Oh, man, I can't believe I said THAT in a post!
- Thread starter Silver King
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Wow. I just went with, "I fart in your general direction."
See, I hate The French.
Now if you were to say something about killer rabbits...well...
*cheeks begin to glisten like the moonlight on sparkly ocean waves in the night*
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I stopped critting in SYW because of the snark in there. If I'm going to be held to good comments only, fuck it. I'm tired of defending myself. Don't take the suggestion, but don't tell me that something I say from experience is wrong or stupid, it's counterproductive.
In a thread about querying publishers directly, I said that I did it and was invited to lunch at Ben's Deli on 39th street in NYC on Nov. 3rd, by Gary Goldstein from Kensington Press, and was called a liar.
I'll tell you this, it gets harder and harder for me to give opinions.
I used to have a personal rule for AW (and anywhere online) which was to not post anything that wasn't completely neutral, and definitely to avoid anything that might cause a lurking reader to think, "I don't like her - I'll never buy anything she writes!" I found it hard to stick to that 100% of the time, and I've posted a lot of things I regret lately (such as in this thread). However, I know it's important to own our words, and I think we learn from our bad posts and comments how to communicate what we want to communicate, better, and hope that we get a second chance to redeem ourselves. I don't think the majority of AW members are looking to be offended. I'm here for the community of writers, and I expect most other people are, too. We all have our own individual approaches and personalities, but we've got a lot more in common with each other than we have in opposition.
Of course I regret crap that I post. In fact, I stick my foot in my mouth so much around here that all I can taste is sock, half the time.
(goes nicely with ketchup)
(goes nicely with ketchup)
A-1 sauce.Of course I regret crap that I post. In fact, I stick my foot in my mouth so much around here that all I can taste is sock, half the time.
(goes nicely with ketchup)
Not to be argumentative.
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I've said things I've regretted. The things I regret are too personal. Or poorly researched. Or so stinkin' blunt, to-the-point, or sarcastic, I end up having to write 500 words to explain what I said (and by then, people have their armor on and don't feel like taking it off, even though we share the same opinion 
).
But in the end, its all good. I think debating on forums such as these has made me a bolder, better writer ... I have much thicker skin than I used to, and am learning how to take constructive criticism when it comes my way, while filtering out the insults. Also, I'm no longer so concerned with offending people.
All said and done, it's best to be myself, because I'm damned whatever I do.
). But in the end, its all good. I think debating on forums such as these has made me a bolder, better writer ... I have much thicker skin than I used to, and am learning how to take constructive criticism when it comes my way, while filtering out the insults. Also, I'm no longer so concerned with offending people.
All said and done, it's best to be myself, because I'm damned whatever I do.
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I dunno... it's hard with all the pc do-gooders floatin' about. We're all meant to play nice and all that. Bugger that and just say what's on your mind - it's not like you get a second chance in a face to face convo...
Can't say I'ver regretted posting anything 'cause I tend not to post...dunno why but figured by the time I get on, you folks have already moved onto something else
Can't say I'ver regretted posting anything 'cause I tend not to post...dunno why but figured by the time I get on, you folks have already moved onto something else
In an attempt to fuck with IRU's head, I am about to post something sensible.
Ahem.
About my earlier posts where I denigrated the warm and fuzzy folks. I noticed after that, some people got defensive. It's inevitable after posting the way I did some would rise up and say "What you call warm and fuzzy, I call being polite."
Similarly, what you call being unnecessarily rude, I call 'telling it like it is'.
Do I go out of my way to cause offence? No. Will I water down my opinions on certain matters for fear of causing offence? HELL no.
As an example. When it comes to beta-reading, I'm often asked to look over chapters and sometimes entire novels for other AWers (something about which I haven't been disciplined enough lately; rest assured I'm getting there). I always preface it by saying, "Now, you do realise I'll be honest with you? If I don't like it I'll say, but I'll also tell you why I don't like it and what doesn't work?"
And always, always, always, the person says, "Yeah, yeah, that's fine. I can take it."
Hmm.
Not so.
I don't go out of my way to cause offence, but I sometimes do anyway when I come up against someone who wants me to stroke their ego under the guise of a crit or beta-read.
As an example, I once read someone's first chapter and I swear on Colin Farrell's left nut, the strongest thing I said was, "You haven't given us a reason to care about the MC. It's all melodrama and no background. Sure, they're upset, but why should I, as a reader, care that they are? I'm not emotionally invested."
Well. It all kicked off then. End result was the writer concerned said I'd almost driven them to give up writing and things got really ugly online - as in blog posts they thought I couldn't see and messages on other fora, likewise.
So often when someone says "I want an honest crit," they don't mean it. Or their level of 'honest' is different from mine. And I just don't have the time to fanny about stroking someone's ego.
This doesn't mean I get up in the morning thinking, "Ooh, now how many people can I offend today?" It means, yes, I may spend much of my time at home but I have work to do and other commitments which I won't go into here. So when I give up a chunk of my day to beta your book, that's something I'm doing for you. What I want from you in return is the acceptance that I love books more than I love you. I'm doing this for the story, not to wank you off.
There will always be people who find offence in what you say, write, post here, blog about, or express in any way. There will always be clashes of personality. We can adjust our presentation style so as not to deliberately cause offence, I'll admit - but when it comes to watering down the message so the original intent isn't there any more and we're all about pussyfooting around some precious snowflake's delicate personality, rather than improving our craft?
Fuck. That. Shit.
I know I offend plenty of people here. That bothers me. Not enough to do anything about it, but if you know someone out there doesn't like you, well...it doesn't sit well.
By the same token, the very qualities that piss people off endear me to others. I often get reps, PMs and emails to the effect of, "Wow, I wish I had your balls," or, "Don't change - I love your honesty."
So I can't please everyone. I don't even try. I'd rather put my energies into the thing I love above all else, even popularity:
Writing.
Ahem.
About my earlier posts where I denigrated the warm and fuzzy folks. I noticed after that, some people got defensive. It's inevitable after posting the way I did some would rise up and say "What you call warm and fuzzy, I call being polite."
Similarly, what you call being unnecessarily rude, I call 'telling it like it is'.
Do I go out of my way to cause offence? No. Will I water down my opinions on certain matters for fear of causing offence? HELL no.
As an example. When it comes to beta-reading, I'm often asked to look over chapters and sometimes entire novels for other AWers (something about which I haven't been disciplined enough lately; rest assured I'm getting there). I always preface it by saying, "Now, you do realise I'll be honest with you? If I don't like it I'll say, but I'll also tell you why I don't like it and what doesn't work?"
And always, always, always, the person says, "Yeah, yeah, that's fine. I can take it."
Hmm.
Not so.
I don't go out of my way to cause offence, but I sometimes do anyway when I come up against someone who wants me to stroke their ego under the guise of a crit or beta-read.
As an example, I once read someone's first chapter and I swear on Colin Farrell's left nut, the strongest thing I said was, "You haven't given us a reason to care about the MC. It's all melodrama and no background. Sure, they're upset, but why should I, as a reader, care that they are? I'm not emotionally invested."
Well. It all kicked off then. End result was the writer concerned said I'd almost driven them to give up writing and things got really ugly online - as in blog posts they thought I couldn't see and messages on other fora, likewise.
So often when someone says "I want an honest crit," they don't mean it. Or their level of 'honest' is different from mine. And I just don't have the time to fanny about stroking someone's ego.
This doesn't mean I get up in the morning thinking, "Ooh, now how many people can I offend today?" It means, yes, I may spend much of my time at home but I have work to do and other commitments which I won't go into here. So when I give up a chunk of my day to beta your book, that's something I'm doing for you. What I want from you in return is the acceptance that I love books more than I love you. I'm doing this for the story, not to wank you off.
There will always be people who find offence in what you say, write, post here, blog about, or express in any way. There will always be clashes of personality. We can adjust our presentation style so as not to deliberately cause offence, I'll admit - but when it comes to watering down the message so the original intent isn't there any more and we're all about pussyfooting around some precious snowflake's delicate personality, rather than improving our craft?
Fuck. That. Shit.
I know I offend plenty of people here. That bothers me. Not enough to do anything about it, but if you know someone out there doesn't like you, well...it doesn't sit well.
By the same token, the very qualities that piss people off endear me to others. I often get reps, PMs and emails to the effect of, "Wow, I wish I had your balls," or, "Don't change - I love your honesty."
So I can't please everyone. I don't even try. I'd rather put my energies into the thing I love above all else, even popularity:
Writing.
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In an attempt to fuck with IRU's head, I am about to post something sensible.
bitch
Everyone's tolerances are different. That doesn't necessarily make it a character flaw on either of our parts.
Telling it like it is is not always rude. It's HOW you do it.
I can say 'you're crap' or I can say 'This needs work.' Both are 'telling it how it is'. Only one is rude.
That's not rude, that's honest. If you'd have said 'What a crap opening, do it moar betterer' that would be rude.
Ouch
Like I say it's not necessarily stroking egos, it phrasing an honest opinion with tact, or at least constructively. 'I can do this and if you can't you're just not serious about your writing' is on the cusp of rude. 'I can do this, but I appreciate not everyone can' is not.
Ahem I never said water down your opinion. Yes some people will always take offence, can't help that. Doesn't mean I should go balls out though lol.
As writers we own our words. There is always more than one way to say something. Honest is one thing, and as I've said, fine, I do that in my own crits. Rude, I don't. Does that make me dishonest? No, it means I think about what phrasing to use to get my message across most clearly - as I (try to) do with whatever I write.
So do I.
However I think it's best to remember I'm not the only ego ion the room. You stomp on someone else's with hobnail boots, it's gonna bite ya in teh arse. Karma, baby.
Indeed.
BTW I now have 'It ain't what you do, it's the way that you do it' stuck in my head. Bananarama and Fun Boy Three.
Thanks, moobag.
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I trust your head is well and truly fuckered.
Think I'll go back to my usual nonsensical style now my work here is done!
Think I'll go back to my usual nonsensical style now my work here is done!
I trust your head is well and truly fuckered.
Only by Fun Boy Fecking Three.
*loads Motorhead to try and cleanse brain*
... whether the preferred approach or not, bluntness requires something: a degree of expertise. For me, I've never really had that when it comes to evaluating other's writings. Sure I can spot something that isn't working grammatically and if I choose, be blunt about it because I pretty much know I am right.
But with other things like whether a scene is working or not I'm never entirely sure. So for that reason I couch my opinions, accordingly, "this may not be working," etc. To do otherwise and be declarative about the matter, "This isn't working. Trash it." would lead the writer I was beta-ing to put more weight on my evaluation than it deserved and encourage them to follow my advise more than justified. And as such I'd be messing up their work, potentially.
I am just speaking for myself here and others who lack that expertise. But for those who do have some degree of it, and there are some here who absolutely do, then whether called for or not their bluntness is at least justified. What annoys me, if anything, are people in SYW who come across all loud and forceful and then when you read their critiques you find that while they do know some stuff they are far from being any authority on writing. And yet there they are standing on their soapboxes and telling people what they 'must' do.
Last observation about beta-ing is that anyone who does it is to be treated in a thankful manner, except if they step way out of bounds and call one an imbecile or the like, because beta-ing is really a generous undertaking.
But with other things like whether a scene is working or not I'm never entirely sure. So for that reason I couch my opinions, accordingly, "this may not be working," etc. To do otherwise and be declarative about the matter, "This isn't working. Trash it." would lead the writer I was beta-ing to put more weight on my evaluation than it deserved and encourage them to follow my advise more than justified. And as such I'd be messing up their work, potentially.
I am just speaking for myself here and others who lack that expertise. But for those who do have some degree of it, and there are some here who absolutely do, then whether called for or not their bluntness is at least justified. What annoys me, if anything, are people in SYW who come across all loud and forceful and then when you read their critiques you find that while they do know some stuff they are far from being any authority on writing. And yet there they are standing on their soapboxes and telling people what they 'must' do.
Last observation about beta-ing is that anyone who does it is to be treated in a thankful manner, except if they step way out of bounds and call one an imbecile or the like, because beta-ing is really a generous undertaking.
There's a phenomenon online, and yes, it's very much present here on AW, where women who are direct and specific are told that their "tone" is unacceptable.
I'm not talking about wanton malice, or being cruel. I'm not talking about, for instance, saying "your writing is shitty, and no one will ever publish you." Those are not acceptable, or even common, on AW.
When people assumed that medievalist=male, they were far more willing to tolerate me making an assertion of fact, than when they realized I was female. (And it's not like I hid it, for crying out loud; my name is on every post I've made.)
There are cultural assumptions that if you're female you should be "nice," that there are different standards for men and women.
I'm not talking about wanton malice, or being cruel. I'm not talking about, for instance, saying "your writing is shitty, and no one will ever publish you." Those are not acceptable, or even common, on AW.
When people assumed that medievalist=male, they were far more willing to tolerate me making an assertion of fact, than when they realized I was female. (And it's not like I hid it, for crying out loud; my name is on every post I've made.)
There are cultural assumptions that if you're female you should be "nice," that there are different standards for men and women.
At the risk of publicly agreeing with Medievalist D)...yeah. I agree with her.
A female friend once told me that I'm single because I scare men, I'm too intelligent and that I should let men know I need them.
So I asked, "Would you tell a man to be so needy, or advise them to temper their personality?"
D)...yeah. I agree with her.A female friend once told me that I'm single because I scare men, I'm too intelligent and that I should let men know I need them.
So I asked, "Would you tell a man to be so needy, or advise them to temper their personality?"
I'm bowled over by you Medi. I don't care what gender you are. Anyone who feels that way is cheating themselves. I've followed you around for 11 months now and I'm a better writer for my efforts.
