Feelings as evidence of reality

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Ruv Draba

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I'm trying to understand that. Are you saying that if feelings come before thoughts, they're generally reliable, but if they follow thoughts, they're generally not? And is anything that feels like a win, a win?

For me, it's almost the opposite. If my feelings precede my thoughts it's generally because of some pre-existing state (like fatigue or some mood), which makes both feelings and thoughts unreliable. And the more something feels like a win, the less I can trust it.
 
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Gehanna

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In this thread, does use of the word feelings refer to emotion or sensation?

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Ruv Draba

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Emotions. I mean a subjective response of mood or disposition to a state of being or event. My understanding is that some people find them useful in making sense of the external world; I'm trying to understand how and when people do that and how they know when it's working and when it's not.

My perspective is that emotions tell me a lot about me, but I don't find them helpful in making sense of my external world. I generally rely on other things instead.
 
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Maxx

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I'm trying to understand that. Are you saying that if feelings come before thoughts, they're generally reliable, but if they follow thoughts, they're generally not? And is anything that feels like a win, a win?

For me, it's almost the opposite. If my feelings precede my thoughts it's generally because of some pre-existing state (like fatigue or some mood), which makes both feelings and thoughts unreliable. And the more something feels like a win, the less I can trust it.

I guess there's two things, one in many situations a good reading of your internal state is the most important thing, and in those situations feelings are in a sense more reliable in terms of predicting the outcome of particular actions in the immediate situation.
Two, which wins are really wins? I knew really good diver, rock climber, runner, surfer dude pretty well years ago. He insisted that if you were really in the groove nothng could go wrong, ie, if you were in tune with your feelings you would always win (or I would add, at least not get killed). I was doubtful about that then and I'm still doubtful since first that's the attitude that will get you killed on certain mountains, but I think (and second -- you're likely to be fooling yourself) that's because a lot of that "in tune" idea is the opposite of really experiencing your feelings. As you suggest, to get a reliable reading off your feelings you need to be out of tune with them and not responsible for them.
So its not a matter of priority, but of context. Probably the less immediate the required response, the better it is to be out of tune with your feelings (hence the effectiveness of your methods).
 

Ruv Draba

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I guess there's two things, one in many situations a good reading of your internal state is the most important thing
Yes. A good example is nitrogen narcosis when scuba-diving. It doesn't so much creep up on you as afflict you all at once. Being aware of your emotions is useful because it may affect your mood before you notice any physical symptoms.
to get a reliable reading off your feelings you need to be out of tune with them and not responsible for them.
I don't understand the "in tune" terminology. One is either aware of one's emotions or not; allows emotion to colour perception or not; is either guided by emotions or not; expresses emotions or not. I view those as independent things.

I favour being aware of emotion and at times I think it's good to let emotion colour perception (in musical performances, say, but not in signing contracts). I can't think of a time though when I'd prefer emotion to guide my decisions rather than clarity of perception -- but that's because I see my emotions as a potted summary of my internal state. But if I thought my feelings offered some form of insight into the world around me, I might feel differently. As for expressing emotions there are times when that's helpful (when people want to understand us), and times when it's not (when they clearly don't care).
 
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Pat~

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My perspective is that emotions tell me a lot about me, but I don't find them helpful in making sense of my external world. I generally rely on other things instead.

I think this could vary from individual to individual (their feelings accurately reflecting the reality of the world around them) depending on their emotional make up, but feelings aren't fool-proof barometers of truth. I'd agree with you that, for example, my feelings might often say more about me and where I am presently than inform anyone 'factually' about something. But that's not to diss feelings; intuition is a powerful thing, and can 'inform' a person in inexplicable ways (at least it has on occasion in my experience). It's just that feelings aren't 100% foolproof regarding the way things are. I believe it's also true that I am more responsible for my 'feelings' and my emotional response to things than other people are for my emotional responses.
 

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not to diss feelings; intuition is a powerful thing, and can 'inform' a person in inexplicable ways
Thanks for contributing, Pat~.

I have strong intuitions all the time, but they're not emotional and indeed I find that emotion gets in the way. My intuitions are about systems -- how they work, what bits are broken, what bits will work well together. People often bring me problems they can't solve, and I'll be able to help solve them though I've never done so before. There's no magic in it though. I know how my intuitions arrive because I know what models and frames I'm using to acquire them -- some are frames I've been taught, some are frames I've built as a sort of hobby. But the more emotion there is in the circumstance (e.g. distressed people, promises of reward, or threats of punishment), the more it distracts from finding the right frame to apply. So I might have a strong intuition about how to fix or build something, but may have no clear idea why someone wants it fixed or built unless I think to ask.

I know that people have emotional intuitions too, but I don't much experience such things, generally don't trust them (because for me, emotion is disorderly clutter), and don't really understand how they work. I suppose I'm trying to build a frame for that too. :)
 

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Yes. A good example is nitrogen narcosis when scuba-diving. It doesn't so much creep up on you as afflict you all at once. Being aware of your emotions is useful because it may affect your mood before you notice any physical symptoms.
I don't understand the "in tune" terminology. One is either aware of one's emotions or not; allows emotion to colour perception or not; is either guided by emotions or not; expresses emotions or not. I view those as independent things.

I favour being aware of emotion and at times I think it's good to let emotion colour perception (in musical performances, say, but not in signing contracts). I can't think of a time though when I'd prefer emotion to guide my decisions rather than clarity of perception -- but that's because I see my emotions as a potted summary of my internal state. But if I thought my feelings offered some form of insight into the world around me, I might feel differently. As for expressing emotions there are times when that's helpful (when people want to understand us), and times when it's not (when they clearly don't care).

There's a phenomenon in sports (or in any other strenuous physical activity with a goal) where, once you're reasonably good in the basics, more and more of the game is a matter of modulating your focus. If you are too focused on pushing yourself in a race (for example) you're not going to do as well as somebody who just takes a pace and goes with the flow (oops, another incomprehensible term). It's a little hard to describe, but basically it means you can stand back and assess things without getting emotionally overwhelmed, but at the same time use your emotional state to push yourself if you have to. Some types (like surfers, runners, climbers, divers, women in labor) get pretty mystical about it. For others, they know it is there, but its asking for trouble to talk about it too much (focusing on focus would be the end of any useful focus).
 

Ruv Draba

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It's a little hard to describe, but basically it means you can stand back and assess things without getting emotionally overwhelmed, but at the same time use your emotional state to push yourself if you have to.
Yes, emotion can influence our metabolism so we can use it to moderate our physical activities. Archers for instance, have no use for adrenaline -- it messes with their aim, so they try and "breathe it out" before they take a shot. On the other hand, sprinters have great use for adrenaline and bounce around before a race, trying to build it up.

But it's not mystical or confined to elite athletes. Most people are experts at walking, for example. When we're late for a bus, anxiety can get us walking faster without a conscious decision to do so. But if we're sick or injured, whether to shuffle, walk or run for the bus can become a conscious decision.

Emotion can be used to communicate and even change other peoples' metabolisms. There's a vast difference between whispering "Answer the door", and yelling it, say. We can also train ourselves against responding to other folks' emotions -- emergency workers do this, for example. We can also induce emotion in others nonverblly -- scent, ritual and music are good examples of this.

Which leads me to ask: how many of our emotions have their origins in our own reflections? How many are created by craft and wile by others to try and change our behaviour? How many do we choose, and how many do we acquire through training and inheritance? (I'm a fairly detached person, but I'd feel a jolt of alarm if I saw a toddler unattended on a busy highway, say. I usually decide consciously whether to walk, stride or run for a bus, but I'd probably be running toward the child before I knew I was. :))
 
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Maxx

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Which leads me to ask: how many of our emotions have their origins in our own reflections? How many are created by craft and wile by others to try and change our behaviour? How many do we choose, and how many do we acquire through training and inheritance?

As writers, using craft and guile to trigger emotions in others is so much part of our basic task that perhaps we aren't very good at noticing the over-all flow of emotions in the social world. We are always already too busy analyzing specific emotive elements, maybe.
 

Ruv Draba

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As a reader I hate authors manipulating my emotions. I'm fine if they express how a character feels, but when they start constructing scenes just for their impacts on me it's melodrama and makes me twitch.

I also hate it when people do it in real life. Yesterday a student wrote me a long, floral note to tell me he was "embarrassed and confused" to have missed an assignment deadline when in fact he had chosen not to come to class in over a month. One cannot be "embarrassed and confused" at a situation created by deliberate, systematic neglect -- ashamed and anxious perhaps, smug and cynical maybe but not embarrassed and confused. Yet he went to great trouble to project just that, in the hope that he could earn credit for an assignment he'd never attempted. Obviously his attempt failed, but he must believe it sometimes works or he wouldn't have tried it.

Why does it work to project false emotions around a situation? People who push into queues with apologies; who betray us with false sympathy; or flatter us into doing their bidding. Are we really so easily manipulated by emotional posturing and synthetic mood?
 
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Gehanna

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Why does it work to project false emotions around a situation? People who push into queues with apologies; who betray us with false sympathy; or flatter us into doing their bidding. Are we really so easily manipulated by emotional posturing and synthetic mood?

I detest that sort of behavior.

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Apsu

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How is it for you? How much weight do you give to your feelings as a measure of the world around you? How accurate are they, and how do you know? When you have a persistent feeling, what do you do? When a feeling is proven inaccurate, what do you do?


Fascinating thread. I skimmed through most of it, though the disagreement with your friend there seemed so telling of a lot of things. I have arguments with my wife like that. I hope you two have managed to make up.

Trying to be quick and succinct. I always fail. I'm a slow thinker.

Cause and effect operate before us in their normal order.
We witness or act, and then we reflect back and back again within ourselves. That reflecting causes emotion the way I think of it.

I'm filled with emotion, very strong and passionate emotion. But it leads me astray. I think the people who use emotion to define their world are largely either people who live within a normalcy range that the majority of people around them can easily relate to --or-- live beyond that normalcy range and are so envious of it that they put extraordinary stock in their emotions in a compensating manner to achieve acceptance.

My emotion is beyond that normalcy range, and I've learned to accept myself. I live life with those passions bubbling away, but I watch reality separately. I try to speak about reality. I try to interact with reality. I'm not real social. When I'm with those people that gather and babble away and lean in close to each other to speak and really get each other, I'm usually pretty quiet. I hear the reality of their words; they comfort each other, reaffirm each other; they hear the intonations, and they get each other.

If I play it right, I look smart. But it's easy to end up looking naive and foolish, because it's like an invisible deformity that is only noticed when we gather and compare.

By the way, I think what I'm saying is, I think it's a fantasy, those emotions. We create them, and we give them importance through checking them against other people's ability to create them. We make up what's the proper emotional response. I know it's a chemical brain thing, but it alters reality and puts each of us in our own little world.

That's where my wife and I fight. She makes connections between circumstances that are entirely unrelated, because she felt the same in both of them. I make connections between circumstances because they have common elements. We can't talk like that. I ask her how on earth they're connected, and she talks in circles for hours until she finally asks me how my circumstances are connected. When I can immediately list common characteristics, she finally realizes she can't. But she doesn't get what I'm talking about. No...she goes off on another circle of unrelated events. And I realize everything I say gets filtered and categorized based on non-existing elements, or elements that only exist in her and that anyone within her normalcy range would understand. But she can't hear me. And I'm not in her normalcy range. So I end up apologizing a lot. It's my responsibility to apologize. She can't hear me. I can hear her, and know she's talking from a different place. I can accept that. She can never see that anything outside of her emotional interpretation can be true. If she hears ideas from beyond her normalcy range, she assumes they're fabrications meant to manipulate. I can see her. I can see her speaking honestly from a different place. So it's my responsibility to apologize.

Succinct, huh?
 
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Ruv Draba

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I hope you two have managed to make up.
Di and I are cool.

Cause and effect operate before us in their normal order.
I think cause and effect are how creatures with one tongue try and make sense of things. We create cause and effect as a linear story from all the complexity that's really going on: the cold air made moisture condense into clouds and fall as rain. That's not false but it is deceptive -- other things help make rain too, like atmospheric pressure and particles of dust in the air.

Because cause and effect are stories, we may tell them after we react, and often our emotions can react to the situation first. In this way our emotions can help us choose the stories we tell.

My emotions often react quite slowly. It can be minutes, hours or even days before I'll react to an event emotionally. That can be very disadvantageous -- because I don't always react, people can misjudge their impacts on me. On the other hand, it can give me a lot of time to decide what I think before I discover what I feel.

I think the people who use emotion to define their world are largely either people who live within a normalcy range that the majority of people around them can easily relate to
I'm not sure what that means, Apsu. Does it mean that people whose emotions are similar to others use emotion socially to help sense their world? We see this in gazelles, say -- when one gazelle gets alarmed the others react immediately, before they even know what the danger is. We may make "herdbeast" jokes about shared emotion, but it can be a very effective survival strategy.

I think it's a fantasy, those emotions.
Fantasy suggests whimsy -- and perhaps some emotions are whimsical. Emotions seem to be determined socially, at least in part. I suspect that sometimes people decide whether to be delighted, angry, afraid, offended according to social context, then enact that emotion as if it were spontaneous. I've often wondered if people know the difference between feelings they choose, and ones they experience spontaneously. Because my emotions seem to arrive late I find that I have very little choice about them. I don't give them much importance but they do have an impact.

That's where my wife and I fight. [...] She can never see that anything outside of her emotional interpretation can be true.
This seems like the thing I was talking about. But it appears not to be specifically a male/female thing. If our stories follow our emotions and are meant to help manage our feelings, we may end up creating myths that are compelling -- even psychologically essential -- if objectively untrue.

As to what our ethical responsibilities may be when dealing with such stories, I think that's another question. It's easy to apologise to loved-ones even if their perceptions are doing us harm -- because we understand them and our sympathies already lie with them. It's much harder to understand, much less accommodate strangers whose stories harm us, even if those stories are very important to them.

Succinct, huh?
I don't think you wasted a word.
 
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Maxx

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As a reader I hate authors manipulating my emotions.

Are we really so easily manipulated by emotional posturing and synthetic mood?

I'd say we spot the poor manipulators. If you do a good job of manipulating, it just seems like everyday life.

There are a million perfectly good and even fun modes of emotional
manipulation. For example, a well-done bit of flirtation is generally
recognized as such as well as being one of life's better pleasures. And its
almost pure manipulation for its own sake. Like melodrama, but with
better actors.
 

Gehanna

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My husband is the emotion-expressing person and I am the thought-expressing person. We are complete opposites and we function in reversed roles. Our daughter is as a carbon copy of him minus gender while our son is as a carbon copy of me minus gender.

Side note: I do not consider myself a feminist.

From within the limits of personal experience, I find being a rational masterminded female to be difficult. One example would be the frequency of others pointing out how distant I seem to be.

Gehanna
 

Ruv Draba

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I'd say we spot the poor manipulators. If you do a good job of manipulating, it just seems like everyday life.
Or perhaps that we do a good job of manipulation is a story we tell ourselves to feel safe, popular or empowered? Most people are very poor liars, for instance. A social smile is different from a smile of delight. On the other hand...

There are a million perfectly good and even fun modes of emotional
manipulation.
And it seems that many people like to be manipulated... to be flattered, fussed over, have people show them deference beyond what what they deserve, for example. We see this in stores, hotels, restaurants and bars. Perhaps because people seek such things they readily overlook the poor dissemblance in them.

For example, a well-done bit of flirtation is generally
recognized as such as well as being one of life's better pleasures.
I'm sure it is, but it's comically wasted on me. It has Mrs D in stitches of mirth to see people trying to flirt with me.
 

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From within the limits of personal experience, I find being a rational masterminded female to be difficult. One example would be the frequency of others pointing out how distant I seem to be.
I'm sorry you get that, G. There does seem to be some expectation that women are meant to emote more, to be agreeable just for agreeability, to build and work social networks more.

My wife and I are in the same line of work and both consult to the public sector. If I want to tell a stranger that his performance isn't good enough, I have a dozen acceptable ways to do that from polite-but-firm to blunt. But if Mrs D wants to do the same, she has to go through a pantomime of concern and sympathy. It simply isn't acceptable for a woman to tell a stranger "You screwed up. You need to do better" -- at least, not where we work.

On the other hand, we both joke about the "female mafia" -- informal networks on some sites who share just about everything there is to know about what's going on. These aren't low-level workers gossipping, but middle managers and it's a women-only club. In some sites Mrs D finds that she's instantly trusted by women she doesn't know, told pretty much everything, and protected from the politics. That's something I never see myself, and it would shock me if I did.
 

Apsu

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OK. I was drunk, and the thread's been on my mind. I think Nick Cave doing Suzanne can relate to reality and our emotional interpretations of it about as much as any piece of art.

I promise never to do it again.

In this thread.
 

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OK. I was drunk, and the thread's been on my mind.
Ah. That explains it.

I think Nick Cave doing Suzanne can relate to reality and our emotional interpretations of it about as much as any piece of art.
... but no more than most, I suspect. :)

I squinted at the lyrics three or four times and came to the same conclusion, then refrained from posting it because often when people see connections nobody else can, they're on the verge of personal insight[SUP]*[/SUP] and I didn't want to perturb that.

* And sometimes, they're just squiffy. :D
 

Gehanna

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Regarding the female mafia, being a social outlier grants me immunity from consideration for inclusion in organized oppression or cliques of any kind. For this, I am thankful.

The bulk of hassles I deal with come primarily from men who feel the need to test me, cannot tolerate my assertiveness, want to bed me, assume I am a henchwoman for organized oppression, and/or other assorted reasons.

Gehanna
 

Apsu

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That cause and effect thing up above was my way of trying to name what is real. I'm not really concerned with how it works here, just that there is a separation between what is real and how we interpret it emotionally.

I want to talk about prejudice a little, but I see an immediate issue with it. I don't want to spend paragraphs beating myself up to demonstrate that I don't think I'm superior by saying that I think issues of prejudice are connected to our emotional interpretations of what is real. But that's why prejudice is relevant to our emotional interpretation of what is real, it's the most basic "yes/no" response in our minds that judges a situation without knowledge, and matures into our emotions.

Perhaps embarrassing myself with drunken posting will serve as sufficient evidence of my humility, or at least that I ought to have some...

Anyway, all the emotional responses we have start as little "yes/no"s in our brain, and those "yes/no"s are sudden and often without knowledge. A roller coaster ride becomes exhilarating when my brains screams "YES!" and terrifying if my brain screams "No!" Maybe this is even the most basic element of self-awareness.

What is real changes around us, as the roller coaster keeps going, but we carry our emotional responses with us from one moment to the next. It changes everything, and when you hear me say that emotions are based on judgment reactions that happen without knowledge, you hear me call you a dumb racist, and what is real is lost.

This works fine when the people around us share the same "yes/no" response, but when your response to seeing a circus clown is "no" suddenly you're the freak. It doesn't tell us a true story, as the only prejudice that does tell a true story is the prejudice that gets lucky.

I'm not saying emotions are bad. That would be another "no". They're good for sex, and they're good for cooks. But they fail us when we try to describe what is real beyond what we feel.
 

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The bulk of hassles I deal with come primarily from men who feel the need to test me, cannot tolerate my assertiveness, want to bed me, assume I am a henchwoman for organized oppression, and/or other assorted reasons.
Mmm... Mrs D is smart, effective, brooks no shit, yet would like to be treated as a person in the workplace and not just a function. She finds all that nonsense frustrating too. Sympathies, G.
 

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prejudice is relevant to our emotional interpretation of what is real, it's the most basic "yes/no" response in our minds that judges a situation without knowledge, and matures into our emotions.
By yes/no I think you mean like vs dislike, pleasure vs pain? I think it's true that if we like or dislike things strongly we begin to see them as we are rather than as they are. I think it's also possible to see past like or dislike -- to recognise it but not be swayed by it.
when your response to seeing a circus clown is "no" suddenly you're the freak.
Perhaps it depends on the group... many groups cement their identity through shared emotion and obviously that influences thought or else we wouldn't have the phenomenon called 'groupthink'.

Some peoples' emotions are less influence by groups (I'd be one of these), but in my case at least, that comes without a strong need to feel part of a group anyway. It's nice to be among familiar people for the same reason that it's nice to speak a language we know well. But I've been very comfortable among groups I don't belong with. Sometimes I'm more comfortable there than among groups who think I do belong with them, because they look for emotional cues I don't always have; sometimes I feel I should feign the emotions expected of me, but often I just don't see a point to faking it.

Groups often see things according to the expected values of the group. When I talk to individuals they often tell me that they think or feel things differently to the group. Yet when they participate in the group their thoughts and feelings look genuine. Perhaps they're not faking -- their thinking literally changes? That might explain why people sometimes act against their values when they are in groups.
 
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