"Does the press have an ethical duty to out powerful gays in tech?"

Deleted member 42 · Aug 29, 2011

AyJay said:
[deep breath]

This is what continues to peck at me about this discussion.

Your sexuality is lots of people's business. In our default heterosexual society, we just don't recognize it.

Hang on now.

I had my partner's picture on my desk. She visited me at work. We socialized with some of my colleagues.

I referred to her as my partner; people knew we lived together, and saw her dropping me off at work.

Our sexuality was not anyone's business. Our relationship was public. They are not identical, though relationship and sexual orientation overlap on a Venn diagram.

A man and a woman in a similar situation would not be expected to declare heterosexuality.

Why should a same-sex couple have to declare homosexuality?

Why should a polyamorous person be expected to declare that to colleagues? Or someone who is bisexual or assexual?

It's not anyone's business.

Roger J Carlson · Aug 29, 2011

AyJay said:
[deep breath]

This is what continues to peck at me about this discussion.

Your sexuality is lots of people's business. In our default heterosexual society, we just don't recognize it.

Have you introduced the person you're sleeping with (who may also be your wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend) to your parents, co-workers, friends, etc.?

Did you (gulp) have a big celebration when the two of you tied the knot, inviting family members and friends to celebrate your sexual and emotional relationship?

Your sexuality is the government's business every time you check off your marital status on IRS forms. It's your employer's business if you enroll a partner in a health insurance plan. It's your neighborhood's business when you walk down the street with your partner all cozy-cozy. It's your card store's business when you buy a Valentine's or Anniversary card for your honey, emblazoned with "For the Man/Woman I Love." It's the jewelry store's business when you ask a salesperson to help you pick out something for your girlfriend, husband, etc.

(And none of this is a bad thing).

Know we've gotten a bit aloft of the outing debate. Just trying to agitate, with a purpose, from the other side of the issue. Are we defending privacy to protect our own discomfort with sexuality? Try this as an experiment: Hide your sexuality for a 48 hour period and see what it's like. If you're an introvert, add another 24 hours. I think it will illuminate the difference between keeping something private vs. hiding a secret.

Well, if I choose to disclose any of those things, that's my decision. If I choose not to, and someone decides to find out who I'm sleeping with, then that's not their business. I'm not really seeing your point.

AyJay · Aug 29, 2011

Our sexuality was not anyone's business. Our relationship was public. They are not identical, though relationship and sexual orientation overlap on a Venn diagram.

That's how I was using the term sexuality. It's not just sex. It's relationships and an assortment of emotions. So, some components of our sexuality are out in the open. Some are not.

Why should a same-sex couple have to declare homosexuality?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Is it: if I've introduced my partner to my co-workers, why do I also have to make a point of telling them that I'm lesbian?

Sorry if I'm reading that wrong, but my answer is, first, you don't have to do anything. I'm not arguing for any sort of ethical imperative. These are complex decisions that LGBT handle in different ways, at different times throughout their lives. Some LGBTs feel it's important to come out to others in order to raise visibility to a community and a cause that is near and dear to them. Other LGBTs feel differently. Whatev's.

Well, if I choose to disclose any of those things, that's my decision. If I choose not to, and someone decides to find out who I'm sleeping with, then that's not their business. I'm not really seeing your point.

I may be missing something, but I find it hard to see how this scenario could play out for a non-gay person, unless there were some unusual circumstances. What's the motivation for hiding your girlfriend/boyfriend/partner from the rest of the world? How does a non-gay person make it through the week keeping that relationship entirely secret?

Ari Meermans · Aug 29, 2011

Okay. Gonna make this personal so it's easier for me: What we're saying is that it's okay for ME to blab about MY OWN private business if I choose to do so. It's not okay for anyone else to make it their mission to blab MY private business to all and sundry. And, if I choose to keep my private business private, it's wrong for someone else to try to ferret it out and publish it.

Vince524 · Aug 29, 2011

So, does this count as someone not knowing when to mind their own business?

304995_10150272038686570_717216569_8368980_6825289_n.jpg

Oh and...

just for anyone who needs it pointed out.

nicolane · Aug 30, 2011

Of course they should "out" those people - as long as they do it properly.

By that I mean - it has to be unequivocally confirmed. Eiuther a sworn statement by the person confirmed, or two videos (with different partners), two videos are needed because just one could have been being a bit curious or very drunk. These vidoes need to be obtained without breaking any privacy laws, of course.

In addition, certain other vital facts need to be established and reported at the same time:

Does the person prefer to drink Coffee, Tea, Hot chocolate or cola? (this one is of utmost importance and should not be neglected!)
Is the person a meat-eater, vegetarian or (gasp) vegan?
What are their views on base of the back tats - are they always a tramp stamp or can they be tasteful?
Do they want World Peace? (people who have watched Miss Congeniality will appreciate this one)

Just to insure impartiality the journalist must also report on their own sexuality, and their current sexual partner (or last one if there is no current one, or mother if they are a virgin - or the last one has a restraining order) must supply details of frequency and favourite sexual position.

With all of this I think it is a fine idea.

And just in case anyone has missed it

Rhoda Nightingale · Aug 30, 2011

@AyJay: Keep in mind those of us non-straight folks not currently in a relationship. Not necessarily "hiding" a partner from anyone, but having our sexuality assumed by default anyway. Where do we fit in? Do we have an obligation to "out" ourselves?

I don't think so. If I had a partner, I wouldn't "hide" them, but the fact that I was seeing someone might not always come up in conversation. Like the fact that I read manga and watch "Doctor Who."

I struggled with this somewhat at my last workplace, actually. "Would it make a difference to these people if told them I was bi? Should I bother, seeing as I'm not dating anyone right now, and likely won't be once I'm done working here?" I decided if the subject of sexuality came up, I would drop my two cents in, and that was about it. Never came up.

Bookewyrme · Aug 30, 2011

Rhoda Nightingale said:
I struggled with this somewhat at my last workplace, actually. "Would it make a difference to these people if told them I was bi? Should I bother, seeing as I'm not dating anyone right now, and likely won't be once I'm done working here?" I decided if the subject of sexuality came up, I would drop my two cents in, and that was about it. Never came up.

This. I'm a happily heterosexually-married woman, but that doesn't erase the fact that I'm bisexual. Do I make references to my husband to almost anyone I meet? Sure. He's a big part of my life, and it would be hard not to. But I do think it's important to note that who one's current partner is does not necessarily denote everything about one's sexuality, and may not say anything at all about one's sexuality. And one's sexuality is entirely that person's (and their current sexual partner's) business. I tell (some) people I'm bisexual. I would be extremely upset and in fact feel violated if people started to tell others about it without my say-so.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 30, 2011

AyJay said:
I may be missing something, but I find it hard to see how this scenario could play out for a non-gay person, unless there were some unusual circumstances. What's the motivation for hiding your girlfriend/boyfriend/partner from the rest of the world? How does a non-gay person make it through the week keeping that relationship entirely secret?

There's a difference between secret, and private.

To wit: Steve Jobs does not talk much at all about his spouse or his offspring. He rarely mentions his children's names, even.

Jodi Foster socialized for years with her partner, with whom she had children. She didn't hide them. She was regularly out in public with them. They lived together. They traveled as a family.

But neither Steve Jobs or Jodi Foster made dramatic announcements about their sexual orientation.

They aren't a secret. They are private.

AyJay · Aug 30, 2011

Medievalist said:
There's a difference between secret, and private.

To wit: Steve Jobs does not talk much at all about his spouse or his offspring. He rarely mentions his children's names, even.

Jodi Foster socialized for years with her partner, with whom she had children. She didn't hide them. She was regularly out in public with them. They lived together. They traveled as a family.

But neither Steve Jobs or Jodi Foster made dramatic announcements about their sexual orientation.

They aren't a secret. They are private.

Agreed. Queer people make personal decisions about the extent they want to be out, and I respect those decisions. To use my personal experience as an example, when I was struggling to come to terms with being gay, I read up on everything -- self-help, queer politics, queer literature -- and what resonated with me is that coming out is a path to personal freedom and community empowerment (Urvashi Vaid, Michelangelo Signirole were my gurus in those days). So, after I got the guts, I made the decision that my coming out wasn't going to be a private matter. I joined political organizations to make the world a better place. I worked professionally to improve the treatment of queer youth. I challenged homophobia when I encountered it. When I hear someone use the word "faggot" or say "that's so gay," I tell them: "I'm gay and I find that offensive." (This happens at the barber shop, at gyms, on commuter trains). And I do a lot of public speaking where it's appropriate to tell an audience of strangers that I'm gay because that's part of my bio and why I got involved in LGBT advocacy, or AIDS work, or whatever topic I'm talking about.

I don't think every queer person should be exactly like me. My partner is a fair bit quieter about coming out actually. But I'll share my POV because that's who I am. I don't think queer public figures or celebrities have any greater responsibility to be out than any other queer person. But for the ones who do come out and make it a political statement, I respect that.

Williebee · Aug 31, 2011

Somewhere, two to three generations down the road, maybe we can get past the concept of "outing", period. From here it feels like Mr. Salmon was either trying to make a media attention grab, or justify a mistake. -- IMO

Roger J Carlson · Aug 31, 2011

AyJay said:
I may be missing something, but I find it hard to see how this scenario could play out for a non-gay person, unless there were some unusual circumstances. What's the motivation for hiding your girlfriend/boyfriend/partner from the rest of the world? How does a non-gay person make it through the week keeping that relationship entirely secret?

Well, non-gay, married people can have open marriages, may be swingers, can have affairs, can be bisexual or gay on the "down-low", or even asexual. None of those things are anyone else's business.

Do you think the press has an obligation to investigate and "out" every famous person who has an affair?

Alpha Echo · Aug 31, 2011

Medievalist said:
There's a difference between secret, and private.

To wit: Steve Jobs does not talk much at all about his spouse or his offspring. He rarely mentions his children's names, even.

Jodi Foster socialized for years with her partner, with whom she had children. She didn't hide them. She was regularly out in public with them. They lived together. They traveled as a family.

But neither Steve Jobs or Jodi Foster made dramatic announcements about their sexual orientation.

They aren't a secret. They are private.

This exactly. EVERYone has a right to publicize or not any detail of their lives.

Gay, straight. Childless, with child. Pregnant, not.

Almost reminds me of shades of my mother. Actually, it does.

My sister recently got pregnant. She made the mistake of telling my mother first who told my sister she had 30 minutes to contact everyone she wanted to tell before my mother blasted it on FB.

Meanwhile, my mother posted things like, "I have news!"

Everyone knew one of my sisters was pregnant.

Gross.

Why can't everyone let everyone else share their own news about everything when, if, and how they want to?

Deleted member 42 · Aug 31, 2011

Williebee said:
Somewhere, two to three generations down the road, maybe we can get past the concept of "outing", period. From here it feels like Mr. Salmon was either trying to make a media attention grab, or justify a mistake. -- IMO

From the day Tim was selected as the interim CEO in 2005 the press has obsessed over his private life.

backslashbaby · Aug 31, 2011

'Are you two an item?'

That can happen regardless of your orientation, and it can be quite flustering, in my experience.

So it doesn't mean the answer has to be something you mean to hide. It's just not something you feel like discussing to any random person who asks.

eta: the real answer was that I wasn't completely sure. Friends with benefits, I thought? Should I really be discussing this with people I don't really know?

AyJay · Aug 31, 2011

Roger J Carlson said:
Well, non-gay, married people can have open marriages, may be swingers, can have affairs, can be bisexual or gay on the "down-low", or even asexual. None of those things are anyone else's business.

Do you think the press has an obligation to investigate and "out" every famous person who has an affair?

Scroll up. I said above I don't believe there's an "ethical imperative" to out public figures. Will the press do it anyway? Sure, for various reasons. I brought up the issue of equitable treatment versus ethical imperatives. I don't think a gay public figure should be treated any differently than a non-gay public figure. If the American public were more comfortable with sexuality generally, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.

And I personally think it would be pretty damn brilliant if a public figure who was married m/f came out as bisexual in order to break down assumptions about heterosexuality and bisexuality.

PrincessofPersia · Aug 31, 2011

Alpha Echo said:
My sister recently got pregnant. She made the mistake of telling my mother first who told my sister she had 30 minutes to contact everyone she wanted to tell before my mother blasted it on FB.

Meanwhile, my mother posted things like, "I have news!"

Everyone knew one of my sisters was pregnant.

Gross.

Why can't everyone let everyone else share their own news about everything when, if, and how they want to?

And if it were me, she would be the last to know any sort of news like that. That's just childish behaviour.

"Does the press have an ethical duty to out powerful gays in tech?"

Deleted member 42

Roger J Carlson

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AyJay

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backslashbaby

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"Does the press have an ethical duty to out powerful gays in tech?"

Deleted member 42

Moderator In Name Only

Luv's Conscript

MacAllister's Official Minion & Greeter

Are you gonna finish that bacon?

Adorably Unhinged

Vampire Junkie

Imagined half of it.

Deleted member 42

Luv's Conscript

Capeless, wingless, & yet I fly.

Moderator In Name Only

I should be writing.

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