hyperbole and unsupportable. ill take that hit.

As for Golda's quote -- it isn't racist. It is intentional hyperbole that reflects the situation on the ground. You can't bring yourself to admit it, that's all.

i definitely find her statement to be inflammatory and offensive, it's a slap in the face to every palestinian parent i have met and has no business in a political thread. but i really have no desire to get into this, you either see it for what it is or you dont.

gnite
 

robeiae

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anyone who believes that god gave their race a particular plot of land, and that god made their race the chosen, better race is a racist. and anyone who believes that the race currently occupying that land needs to move out, is a racist.
Well you know, "jews" aren't a race, anymore than "muslims" or "christians" are a race. Beyond that, I think you need to reread what you just wrote , because I think you're making a very strong case that the leadership of Hamas and the Arab world are the biggest racists--by far--involved in this issue.
and the secularists who believe that jews have more of a right to the land than arabs are racists as well.
And those who say Arabs/Palestinians have more of a right? They aren't racist? Why? Because you agree with them?
and in fact, if you read the article you would see that a) the vast majority of settlers are religious zealots, and b) even the secularists hold extremist views regarding the arabs.
You made a gross generalization. You look foolish now in trying to defend it.

Look, I don't think Palestinians or Arabs--as a group--hate all Jews and want to kill them, drive them into the sea, etc. Hell, I don't even think the leadership--as a whole--feels that way (though some certainly do). And by the same token, I certainly think there are some Israelis that hate the Palestinians and/or Arabs in general, but as a group THEY DO NOT.

You seem certain, however, that you can define a very large group with regard to what they want/believe. And you do so by painting them--as a group--as pretty much the scum of the earth. That sucks. And it's indefensible.
that's definitely how you as well as many others here, including ceth & joe, are coming across.
Oh, BS. I haven't said word one in defense of violent actions by settlers. I'm just not willing to let you get away with painting half a million people with labels derived from your own narrow perception of reality.

i do not see a single instance of any of you guys condemning this rampage or the pogrom of last month. it's just excuse after excuse here. it's all very unsurprising.
And again, I've made no excuses for any actions. None.


my generalization was directly backed up within this thread: settlers are overwhelmingly religious zealots and their religious beliefs are based on racism.
Heh. You said there were 435,000 racist religious zealots. That's all of them buddy, not an "overwhelming number." You're slowly backing the generalization down, because you know it was too much, don't you?

the generalization that you supported, i.e. that palestinians do not care about their children, has only been supported by anecdotal "evidence" and nonsensical analogies.
Ah, but as I said it's a case of being more reflective of reality than you will admit. The fact is that suicide bombers ARE glorified by some. The fact is that their actions are celebrated by more than just a few.

Do you really believe these actions (suicide bombings and the like) are effective? As a strategy, will they lead to peace?

it is a highly offensive, highly invalid claim that shows you, dm, ceth, and joe have very little regard for palestinian lives. which once again isnt very surprising, but let's call it what it is.
Call it what it is? Again, you label half a million people racists as a matter of course. How many of those people have you actually spoken to?

As to my regard for Palestinian lives, I fear it is much higher than the regard Palestinian and Arab leaders have for the same.

when people say that hamas is a terrorist group, i think everyone keeps quiet because even though it's a complex organization where only one wing is dedicated to militancy, at it's root the majority of people who belong to hamas have radical, extremist views. so we let "generalizations" slide there.
Hamas sponsors terrorism. Hamas members engage in terrorism with its leadership's approval. Hamas is a terrorist organization.

but suddenly, here you are, defending a group where 70% of it's members believe that god gave them their land, and a good chunk of the rest of the 30% holds extremist views about arabs.

talk about red herring.
The red herring is your attempt to justify your broad-brushing of a large group by falsely claiming I am "defending" the actions of some in that group.



without going overboard?

saying palestinians do not love their children isnt going overboard?

oh that's right, you thought that quote was "reflective of reality".
You opened the door. But you're not going overboard because the targets of your inflammatory claims are...what?

still no condemnation, and no acknowledgment that the VAST majority of the settlers are religious fanatics, huh?

sometimes your attempts to obfuscate the issues with rhetorical gymnastics is fun, but at times like this it comes across as petty and obnoxious.
You've got an emotional stake in this. That's clear. And you allow that emotion to cloud your views. That's also clear. But again, my principle point remains: you can't accuse others of inflammatory rhetoric and propaganda when you are doing the same--and in fact did it first.
eta:

actually i take that back rob, it was pretty surprising to see someone who i consider to be quite intelligent to take the position that you did here.

i might not agree with most of your politics, but usually you tend to be quite careful about what you say and how approach the issues. i definitely did not expect to see you embrace meir's statements and then go on and try to defend (or the very least spin) the settler movement.

changing things up every once in a while does keep the spice in relationships though. so, thank you
Well once again, I didn't defend anything about the settler movement. And I didn't embrace Meir's statement. I objected to your generalizations of the former and argued that there is, indeed, some truth in the latter.
 
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Joe270

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i pride myself on only saying things i can back up, i try to be very careful about what i say and how i say it.

In light of Rob's post, this statement is stripped bare.
 

Bravo

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Well you know, "jews" aren't a race, anymore than "muslims" or "christians" are a race.]

being jewish is considered an ethnic identity, one that according to israel, is passed on maternally. that's why you have so many "secular" jews, people who identify themselves as jewish but do not believe in the jewish religion.


Beyond that, I think you need to reread what you just wrote , because I think you're making a very strong case that the leadership of Hamas and the Arab world are the biggest racists--by far--involved in this issue.

"biggest" is a loaded term, they're racist too. i never denied that.

And those who say Arabs/Palestinians have more of a right? They aren't racist? Why? Because you agree with them?
You made a gross generalization. You look foolish now in trying to defend it.

those who say arabs have more of a right are saying that arabs as in jew, christian, and muslim arabs have the right to the land, and that it cant be divided for jews only.

anyone who thinks that jews should be excluded in the state are racist.
Look, I don't think Palestinians or Arabs--as a group--hate all Jews and want to kill them, drive them into the sea, etc. Hell, I don't even think the leadership--as a whole--feels that way (though some certainly do). And by the same token, I certainly think there are some Israelis that hate the Palestinians and/or Arabs in general, but as a group THEY DO NOT.

i never said israelis as a group hate the palestinians i was specifically talking about those within the settler movement.

throughout this thread, and the quote that people found inflammatory, i was only talking about jewish settlers.

You seem certain, however, that you can define a very large group with regard to what they want/believe. And you do so by painting them--as a group--as pretty much the scum of the earth. That sucks. And it's indefensible

i still stand by that the thrust of the w. bank settler movement is religious and racist by nature and it's goal is to recreate the biblical israel on arab land.

i cant comment on the jeruselum settlers and those in the golan heights, i can accept that the latter is doing it for israel's security and/or because they like the ski slopes up there, but w. bank settlers do overwhelmingly belong to religious compounds, belong to right wing parties, and the people who represent them advocate the creation of a greater israel regardless of palestinians who live there. whether or not the majority of members harbor these beliefs, i cant say one way or another. but their representatives definitely do, and the founding members used frightening religious rhetoric to justify their claim to the land.

the w. bank settler movement was borne out of this religious element and continues to draw significant power from it.
 
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dmytryp

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A couple of points.
i still stand by that the thrust of the w. bank settler movement is religious and racist by nature and it's goal is to recreate the biblical israel on arab land.
a. Being religious (and even believing in greater Israel) =/= wanting to remove arabs from the land (as I already showed you). Furthemore, there are more than one streams among "religious". Many of them certainly can't be called "zealots" unless you are willing to extend this description to every person who believes in G-d. Heck, there is a stream among religious jews whih is anti-zionist -- meaning they object to the state of Israel, and some of them actually live in the w. bank.
b. Being right wing , or supporting right wing parties, or standing for harder stances towards palestinians =/= racism. For some it certainly does, but for most, it means putting security first. As simple as that.

In short, your generalization, to use your own words, is inflamatory offensive and a bunch of other words you'd like to use.

By the way, you counted children among your definition of "racist religious zealots". And since many of the settlers as you say, are religious (meaning 7, 8 and even ten children per family) that means more than a few. I don't have the exact numbers, but I'd say about 30%.

i cant comment on the jeruselum settlers and those in the golan heights,
Just a note that non-jews on the Golans are israeli citizens and have full rights (which is what you advocated much of the time, no?). East Jerusalem arabs have israeli ID's, too. They are somewhat surrogate (which I think is wrong), because they enjoy all the civil services etc that the state provides, but don't vote in israeli elections (I am not clear about the reasoning here). In fact, many of them didn't vote in PA elections because they feared losing the israeli ID (an unfounded fear, by the way)

but w. bank settlers do overwhelmingly belong to
religious compounds, belong to right wing parties, and the people who represent them advocate the creation of a greater israel regardless of palestinians who live there. whether or not the majority of members harbor these beliefs, i cant say one way or another. but their representatives definitely do, and the founding members used frightening religious rhetoric to justify their claim to the land.

the w. bank settler movement was borne out of this religious element and continues to draw significant power from it.
You know who Jabotinsky was, right? You know what his "iron wall" said, right? You also know that he advocated full citizen rights for arabs after the inevitable violent conflict is resolved, right? Was he a "religious racist zealot"?

As an aside -- Jabotinsky in his "iron wall" said that after the Jews defeat the arabs in the inevitable violent clash, the acceptance of the jewish presence will come. Interestingly, he was right.
 

Captshady

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Well, the one thing this thread certainly showed is that nobody on tis board is getting silenced or cencored in his criticism of Israel:D

Yep! Say the same thing about Islam, and see what happens.
 

dmytryp

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Well, since we talked about Jewish settler population, this article is relevant. It also shows, that Bravo had incorrect data:

The number of Jews in the West Bank stood at 270,000 at the end of 2007.
The data, compiled by a team of researchers headed by Prof. Dan Soen and Dr. Vered Neman-Haviv, indicated that the Jewish population in the West Bank is younger and therefore has a higher fertility rate than the national average. The settler public's birthrate stands at 35 births per 1,000 population compared to 20 births per 1,000 in the general population.

...snip

The rate of the ultra-Orthodox population in the region is significantly higher than the national average: 30.7% of West Bank residents are haredim, compared to only 7.5% in all of Israel.
 

Don

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I've been very disappointed in this thread and think it should be renamed.

Not once in all these posts has anyone ripped off their shirt, danced on the table, or even kissed another settler. No hot tubs, no shower scenes... pitiful. It's my understanding that Mantra Films will be filing suit for copyright infringement.

What? Nobody else ever sees late-night infomercials?
 

dmytryp

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so in your view, how did all these settlements get made, dm?
Some of them were bought by law. Some were established in places where jewish settlements had been before , like Gush Etzion (or Hebron for that matter). Some were founded in places left by arabs during war. Some were established on an empty land. Some certainly involved driving Arabs out. Not as many as you believe.