How many stories do you have to write to write a good one?

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Jamesaritchie

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There is no substitute for a good beta.

Yes, but outside of editors at magazines, good betas are almost impossible to find.

The only way to know you have a good one is to listen to the advice the beta gives you, submit the story, and see if it sells.

Then do it again and again.

By this time, you're in one heck of a lot of trouble if your beta turns out to be a bad one.
 

jaksen

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Listen, gettingby, you have to submit some of those stories. How else will you know you're on the right track or not? You can beta all you want, or have your friends-relatives-coworkers read or not. You can edit and re-edit and obsess over it all you want. What counts is, can you sell it? Will an editor or publisher say, yes, I want this. Here's your check. (Or free copies or whatever some publishers give their writers.)

(Btw I prefer the check.)

You need to take a risk and mail the story or email it. If you sell, you've now got a benchmark as to how to go from there.

I also agree with JAR, btw. I don't use betas. (Though I now have one person who reads mostly for grammar and to make sure what I write makes sense.)

Submit one of your stories!
 

hvysmker

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You don't create new, original, unlike anything else stories by listen to critique groups.

Worse, new writers are told to listen to the majority. If nine people in a group say to change this, and one says leave it alone, new writers are told to make the change. The trouble with this is that odds are extremely high that nine out of ten in a critique group simply have no clue about what makes a story publishable. That one, lone voice just might.
I agree with most of what you said, James, and disagree with some points. I do think critique groups are helpful, though there is a point where a writer is proficient enough in both grammar and logic that they're not needed.

I can't count all the times I've critiqued a story from someone who brags of several self-published books and found the writing attrocious. Those novels would, no doubt, never leave a slush pile, even if submitted a thousand times.

The reason would be that editors found two or three grammar errors in every sentence and quit reading before even finding the storyline. Any editor expects a certain level of expertise.

Many of us have never gone through a creative writing course, have never written more than emails in our lives. Grammar books confuse us. We need some sort of help and have nothing else available in our price range. In my small town, there are no critique groups, I've checked several times.

When deciding to try writing fiction, I found a good critique site and it taught me everything I know. After four or five years, I finally decided I was knowledgable enough to submit.

My work isn't perfect, which is why I still submit for critiques, though mostly to find logic errors and small nits I can't find myself. For example, I have plenty of army experience but have never been on a ship except for two troop ships. One of my novels started aboard a navy ship that fell through a dimensional warp.

The first chapter took place aboard the ship and I had umpteen logic errors. One was that the ship had a captain. Actually, it was a master. Several ex-navy writers were quick to correct me. Now, how in the devil would that original manuscript EVER have seen print?

You may say I should have done my research? That reminds me of a novel chapter I critiqued on another site. The writer was a college grad, history major. The story was about an army unit during WWII. He knew his facts, nothing wrong there, but was lousy about army life during that period.

I had to explain the most basic concepts, such as a first sergeant does NOT do certain things and DOES know damn near everything a company officer does. That the first sergeant runs the company in day to day operations. His novel would also have been doomed for the same reason as mine.

Charlie
 
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Buffysquirrel

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You don't create new, original, unlike anything else stories by listen to critique groups.

Sadly, this is true. When I read Temeraire, which was workshopped at the OWW, I thought, yes, this is exactly the sort of book I'd expect to come out of there.

That said, it is a very popular bad book.

The major advantage of the critique group is not to be critiqued but to critique yourself: to take a critical look at what works and (mostly) doesn't work in other people's writings so you can take what's useful, and apply it to your own. Or you can read slush. That helps, too.

However, SYW is good enough for what the OP needs at this point: encouragement not to give up.
 
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gettingby

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Thanks for all the posts, guys. I'm not new at this, I just don't think I am good. Which makes me wonder how long I really want to keep trying. I feel the same way as some of you about critique groups. I did all that in college. And tended to only listen to my teacher. I know I write well, having been a journalist for the past decade+, but I really seem to struggle with fiction. I love reading short stories and really want to be able to do it. I have been writing one or more stories a week and sending them out. Honestly, I would be shocked if I got an acceptance. So what the hell am I doing?
 

WordCount

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^To be honest, everyone, at some point, thinks the same thing.

Eventually, they come to one conclusion. Do I want to keep writing?(good or bad) Or do I want to invest my time in something else?

It all comes down to your priorities. Me? My stuff could probably be absolutely abysmal, and I'll keep going.
 

Aggy B.

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Tonight I read through all the stories I have written this year, and they all suck. I am trying really hard, but feel like I just might be one of those people that just isn't good enough. I think I am on the verge of quitting short story writing. I feel like I am putting a lot of time into this and producing crap

I thought I would ask all of you what percentage of stories you write do you actually think are good? How many bad ones do I have to write before things click? Does anyone else struggle like this? Is it worth it? I really wish I was good, I'm just not.

You write as many bad stories as it takes. At least, that's what I did. I wrote a lot of crap and put it on the shelf. At some point I started looking at what I'd shelved and realized, it wasn't as crappy as I'd thought. So, I started polishing and sending it out to short story markets. For about a year or so I got nothing but form rejections. Took a break and worked on long form fiction. Came back to the short story game and tried again.

This time it's been more successful. But only because I didn't stop writing.

And, let me be clear, once I finish revisions and do a sweep for typos and such I don't read it again until it's collected five or six rejections or been accepted. If I read a short story I've written within a few months of the final polish I'm always convinced it's crappy. That critical voice that tells me I write shyte is not any quieter now than it was ten years ago. But I've learned to ignore it.

You said you know you can write because you are successful with non-fiction. So hold on to that. Telling a story is a skill, but it's not impossible to learn and you've got a leg up because you already have a good grip on the mechanics of writing.

If it's something you want to do, then do it. You will get better.
 

jaksen

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I probably harbor bad feelings for critique groups (in general) because I wasn't allowed to join one years ago. (Yeah, I am letting my own bad experience affect my feelings over 30 years later.) I was told the group was only for 'serious' writers.

Anyhow, having gotten over that (kind of),I feel if a writer needs a critique group or betas - then he/she needs a critique group or betas.

If a writer doesn't, he/she doesn't.

But I hate the fact that it is assumed one will write a dozen or more 'bad stories' before getting one published. This isn't true at all. I wrote one, two and sold them two, one. (I then sold the next six in a row before I hit the rejection wall. omg, traumatic.)

This isn't true only of me. So I'd dust off those early stories and read them over. Maybe they can be revised, re-edited and sent to some different places - that perhaps didn't even exist when you first wrote them.

I'm revising a few of my rejected stories. Now that I've got some experience and practice, I think I know where I 'went wrong' with them. I'm giving them a second chance.
 

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About a month is the time I set something to the side. If I like the idea, but it's just not selling, or I don't think it's as good as it can be, I put it on the shelf, and return later.

I'm pretty sure I'm about to rip something off it now.
 

Niiicola

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I had a similar experience to jaksen's. I sold the first short story I sent out. I didn't stress about how to write it or look up guidelines -- I just wrote a story based on what I like to read. And I read a lot.

I also was turned away by a critique group after sending them a sample of my writing. That stung, but I reminded myself that I didn't even know the people and had no idea if any of them actually knew how to write. I found another group and met my critique partner, and the two of us ended up leaving the group and now just work together on our respective projects. She's amazing and doesn't let me get away with any laziness. And sometimes I just need somebody to bounce a quick "Does this make sense?" off of.

With the short story I just sold, I purposely didn't put it on SYW because I felt like it was good and it was mine and I didn't want anybody else touching it. But I've posted other stuff on SYW and gotten excellent feedback that's been applicable to my writing as a whole. So I think it really depends on the project and your situation. But it's good to know that you have a ton of options out there that can help you with your writing if you want them. If you feel like you're having problems with certain things like dialogue or character development, post an excerpt and ask for feedback on specifically that.

Ultimately, only you can answer the question for yourself about whether to continue writing. But if you love doing it, don't stop.
 

Buffysquirrel

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Journalism and fiction are so different, though. What works in a newspaper story doesn't work necessarily in a short story, and vice versa? Forget it. However, you probably have a huge advantage in that if you want to include a news story in your short story, you won't make the reader cringe :D.
 

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^As someone who's currently in the production of a Epistolary novel, I must say, this is great advice.
 

gettingby

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Gettingby, are you doing the W1/Sub 1 challenge?

Yes. I think mainly because I don't have anything better to do. I am doing the weekly challenge which I like the small rush it produces, but I'm not sure I will get much more out of it than that. I would like to stick it out for the year just so I can look back and say 2012 was the year I spent writing bad fiction.
 

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Okay, please do this for me.

Remove the word "bad" from your vocabulary. Some of us on here kid around about our work being bad, or not thinking we'll make a submission, sure. But we never, ever, say that we are bad writers. (It's kind of unethical.)

You just gotta shoot for the stars, and hope you hit one.

(I have six stories out right now; two of which are to some most prestigious magazines/competitions in the US. Do I think I'll make it? Well, I guess I could. I'm not guaranteed anything, but it sure can't hurt to try. What's the worst they can say?)
 

gettingby

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The thing is when I read the prestigious magazines and journals my work doesn't even compare to what they are putting out there. I think the way I see my stories is realistic. I wish that wasn't the case. But don't you have to call a spade a spade?
 

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The thing is when I read the prestigious magazines and journals my work doesn't even compare to what they are putting out there. I think the way I see my stories is realistic. I wish that wasn't the case. But don't you have to call a spade a spade?

Eh, I suppose only you know when your writing isn't what you want it to be. As writers, we hold ourselves to a higher standard than everyone around us.

To be honest, the only advice anyone can give is to keep trying. It really doesn't matter if you get seventeen rejections from the same person. What are they going to do? Say, "Oh no! It's this kid again! Throw it in the fire!" Keep trying, and eventually you'll grow into the literary butterfly you wish to be.

I believe it was Calvin Coolidge who said, " Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race."

That's an order from the President, dude.

About the magazine: My stuff really isn't either. I just submitted to Ellery Queen Mystery Magazine. Do I think I'm a shoe-in (hell, even have a good chance?) No. I don't. They have a loads of writers that are not only better than me, but more experienced than me. They have constant readers.
 

Niiicola

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Yes. I think mainly because I don't have anything better to do. I am doing the weekly challenge which I like the small rush it produces, but I'm not sure I will get much more out of it than that. I would like to stick it out for the year just so I can look back and say 2012 was the year I spent writing bad fiction.
Are you just writing the stories in a week and calling them finished? Maybe spending more time on revision might help you achieve results you're happier with. I know there are two schools of thought on this, but there are a lot of very famous writers who say they spend way more time revising than writing.
 

Mad Rabbits

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In that case what I would do if I were you is just suspend judgement on your stories and ability and make your focus for this year to get a body of work together, no matter how poor (in your opinion). Also if you sub each thing you write, you should have an idea by the end of the year how you are coming along.

I spent 2011 writing "crap" and I don't think most of what I wrote is publishable but I felt this year, with all the practise, I was getting better, and this has been confirmed as I just had two stories accepted in the past week.

If you don't think your stuff is anywhere near as good as what is in the prestigious journals (and that isn't surprising if you are starting out), submit a tier or two down, and submit to places that have higher stats for giving personal feedback (someone else suggested this to me, really a very good idea).
 

gettingby

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I don't think it is a good thing to aim too low. I wouldn't want to write for any place
I wouldn't want to read.
 

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In that case what I would do if I were you is just suspend judgement on your stories and ability and make your focus for this year to get a body of work together, no matter how poor (in your opinion). Also if you sub each thing you write, you should have an idea by the end of the year how you are coming along.

I spent 2011 writing "crap" and I don't think most of what I wrote is publishable but I felt this year, with all the practise, I was getting better, and this has been confirmed as I just had two stories accepted in the past week.

If you don't think your stuff is anywhere near as good as what is in the prestigious journals (and that isn't surprising if you are starting out), submit a tier or two down, and submit to places that have higher stats for giving personal feedback (someone else suggested this to me, really a very good idea).


This is also ideal advice. As far as personal rejections go, the only ones I got were from Camroc Press. They told me that the story didn't fit their genre, and to try crime or SF.

And guess what, I did. And, about a day later, it was accepted.

By the way, Duotrope's high acceptance rate list may be where you want to head. I believe Static Movement has a 87.5% acceptance rate.(Incredibly high.) Or, you could go for the quickest markets. (Eunoia, and Camroc.)

It's up to you, but I see some potential in there, and I hate when that stuff is wasted. Keep on going!
 

Mad Rabbits

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I don't think it is a good thing to aim too low. I wouldn't want to write for any place
I wouldn't want to read.

No, I agree - "too low" isn't good. But mid range/semi pro I think is fine if you are just wanting to start getting some shorts published.

There is also a big difference (for me at least) between a lower tier market and one that I wouldn't want to write for. Some magazines and journals (in the literary world anyway) don't pay and aren't hugely prestigious, however they are still respectable journals. For me the key question is "do they publish stuff I want to read and can I see my work as a fit."

I also agree with the advice to try fast responding and/or high acceptance markets.

It sounds like a large part of your issue is a crisis of confidence, which I can totally relate to. If that's the case just seeing something of yours in print or getting some good feedback might give you the impetus to keep going.
 

gettingby

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I am not just looking to get published for the sake of getting published. I kind of think a story is worth what you get paid for it. That is just my opinion. I would just like to be able to create the level of stories I read in the good literary journals.
 

RobJ

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I am not just looking to get published for the sake of getting published. I kind of think a story is worth what you get paid for it. That is just my opinion. I would just like to be able to create the level of stories I read in the good literary journals.
Good. You know what standard you want to achieve. You know your work isn't hitting that standard yet. So what's the difference between the two?

Read as much as you possibly can. Read as widely as you can (by that I mean don't restrict yourself to the last 20 issues of Glimmer Train). Analyse what you read. What makes it tick? Read what others have written about it. What do they think makes it tick? If you don't know how to analyse, read analysis by other people. What is it about some of that good stuff that makes people rate it? What is it about some of that same stuff that makes some people not rate it? Study.

Understand that to begin with you still won't hit that level. Understand, too, that it's okay to not be hitting the highest levels and that getting stuff accepted at places that are lower down the ladder but still respected is a step along the way, part of your apprenticeship. Don't think you have to write like Hemingway. You want to end up writing like you. It probably won't happen overnight. It may takes years. You may write hundreds and hundreds of short stories before you begin to hit a level that really satisfies you. Maybe you'll never quite get there, or maybe you will. No-one can tell you for sure.

So give up if you want to, if you're not prepared to spend years at it, if you're already convinced that you'll never make it. Or get stuck in and be prepared for the long slog, because if you want this success you speak of, you're going to have to work for it, as others have done.

If you write something that you think has turned out crap, junk it or rewrite it. Nothing you do is wasted effort.
 
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