Present participial phrases

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Fallen

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I think it's always a good idea to study the writing in published novels, but if you (generic you, not you in particular) are already of the opinion that such constructions are acceptable/unacceptable, then finding examples of them (or lack thereof) will only reinforce your position, I should think.


This is where we differ again. I don't go into a debate thinking 'generic you' (not me) is that closed minded.


If an editor is going to claim using these 'adjectives' can be a sign of a 'bad writer' well.... it just leaves it open for debate.

As for stylistic references, there's your style, house style, and then a style guide. The last two should compliment the first, nothing more. Gardner is aimed toward the literary market (I assume from the tone), which leaves genre fiction where in his rhetoric? Of course you can apply it genre fiction, but I'd much rather take style points from some respected authority in that genre. Otherwise you're white-washing over the subtle differences within genre writing.

As for what I use, the grammar references, they don't go indepth into genre differences either, they take fiction as a whole.

Both come up short.

Yet nothing yet stated in this thread leads me to believe that meaning can't be inferred naturally (e.g., you don't have to spoon-feed readers with 'upon' etc)), or that it's 'sloppy writing' when used for the right reasons.
 
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Dawnstorm

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Gardner is aimed toward the literary market (I assume from the tone), which leaves genre fiction where in his rhetoric?

Well, I doubt that this is relevant at that level of abstraction. Gardner is a literary critic who thinks that creative writing can be taught. He's also a writer of (mostly?) fantasy fiction. His Grendel is a genre classic. The book (ETA:The Art of Fiction - not Grendel; thoughts leap all over the place; sorry) is essayistic in style. You can see that from the tone of the excerpt posted; it's rhetoric rather than enlightning (aimed to pursuade, rather than impart information).

I refreshed my knowledge of Gardner on his Wikipedia page, and found a link to one of his books on Google books. I was curious how long I'd have to wait for the first participle clause. Turns out there's one in the very first non-dialogue sentence:

John Gardner; October Light said:
The old man glared into the flames in the fireplace and trembled all over, biting so hard on the stem of his pipe that it crackled once, sharply, like the fireplace log.

I didn't find any more on that page; there were two in close succession on page two. Then I stopped reading. (I like his prose. :) )

My problem with Gardner's style is that it relies on the intuition of the author and the reader (and there may be a disconnect in what each means by "often", or "too much" - to the point that communication fails). If you treat participle phrases as "guilty until proven innocent" you will execute lots of innocents without ever realising. Don't take Gardner too seriously on that.

Browne/King are more practical and less essayistic, giving you a rule-of-thumb for editing (as that's their point), but they too single out a certain element and then list arguments against that. The second is an old, old bugbear (the simulaneity one), and you're better off ignoring it until you investigate further. Else you've just acquired a prejudice. The first argument, about foreground/background, is interesting, but you're better off thinking about that in its own terms (using too much foreground, or failing to differentiate between the two is as dangerous as overloading the background).

As for "sloppy writing": I really, really wish people would stop making judgements of writers' dedication to their work from the text: they may disagree with you and like it that way. Then it's not sloppy. Call it bad writing. Call it boring writing. Call it sluggish writing. Or whatever. Use words that express the effect on you, the reader. Not words that make claims about the writer (if you know nothing about him/her). Then I have at least a hint of what you think is wrong with it. Otherwise I'd think you're just repeating prejudice.
 
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BethS

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Gardner is aimed toward the literary market (I assume from the tone), which leaves genre fiction where in his rhetoric?

Fwiw, the full title of his book is: The Art of Fiction: Notes on Craft for Young Writers.

Which would seem to include all genres and types of fiction.
 

BethS

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I refreshed my knowledge of Gardner on his Wikipedia page, and found a link to one of his books on Google books. I was curious how long I'd have to wait for the first participle clause. Turns out there's one in the very first non-dialogue sentence:


Originally Posted by John Gardner; October Light
The old man glared into the flames in the fireplace and trembled all over, biting so hard on the stem of his pipe that it crackled once, sharply, like the fireplace log.


That's a great sentence. And it doesn't use the troublesome kind of infinite-verb clause (as he calls it) that he was talking about in The Art of Fiction.


My problem with Gardner's style is that it relies on the intuition of the author and the reader (and there may be a disconnect in what each means by "often", or "too much" - to the point that communication fails). If you treat participle phrases as "guilty until proven innocent" you will execute lots of innocents without ever realising. Don't take Gardner too seriously on that.

But he's not criticizing all use of those phrases. Only a very specific, problematic use: when they appear at the beginning of a sentence and when they're used to show consecutive actions.


As for "sloppy writing": I really, really wish people would stop making judgements of writers' dedication to their work from the text: they may disagree with you and like it that way. Then it's not sloppy. Call it bad writing. Call it boring writing. Call it sluggish writing. Or whatever. Use words that express the effect on you, the reader. Not words that make claims about the writer (if you know nothing about him/her). Then I have at least a hint of what you think is wrong with it. Otherwise I'd think you're just repeating prejudice.

OK, good point.
 

Dawnstorm

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But he's not criticizing all use of those phrases. Only a very specific, problematic use: when they appear at the beginning of a sentence and when they're used to show consecutive actions.

Ah, yes, he does. And none of the participle clauses I found would fit that mold. (Sorry, sloppy reading on my part. Heh.)
 

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Fwiw, the full title of his book is: The Art of Fiction: Notes on Craft for Young Writers.

Which would seem to include all genres and types of fiction.

Hmm, so to does the Longman Student Grammar. Which again brings up the problem with subtle differences within those genres, or at least acknowledging that there are subtle differences within those genres.

It would be interesting to see if one genre (sub) differs from another on these constructions.

But overall, I'm careful with rhetoric ;)
 

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I hope it's ok to bump an old thread. The topic seems to fit a nightmare issue I'm suddenly having with present participles (PP) and present participle phrases (PPP).

Here are three sentences containing PPs, all of which I'm struggling to understand grammatically:

1. From example in Oxford Dictionary on usage of verb "to spurt", which also happens to contain a second PP:

He stood clutching his neck, blood spurting out in pumps, a look of shock upon his face.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/spurt?q=spurting

2. A sentence I made up:

Nobody was bothered washing the floor.
3. And another:

'This guy looks like trouble,' John said, reading from the Mr. Smith's file.
I believe participles can only be one of three things:

a) Part of a multi-part verb
b) Adjectives
c) Gerunds (nouns)

I've been reading up on PPs and PPPs all week, but I'm still really confused. I could have a stab at each of the above, but rather than using up bandwidth and confusing people with my half-assed guessing I might just leave it up to you guys to help me out.

...........

Fwiw, the reason I'm obsessing about this is that I've recently become convinced - 100% convinced - that present participle phrases are Kryptonite for the amateur writer. As in, one should actively, zealously go out of one's way to avoid them/get rid of majority of them from your WiP. Introductory PPPs in particular seem like Kryptonite lightly sprinkled with Ebola.
 

Amadan

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Your problem is with the tenses.

Nobody was bothered washing the floor.

Should be:

Nobody was bothering to wash the floor.

or

Nobody bothered washing the floor.

'This guy looks like trouble,' John said, reading from the Mr. Smith's file.

This is grammatically correct (except for the 'the'), although as written, he is literally reading those words aloud from the file.
 

pellshek

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Hi Amadan,

Your problem is with the tenses.

Should be:

Nobody was bothering to wash the floor.

or

Nobody bothered washing the floor.

Hm, I'd intended "bothered" to be an adjective here, not a verb/part of a verb conjugation. I think maybe my mistake is that I need to add the word "about" to make it an adjective:

Nobody was bothered about washing the floor
That sentence to my ear has a slightly different sense to your examples, implying more of an on-going state of refusal or lack of willingness. Your examples sound more like an immediate refusal/unwillingness.

In any event, I believe your second example has the same PP "washing" as in my original, and it's this element of the grammar I'm struggling with.

............


This is grammatically correct (except for the 'the'), although as written, he is literally reading those words aloud from the file.

Sure, I get that it's grammatically correct (I appreciate your point about it sounding like he's reading aloud, so maybe "scanning" or "flicking through" would be better) but I'm trying to understand the underlying grammar behind it.

My understanding is that it's a present participle phrase that modifies John, but I'm not at all certain.
 
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