Treble Heart Books

If the publisher has stated the rights have reverted in writing, but are continuing to sell the book, then that's copyright infringement. I would definitely send a "cease and desist" letter threatening infringement litigation to both the publisher and the distributors. The distributors would likely stop stocking the book even if the publisher tries to keep selling.

I just said thanks to all, & now I have a plan on what to do.

As Priceless said, this may be a matter either of Treble Heart and online vendors selling off existing print stock (which they have the right to do, even after a title has been taken out of print and rights reverted), or being tardy in updating their listings.

Given what I've heard about Treble Heart, I think you may have to take matters into your own hands, and contact the vendors and the publisher yourself. If the publisher continues to sell the books, you'll need another plan of action, but hopefully that won't happen.

If the email specifically states that the books are no longer under contract, I think that should be sufficient documentation of rights reversion.

- Victoria

Deb Kinnard said:

If the rights have reverted to me, they should no longer be on sale. I'm assuming I do NOT have my rights back, and Lee was being (at best) disingenuous, or as a single-person operation, has simply not had the time to pull the titles.

Click to expand...

You know, just recently I discovered that New Concepts had posted a "release of rights" for one of my older books on their website. They also stated that they would continue to sell existing stock until it's gone. Sounds like that's what THB is doing.

However, like you, I would hesitate to re-submit books that are still being sold somewhere.

Have you heard any more?

No, nothing more at this time. I haven't e-mailed Lee Emory yet. What I want to do either way is: upload these existing and reverted titles onto BookShare. They are a site that makes print books available in Braille or another format to visually impaired people. It's not a sale, since no money changes hands. Technically I'm told I "have" the rights -- would any more savvy (savvier?) folks weigh in on this?

Gosh, don't know about that, Deb. Would be interesting to hear.

Interesting thread on Whispers and Warnings on this place:

http://forums.writersweekly.com/viewtopic.php?t=8241&sid=c46c997be2eed988da3ec1d3db5145bd

You are required to buy 30 copies of your book up front and to continue buying it for the life of the book?! No free copies?

Interesting language in the section about buying other authors' books.

There's more, but you can read it for yourself.

inkkognito said:

Interesting thread on Whispers and Warnings on this place: you are required to buy 30 copies of your book up front and to continue buying it for the life of the book? No free copies?

Interesting language in the section about buying other authors' books.

There's more, but you can read it for yourself.

Click to expand...

This is nothing new for THB. When I signed my first contract with them in '02, it was recommended we buy 20-40 copies for promo, reviews, etc. It wasn't required then. At no time were there free copies to the author, other than in the early days when e-releases were also sold via disc -- we were entitled to ten, if I recall correctly.

At that time THB was a 1.5 person operation--there was a second person who would send out e-copies of the books for review. If a reviewer demanded a print copy, it was the author's job to provide it. A couple years later, the publisher and her assistant parted company and after that, THB sent no copies out for review of which I am aware.

As far as Ingrams, THB chose Baker & Taylor as distributors, mostly because of the brutal discounts Ingrams requires when dealing with a short-run publisher. My books have never been able to get into the chain bookstores through B&T, at least not on a national basis. Several chains for whom I did booksignings did get my titles into the database and then technically the book becomes available to any store across the country.

Technically.

I remember when my second book was out a couple months (2004), I went into a Borders and asked for it, not identifying myself as the author. "Oh," they said, "sorry, we can't get that. We show that title, but it's out of print." To this day it is not out of print.

Such are the downsides of small-press publishing.

And this document doesn't reflect the agreement I made with THB. The marketing was always understood, however, to be about 95% on our shoulders as authors. As I'm told it is in many another small press relationship.

Deb Kinnard said:

Such are the downsides of small-press publishing.

Click to expand...

It might be better to distinguish this a bit better. Regardless of what their orientation document says...

We are a traditional, small press publisher...We are a short-run print publisher. Minimum is 30 books,

Click to expand...

...this is a POD. There is nothing "traditional" about short runs and no distribution. So perhaps it might be more helpful to say "such are the downsides to POD publishing."

Small presses, like us, have real print runs in the thousands, national distribution, national reviews, top notch editing and cover design. Many small presses produce fabulous literature and have their books on store shelves. Small presses' titles are listed with Ingram and B&T and every other wholesale distributor, regardless of the required discounts because we have to play the game in order to compete. PODs can't do that.

I hope I don't sound snarky. I just feel the need to ensure everyone understands the differences between a real small press and a POD. And I feel very sad for your experiences. Here's to making your next foray a successful one!

I would further distinguish between the downside of POD small press and the addition downsides of this one. Buying you own books and paying for your review copies is not standard.

inkkognito said:

You are required to buy 30 copies of your book up front and to continue buying it for the life of the book?!

Click to expand...

I just got a complaint about this.

This is not small press publishing; it's vanity publishing. Because the bottom line is that you must pay to see yourself in print.

- Victoria

inkkognito said:

Interesting thread on Whispers and Warnings on this place:

http://forums.writersweekly.com/viewtopic.php?t=8241&sid=c46c997be2eed988da3ec1d3db5145bd

You are required to buy 30 copies of your book up front and to continue buying it for the life of the book?! No free copies?

Interesting language in the section about buying other authors' books.

There's more, but you can read it for yourself.

Click to expand...

What? I've published 5+ titles with THB and have never had to purchase a book. Novels, short stories and novellas, and never had any obligation of any sort. (The most recent this past September)

Much as it irks me to disagree (respectfully, natch), THB is in no wise a vanity press. I sold books to them in 2002 and 2003. At no time was I required to make any sort of payment or to buy anything, including books.

I bought books to sell myself alongside the publisher's admittedly disappointing efforts to kickstart a distribution network. I have made money on the books I sold.

Vanity press? No.

But it is possible this policy has changed between that time and the current policy.

Deb, I'm sorry to disagree, if a publisher requires authors to reach into their wallets in order to see themselves in print--whether in the form of an upfront fee, or purchases after printing--it is a vanity press. Contractually requiring authors to buy their own books is back-end vanity publishing.

I know that Treble Heart didn't start out to be a vanity publisher. But by adding a purchase requirement to its contract, it has become one.

- Victoria

victoriastrauss said:

Deb, I'm sorry to disagree, if a publisher requires authors to reach into their wallets in order to see themselves in print--whether in the form of an upfront fee, or purchases after printing--it is a vanity press. Contractually requiring authors to buy their own books is back-end vanity publishing.

I know that Treble Heart didn't start out to be a vanity publisher. But by adding a purchase requirement to its contract, it has become one.

- Victoria

Click to expand...

I am going to email the publisher and ask --I don't see this requirement in the online contract.

If there is such a requirement I will re-think my opinion. As of now, I agree with Deb--THB is not a vanity pub.

veinglory said:

But it is possible this policy has changed between that time and the current policy.

Click to expand...

Yes, absolutely. During the time I was associated with THB, everything tightened up dramatically. Review copies were being sent when my first novel was contracted, but not by the time of release of my second. By the time I was ready to consider sending THB a new MS, the requirement of a marketing plan, to be sent with the submission package, made me decide not to seek further publication with them.

I am a writer of Christian romance, with two kids, a husband, and a day job...I couldn't see becoming an internet marketing guru besides, and have anything left of energy or ability for my vital commitments.

I won't comment on your post, Victoria, because I already discussed my experience and my take on this pub's business model. Contractual items change from one year to the next, with many publishers, if my friends' comments are accurate.

Like inspiewriter, no money changed hands other than book purchases, and those were my decision, in quantities I decided upon, on my timing and mine alone.

According to Lee Emory, the 30-copy minimum is for the small press print-run of books she orders. Her company does not do POD, instead they order the small print-runs.

POD can, and often is, used for short runs. If you're only going to print 30 books at a time, POD would be the most cost-effective method.

- Victoria

Gah. This would be much clearer if we could refer to it as digital printing. POD is a business plan that involves far more than mere digital printing, and this creates a lot of confusion - much of it to the advantage of the POD business plan publisher.

Good suggestion, Lynn--you're absolutely right.

- Victoria

More trouble for THB. Lee Emory is quite ill and her p-dates are way behind schedule. She does have an escape clause in her contract that releases the author if the book doesn't come out on time. She demands an exclusive for submissions, which seems a bit silly for a short-run press. No press should require authors to buy copies.

THB touts itself as being a Christian-based press. In my web surfing for Christian publishers, I find a lot of them are vanity or co-op. Some require that you join a Christian website that lists book pitches. Supposedly, the publishers peruse this website often to look for viable manuscripts. There's a hefty fee involved.

Chiming in on this--yes, Lee is ill and I don't know what her schedule looks like. Her MountainView division is the Christian line.

You are right that there seem to be a lot of Christian pubs who are subsidy or vanity presses, but Lee's company is not one of them. I have published many titles with MountainView and have never been required to buy copies or anything. It's a small press, not a subsidy pub.

The service you mention (I think there are 2 of them) claims to showcase manuscripts for editors, but as we all know, editors have their own huge slush piles to wade through and don't have time to also check websites. From what I hear the few offers made to writers through these services have been for small press or subsidy publishers. There is no need to pay for this type service, your money is better spent going to a writer's conference and meeting an editor face-to-face.