CHOOSING AN EDITOR: A RUSH (OR RASH) DECISION

quicklime

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Part of writing well is learning to revise your own work.

If you get a publishing contract, your editor isn't going to make those changes for you: she'll just point out the problems with it and in some instances, suggest solutions. It'll be up to you to resolve those problems and implement those solutions, and if you've been too busy to learn how to revise your own work you'll be in trouble.

Revising isn't wasting time: it's an essential part of writing. And if you find a "pro" willing to be hired to do it for you, you'll be wasting your money. Good editors don't do that; bad editors can't.


i guess I'm in bed with hack on this one....the argument about editing seems even worse, but in the same vein as people who bemoan an inability to write a query letter....if you want to be a writer, there's more to it than putting a story on paper. If Justin Verlander said all he wanted to focus on was pitching, because that was his strong point so fuck fielding or batting, you'd think he was at best myopic, and at worst a preening little snowflake. To me, not learning the skills to edit effectively, especially if the arguments are things like "time spent," is much the same.....at the very best you shortchange yourself as a whole, for dubious gain.
 

Old Hack

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There's so much more to editing than grammar, haunted.

I'm glad things worked out well for you, but I'm not convinced that paying for editing is always a good way to go.

And you didn't answer my question: who are you publishing with?
 

haunted

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PS: yes, I do know how much more to editing there is, (than grammar) I guess that's why I don't feel confident that my own sketchy editing is good enough....plus originally I was planning on self-publishing, so wanted it to be as good as possible.
 

Noman

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PS: yes, I do know how much more to editing there is, (than grammar) I guess that's why I don't feel confident that my own sketchy editing is good enough....plus originally I was planning on self-publishing, so wanted it to be as good as possible.
I have to side with you, Haunted. While Hack is not altogether incorrect, I have neither the time, interest, or skill.
 

Susan Coffin

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Noman and Haunted,

If you want to be a writer, learning how to edit your own work is an absolute must. It is part of a writer's job. I have heard this from agents and many people in publishing, as well as read it countless times on in many writers forums.

If you don't have the time to edit your own work, you don't have the time to write. Period.

By the way, Old Hack is 100% correct in the advice she has given you.
 

haunted

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Well, sure, I edit my own work as I go--Im talking about having another eye, a pro, looking it over beforehand. makes me feel I didn't miss anything dumb...Sent you a private reply as well susan.
 

Old Hack

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Llewellyn Worldwide. Book release is July 2013. the perfect publisher for me, and I've been very happy with them so far.

I used to edit esoteric non-fiction, but didn't encounter them. Thanks for letting me know.

I wonder if the issue here is one of semantics.

There is a big difference between revising one's own work and editing it: I'm not convinced that writers should ever edit their own work, but I do think we should all be capable of thoroughly revising our own work.

And books should all be edited before they're published: but I'm not convinced that we should pay to have them edited prior to submitting them to publishers, although I know several writers who this has worked well for.

Is that clear? Because I do wonder if we're all actually agreeing here, but are just approaching the issue from different directions.
 

haunted

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I think you may be right Hack. Maybe my definition of edit and revise are wrong. As i mentioned, I'm a bit anal and cursed with perfectionisim as well....probably out of fear of screwing it up myself! But I do revise constantly while i'm writing, so guess that's editing as well. I've learned a tremendous amount from the editor though, so it's been worth it for me, and has made me a better writer/reviser-or would that be revisor? see what I mean? LOL.
 

Noman

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Noman and Haunted,

If you want to be a writer, learning how to edit your own work is an absolute must. It is part of a writer's job. I have heard this from agents and many people in publishing, as well as read it countless times on in many writers forums.

If you don't have the time to edit your own work, you don't have the time to write. Period.

By the way, Old Hack is 100% correct in the advice she has given you.
Example of a publisher rejection:
"I'm going to be completely honest with you. I'll give you feedback on The SHIVA Syndrome because you are a great writer and I do think that this could be published with some changes.

I freelance edit for a living. I will give you some free tips on this one because I think your writing is good and for me to accept this particular story as a "job" would not be ethical after being turned down by XXX. :)

This story is very cumbersome. It has many characters that are difficult to keep track of. Some of your characters (some of the minor ones) you have given too much attention to. You use a lot of big words and concepts, which makes reading the story difficult to get through.

This is definitely a science fiction/paranormal story...it's a great storyline....and you definitely can write.

If I were you, I would cut down some of it - try to get it down to around 300 pages. I would also "dumb it down". Most novels are written at an 8th grade level for ease of reading and understanding.

My other suggestion would be to research publishers... to me, this is a "man" book. It's got the government and political stuff going on...XXX is primarily "women's" books.

After you make those changes, try some other publishers... there are lots out there and I do think you can get published."

Forgetting the "womens' press" aspect, the writer points to too many characters and "dumbing down" the narrative. Frankly, I don't see it and I have problems seeing where and how to "dumb it down." BTW, none of my betas ever complained about either of these problems--and they were largely women.
 

haunted

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i'd def go for a private editor....to get that much constructive feedback to me seems good...some of it could also be a subjective thing. But if you've heard the same thing more than once, i'd pay attention.
 
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Noman

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Well that's some good advice, and i'd def go for a private editor....to get that much constructive feedback to me seems a very good thing... keep in mind, those at the editor level will pick up on what's wrong more than the casual reader, no matter what gender. And some of it could also be a subjective thing. But if you've heard the same thing more than once, i'd pay attention. That's sort of the rule in the songwriting business as well--if you hear the same critique 3 times-follow the advice.
Like the old Russian adage, if three people sequentially call you a horse, it's time to buy a bale of hay.
Now you understand the quandary. I contacted your person. She, along with four others will look at a chapter I attached and provide a sample.
But in investigating these people, none have edited books that sold to a major hitter. That makes me very uneasy.
I know--from all the feedback--that I have a winner, but I hate being dependent on an unknown to help me reach that goal.
 

Old Hack

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Noman, I'm going to disagree with hunted. I don't think that's good advice at all. Not one bit.

Telling you to "dumb down" your novel? That's insulting to your readership, and is cynical in the extreme. "Most novels are written at an 8th grade level for ease of reading and understanding"? Bollocks. (Excuse me.) "to me, this is a "man" book. It's got the government and political stuff going on...XXX is primarily "women's" books"? That's sexist and patronising.

It doesn't read to me like it was written by an editor who knows their stuff. I might be very wrong, of course: but if any of my readers or editors had sent you that sort of feedback I'd have been very wary of letting them loose on anyone's work. It's just not on.

I suggest that you spend some time here contributing to our Share Your Work section, and when you have fifty posts to your name you'll be able to post some of your own work for critique. I know this won't give us an idea of how you deal with the larger story arcs, but it'll let us help you with your prose, and see if those "big words and concepts" really do make "reading the story difficult to get through" (and as an editor I take exception to that clause, as it's cumbersome, confusing and repetitive). There are some very talented editors here, who will help you, I know: and if you drop me a PM when it's up I'll be happy to take a look. And if you want to let me know who it was who sent you that feedback I'd be very interested: I'm gobsmacked by it, to be honest, and just a bit angry on your behalf.
 

bmadsen

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Noman, I'm going to disagree with hunted. I don't think that's good advice at all. Not one bit.

Telling you to "dumb down" your novel? That's insulting to your readership, and is cynical in the extreme. "Most novels are written at an 8th grade level for ease of reading and understanding"? Bollocks. (Excuse me.) "to me, this is a "man" book. It's got the government and political stuff going on...XXX is primarily "women's" books"? That's sexist and patronising.

It doesn't read to me like it was written by an editor who knows their stuff. I might be very wrong, of course: but if any of my readers or editors had sent you that sort of feedback I'd have been very wary of letting them loose on anyone's work. It's just not on.

I suggest that you spend some time here contributing to our Share Your Work section, and when you have fifty posts to your name you'll be able to post some of your own work for critique. I know this won't give us an idea of how you deal with the larger story arcs, but it'll let us help you with your prose, and see if those "big words and concepts" really do make "reading the story difficult to get through" (and as an editor I take exception to that clause, as it's cumbersome, confusing and repetitive). There are some very talented editors here, who will help you, I know: and if you drop me a PM when it's up I'll be happy to take a look. And if you want to let me know who it was who sent you that feedback I'd be very interested: I'm gobsmacked by it, to be honest, and just a bit angry on your behalf.


I've been following this thread and find it very interesting. I must side with you on this one: this advice is quite harsh, unfounded and, most of all, concerning. Be very careful with people o'er the internet as everyone acts tough behind a monitor.

Learning to edit, revise and criticize your work is essential (IMO) because it gives you a better writing skill overall.

After all, the best writer is a re-writer.
 

Old Hack

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I don't object to the advice because it's tough and so on, bmadsen: I object to it because it seems ill-informed to me.
 

bmadsen

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Old hack, totally agreed. My past post did not come out right. I agree with you in the sense that this advice tells of unprofessional behavior. Cheers!
 

quicklime

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again with hack, on the first read that didn't strike me as a particularly "legit" critique from anyone running a business. I could TOTALLY be wrong, but I would highly, highly recommend you check that agent or editor out at Predators and Editors and in our Bewares section here.

I find it hard to believe as a "public-facing" employee that an up-and-up agent or editor would be using the wordage that you pasted ("dumb it down", "this doesn't appeal to women" as though ovaries were a genre indicator, etc.) both in professional terms and as a matter of them having a clue about the markets and what they are doing.

I'd be really, really troubled by a note like that and want to see what folks have had to say about the author of it.
 

Susan Coffin

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Noman,

Those rejections are insulting to you as a writer. Why are you putting any validity into them?

I provided a link to Preditors and Editors above. I suggest you use it before submitting to anyone.
 

haunted

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Noman, if that editor is one of the biggies, you still have to allow for personal idiocy...LOL. I do have the name of another editor who HAS sold his own and other works he's edited to the majors--but i hope you have a trust find.....I sure couldn't afford him...
 

Noman

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I'm glad I shared that. It seems to have catalyzed quite a reaction and tells us what/who's out there reviewing out manuscripts. BTW, it was Etopia press.
 

Old Hack

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I'm glad I shared that. It seems to have catalyzed quite a reaction and tells us what/who's out there reviewing out manuscripts. BTW, it was Etopia press.

We have a thread about Etopia Press in BR&BC.

I suggest you pay particular attention to Stacia Kane's comment at #9:

I'm ashamed that I forgot to update here when I got new info--well, I was asked to let some time pass before mentioning it lest the authors in question be identified, but I hadn't intended to let *this* much time pass.

I've heard of problems from more than one of their authors: bad editing, bad treatment, an owner getting angry and abusive when questioned.

That might explain quite a lot.
 

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I also found that letter/rejection very concerning. I would suggest posting it in the Bewares thread Old Hack linked so that other writers can know about it; I would not want to submit to a publisher who employed such an editor.

ETA: I also would also caution taking editing advice from someone who had that many typos in a business email.
 
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mccardey

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Gotta say, I'm still wondering whether it's only "man" books that are written at 8th grade level - and what level "women's" books are written for (you know - the ones without the "government and political stuff.")

Medi, kitten? Can you help us out here, sweetie-pie? (I'm just guessing that since you're a girlie who likes to play around with books, you might have some - yanno - magical intuition about it...)

But not if you're busy doing your pretty little nails or anything.
 

quicklime

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Gotta say, I'm still wondering whether it's only "man" books that are written at 8th grade level - and what level "women's" books are written for (you know - the ones without the "government and political stuff.")

.


they are written at second-grade level. they mostly cover knitting, cooking, and where to find coupons. there is a section on sex, called "lay there and complain less, bitch" in most of them.

I'm surprised you haven't seen any of these women's books, they publish about every 28 days.



*runs for door



***edit: yes, that was sarcasm
 
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WeaselFire

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Why hire an editor instead of learning the craft yourself?
In my last book, it was three editors. A simple copy edit to catch the grammar, typos, etc. You wouldn't believe how many little things slip past.

Then a technical editor, checking and proofing the content. Non-fiction, so this likely doesn't directly apply to novels.

A formatting and proofing editor. This also may not apply in fiction works, but for non-fiction it was almost essential to get the book done.

You'll notice I didn't have a story edit, which I would add in any fiction work. Good beta readers can help, but a story editor will really tighten up a manuscript and make it publishable.

No editor I have ever used simply corrected my work. They all have returned the corrections for my approval. Some I don't approve, or I rewrite. It's not a matter of learning the craft, I can write and edit just fine. But it's just my eyes, close to the work. I need someone impartial to stand back and look from a fresh angle to make my work as good as it can be.

How I found editors that worked for me:

The first good editor was simply the one assigned by my first publisher. I lucked out. Others have been on recommendations of other writers, publishers, agents and editors. Not all have been phenomenal, but none of them have been scammers.

On the flip side, I'm beginning a series of books that will be self-published ebooks and I will not be using any outside help. We'll see how that goes. :)

Jeff
 
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