Purgatory's Pit of Doom

Ok, I was the girl who, when Sassoon jeans were really huge (back in 1978-79?) never got a pair.

This inept analogy is regarding Goodreads. Had no idea what it was about til today. I still don't. (I know-and I call myself a writer). So what is it about?

Ok Teri -- what about H0ck1ng's success? She wouldn't have had it had she not self-promoted like she did. She was a beast about it and it paid off.

And I have to say that DWS is a crazy writing machine! Seriously, I'd have to be smoking crack to keep up with him so...yeah.

{{lkp}} Not even gonna ask why ur in contact with him unless it's to ask him when he's gonna pick up the rest of his stuff!

Cat, don't worry about being out of the loop. My publisher had never heard of Publishers Marketplace until I mentioned it to him today.

Catwoman said:

Ok Teri -- what about H0ck1ng's success? She wouldn't have had it had she not self-promoted like she did. She was a beast about it and it paid off.

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There's no way to know for sure, is there?

Her numbers took off fairly quickly, too rapidly for me to think it was because of self-promo.

If you want to attribute her success to something other than the fact that she wrote stories people liked and wanted to read, it might be (1) how quickly she wrote and uploaded new stuff. She makes DWS look like a slow writer. I think she wrote books in 2 weeks OR (2) timing. She was in at the start of the self-pubbing thing, when you could put a book up for .99 and that alone could get you sales.

The landscape has changed so much that trying to duplicate her success would be a waste of time anyway. Like buying stocks after the price is high. You have to figure out how to get in low and ride an upswing. What worked for her can't possibly work again. Besides, a bazillion people are already trying to do just what she did. Sheep never stand out from the herd.

ETA: I was going to comment on the kind of promo she did, but I hesitate to get into the whole exchanging favors promo, which I don't think she did.

Red, ?!?!?!

Readied six new queries total for three books. Ought to be writing more stuff instead, I know.

One more thing about promoting your book in the hopes for success.

It's important to think about what kind of success you want, and the kind of book you've written.

A lot of the awards are out there to give success to the sorts of books not likely to fly off the shelves in large numbers. The more literary stuff, Newberry winners which librarians want teachers to assign and children to read, yadda yadda.

If you plan to measure success by sales numbers, you better to be writing the sorts of books likely to sell a lot of copies at least up front. Some book take longer to find their audiences.

This is America* so we tend to get caught up in $=good.

But this isn't always true, right?

*added, for most of us. The publishing industry we're all trying to break into is certainly American.

I have rote 650 wurdz today. Time for sleeps.

RedScylla said:

Cat, don't worry about being out of the loop. My publisher had never heard of Publishers Marketplace until I mentioned it to him today.

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kellion92 said:

Red, ?!?!?!

Readied six new queries total for three books. Ought to be writing more stuff instead, I know.

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Go, Kellion!

RedScylla said:

I have rote 650 wurdz today. Time for sleeps.

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Yay for wurdz!

Tried to rep, but....? What's going on?? Not working.

Teri, I have to respectfully disagree. I make my living in marketing. We have a great product, but since I've been on board, our new client count is up 37%. In this economy, unheard of. And, we've been around for 40 years. So to think something will catch on on its own if it's a good product, book, or whatever, is unwise, methinks. Sure, there's always going to be word of mouth, but marketing is almost always going to help, as long as you market smart.

Again, I'm not fond of blanket statements. It's not all or nothing. But if you do have a great book and it gets an initial push it will gain its own momentum.

Red!? Muted yay for the writing word count.

Go, Kellion!

Cricket18 said:

SNIP ...there's always going to be word of mouth, but marketing is almost always going to help, as long as you market smart.

Again, I'm not fond of blanket statements. It's not all or nothing. But if you do have a great book and it gets an initial push it will gain its own momentum.

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This is true. My issue with the marketing question as related to books is the way it is presented as a rigid formula. One of the critical elements of success, we writers are told, is engaging in social media. I'm not sure this would come under the heading of "marketing smart." I believe in the power of more traditional approaches, but somehow publishers and authors got it in their heads that social media could replace everything else. "Add 50 new FB followers per day or you fail!" "You must tweet in your sleep or no one will buy your work!"

Go Kellion! Go Red!

Marketing... I don't know crap so I've been keeping my mouth shut. But I do think it's wise to put some energy into getting your book's name out there. I tend to check stuff out via word of mouth. I've ended up reading a lot of books that I saw people talking about it via twitter, forums, etc. If people hadn't been talking, I wouldn't have known they existed.

I think it has a place, Ink. It should complement other efforts. I don't think it should replace more traditional forms of marketing or become a full-time job for an author to keep up with it. The pressure I've seen on debut authors at large or midsize publishing houses requires a huge time commitment. I'm just not sure you get a huge return on that investment when you could be writing instead.

But, what the hell do I know? I live under our couch here, after all.

Good points, Cricket. The key with marketing, as always, is to know what's making a difference and what isn't. I don't know yet, but I need to try, if just for the psychological reasons Teri described. But it's more than psychological. A writer on another board said she didn't think it would be worth doing a lot social media because with it, she might sell another 500 copies. Well, if you're self-published or small-press published, that's a lot! That might be all you sell, or the difference that lets you sell out a print run. Or it might be the first 500 books that then doubles every month -- the early readers who get the ball rolling.

And Teri, you are testing marketing methods too -- if it "let alone" doesn't work, you can change your strategy. It's notable that you are trying the approach with your low-stakes books -- ones you'd trunked years ago, with pen names you won't tell anyone... If one of those books was your "baby" (you're prolific, but we all have books we love more than others!), you'd try a different approach -- like say, approaching traditional houses

ETA: Oops, Ink and Octavia chimed in while I was slowly typing! And I agree.

alias octavia said:

I believe in the power of more traditional approaches, but somehow publishers and authors got it in their heads that social media could replace everything else. "Add 50 new FB followers per day or you fail!" "You must tweet in your sleep or no one will buy your work!"

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Yes, at first it looked like the easy way out, and the realization is sinking in that there's just too much noise out there to rely solely on social media. It varies by type of book too. Clearly, social media helps in YA sales and romance. Other types, it isn't so clear.

ink wench said:

Go Kellion! Go Red!

Marketing... I don't know crap so I've been keeping my mouth shut. But I do think it's wise to put some energy into getting your book's name out there. I tend to check stuff out via word of mouth. I've ended up reading a lot of books that I saw people talking about it via twitter, forums, etc. If people hadn't been talking, I wouldn't have known they existed.

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I agree you need to do something; It's just so hard to figure out the right things to do.

alias octavia said:

I think it has a place, Ink. It should complement other efforts. I don't think it should replace more traditional forms of marketing or become a full-time job for an author to keep up with it. The pressure I've seen on debut authors at large or midsize publishing houses requires a huge time commitment. I'm just not sure you get a huge return on that investment when you could be writing instead.

But, what the hell do I know? I live under our couch here, after all.

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A lot of smart people are under the couch.

For authors hitting the social media trend when it was still relatively new, it was like getting a job and then suddenly being told you are actually expected to do an extra job too, which is in a totally unrelated field, but which of course you won't be paid for.

Oh, did you all catch the Hyper1on CEO yesterday saying how publishing was broken? One of her comments was that now authors must be "media-genic." *cry*

Also said many other things we agree with, that the huge advances are mistakes.

http://www.digitalbookworld.com/201...her-book-publishing-business-model-is-broken/

Chortle-worthy moment: She says that unlike the Big Six, she's in a "scrappy, nimble, mid-sized" company -- oh, yes, that's D1sney.

Kellion, that's a very interesting interview. I don't like the media-genic thing, but I do like her frank talk about advances. Scrappy and nimble... I wonder if she's just referring to their book division compared to the Big Six. 'Cause yeah, nothing else would make sense.

As for marketing, I can only hope that one day I have to worry about finding that best-fit line from a practical standpoint. But I agree that finding it is probably the key.

Agent says she plans to get back to me about my UF/PR by the end of the month. Prepare the puke bucket.

kellion92 said:

Oh, did you all catch the Hyper1on CEO yesterday saying how publishing was broken? One of her comments was that now authors must be "media-genic." *cry*

Also said many other things we agree with, that the huge advances are mistakes.

http://www.digitalbookworld.com/201...her-book-publishing-business-model-is-broken/

Chortle-worthy moment: She says that unlike the Big Six, she's in a "scrappy, nimble, mid-sized" company -- oh, yes, that's D1sney.

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Oh, good catch, Amarie. And the author in the second GR seems to be young, pretty, charming in person, with an interesting "path to publication" story. Media-genic and media savvy aren't the same thing.

kellion92 said:

Readied six new queries total for three books. Ought to be writing more stuff instead, I know.

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It's a balancing act. That's why I was clinging to my paltry 650 words like a safety blanky.

Cricket18 said:

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That was my exact reaction when I asked him if he wanted to submit my deal to PM and he said, "I'm not familiar with that." Like, DUDE! I mean, I know he's just a lone guy, publishing stuff he loves, but really?

Cricket18 said:

Again, I'm not fond of blanket statements. It's not all or nothing. But if you do have a great book and it gets an initial push it will gain its own momentum.

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There's a HUGE difference between promoting one's book in a rational way and becoming, well, this:

alias octavia said:

"Add 50 new FB followers per day or you fail!" "You must tweet in your sleep or no one will buy your work!"

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(Which made me laff.) Making sure people can hear about your book is important. You can best do that by interacting with readers in various formats. Since most writers are readers, there's a crossover opportunity. As for ramming your book down people's throats, that's not promotion. That's madness.

Amarie said:

A lot of smart people are under the couch.

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*preens*

kellion92 said:

Oh, did you all catch the Hyper1on CEO yesterday saying how publishing was broken? One of her comments was that now authors must be "media-genic." *cry*

Also said many other things we agree with, that the huge advances are mistakes.

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Media-genic? Shoot me now.

(Also, why the fuck did I get on the scale this morning. I knew it wouldn't be good news, but I wasn't prepared for how bad the news was. News flash: there's a reason my clothes feel so weird lately.)

Mornin', Pit

{{{Lkp}}}

May the Force be with you, Kell & thanks for the link

The Hyperion Prez was talking about megabooks, publishing and creating megabooks, (books about Steve Jobs, books which can sell a bazillon copies) which takes us back to the kinds of books we're writing and how we define success. I never thought, from the beginning, that RW would sell a bazillion copies and compete with HP. Um. Neither will a Civil Rights book about 1951 Virginia. Does that make them bad? I hope not. No amount of twittering will turn nonmegabook into a megabook.

What about your average book?

One assumption people make is that interests of the publisher, agent, and author are all lined up.

In the interest of keeping posts from becoming books I gotta use simplistic examples. #1: Who wins in the game of "You buy my book and I'll buy yours?" The publisher. Each writer got a sale, but each writer spent more than her royalties buying a book she may not have wanted.

#2: A agent becomes an assisted-self publisher, and takes 15%. She has lots of authors. Let's say, to start with, she assists with the self publishig of 7 books from 5 authors. The agent tells each author to develop a marketing plan and do social media. (I know of at least one telling her authors this)

Who benefits? The slush pile is endless so the agent will always be able to put up more and more books taking 15% of each book. Put up enough books and you can make a lot of money even if no single writer makes much money. If each of the writers are playing "I'll by your book if you buy mine" becuase she's obsessed with Amazon rankings, who wins? If writers are doing social media instead of producing more books, the publisher wins because the publisher will always have more books to publish.

Kellion is absolutely right. Now in the case of assisted self-publishing I'd venture to guess most of the books are the authors first book, her baby, hence lots of time on social media.

Of course marketing sells books. The question is whether the author's career would be better spent putting the effort into writing another book.

I don't know the answer. But as of now, I sense that A LOT of what passes for marketing is not worth the author's time.

(Thanks for the hugs guys. Catwoman, I called him because I realized there was something missing in the way the relationship ended because we never spoke after he got back from Portugal. It was the part where I yelled at him. I feel much better now, and able to let it all go and put his email address in my spam flter)

I had dinner with an agent yesterday --- personally, not professionally. She mostly represents NF but also sells some LF. She was asked how many books makes a success. She said about 10,000 hardcover books, followed by 10,000 paperback. She says she has a literary author who is published by a publisher who thinks she'll win the Pulitzer one day and is cultivating her. Her last book sold 3,500 hardcover, and when the agent asked the publisher why no PB, they said they don't do PB for under 5,000 hardcover sales. She told them if they are going to keep supporting this author they need to publish PB no matter what. I thought these were interesting numbers from someone in the business. So selling an extra 500 books seems like a lot to me, and worth some effort.

Double posting to say that I share Teriann's skepticism about most author-driven promotion. I have never ever bought a book because I possessed a bookmark.

((Lkp))

Morning Pitizens...or is it afternoon? Full week back at the day job. Need the weekend to recoup.

*Snatches puke buck from under couch and holds at the ready for Ink*

I have no sense of what works vs. what doesn't work for marketing, but if I wise person will tell me, I'm all ears. It seems we know more of what doesn't work than what does. *sigh*

lkp said:

I feel much better now, and able to let it all go and put his email address in my spam filter.

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I like that. It seems like a good illustration of moving on.

And I've never thought of bookmarks as true "promotion." They're more like fangirl/boy squee-items. Stuff people who already like the book acquire. Real, useful promotion seems to me to be about connecting with people who read. Okay, like back in the day, a friend who had a book come out visited on my blog, and talked about the book (not this hooyah bullshit about writing or whatever, but about THE BOOK.)

My primary blog readership is not made up of writers. It is made up of normal people, many of whom like to read. About 30 of them bought my friend's book. That's meaningful promotion, if we imagine that readership is like reproduction in cats. If you can produce 30 kittens, they'll grow up to produce more kittens. Hook one reader, they will spread the word.

lkp said:

She was asked how many books makes a success. She said about 10,000 hardcover books, followed by 10,000 paperback. She says she has a literary author who is published by a publisher who thinks she'll win the Pulitzer one day and is cultivating her. Her last book sold 3,500 hardcover, and when the agent asked the publisher why no PB, they said they don't do PB for under 5,000 hardcover sales. She told them if they are going to keep supporting this author they need to publish PB no matter what. I thought these were interesting numbers from someone in the business. So selling an extra 500 books seems like a lot to me, and worth some effort.

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From my own experiences, these numbers make sense. RW sold enough hardcover sales to justify PB rights being sold. (My publisher didn't do paperback.) 2 of my 3 recent agents promised to try to sell the PB rights. (Last one kept saying,"I promise to get to it soon." He said this for 18 months.)

By the time I fired the last one in April things had changed tremendously so I self pubbed RW as a paper back. (See, I'm experimenting right and left.)

Hubby keeps saying, "We should do something to market RW paperback, let some of those Jewish magazines who endorsed the book know about it." But it's time consuming, so we're doing nothing. Is it flying off the shelves? No. But I am getting sales. Because we invested a total of $60* in self pubbing it (purchase of ISBN #s) we're making profit already. Big profits? No. But no effort, either. We'll see if TS bumps the sales. The conventional wisdom is new books bump backlist.

Does 500 sales makes a difference in hardcover? For me it wouldn't have. My print run would have just sold out sooner. Also handselling 500 hardcover copies requires an enormous effort. Hardcovers are not impulse purchases. I think a successful bookstore event sells 20 - 50 copies (not talking megabooks here but ordinary books.) Not all are so successful, particularly for new authors.


ETA: Red, I think that is meaningful promotion. The hope is that those readers will tell other readers.

*Added: This isn't actually true. The publisher and artist gave me permission to use the cover art again without charge. But I sent the artist a courtesy check.