Motivation-Response Unit in Scene vs. Sequel

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zornhau

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I agree to an extent. However, many of us learn grammar formally, and then use it on the fly. I think you can approach MRUs the same way - I did. (Ask me in a couple of years and I'll tell you whether it worked for me.)

This is a lot like martial arts: if you think about the techniques while in the thick of it, they tend not to work. However, you still have to learn the techniques to internalise them.

Unlike the martial arts, you can pick up many of the technical aspects of fiction just by reading fiction. However, even if you write "intuatively", you still have a theory of writing, it's just that you've not articulated it.

The danger of such an approach - I think - is that you may well write the same novel again and again because it "feels right", without questioning your assumptions. (Of course, the danger of an analytical approach is that you may write mechanically without verve).
 

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Clone Fiction

"However, even if you write 'intuitively,' you still have a theory of writing, it's just that you've not articulated it. "--zornhau

Thanks for saying this. I thought I disagreed, which I will explain, but the more I think about it, the more I think my way of writing could be called a theory, though I would hate to saddle anyone else with such an inefficient method. Method is a better word.

I am very much a beginning novelist feeling my way. The first thing I learned was that I cannot follow an outline. Outlines are anti-intuitive. I do not condemn them, they just don't work for me.

I do know more or less how my story will end, that is, the answer to the story question, when I begin it, but I am never quite sure if I am beginning it in the right place. I love the middles, the place where most of the good stuff happens. Middles are like visiting new places, meeting new people, making new friends. And I know my themes.

I very much muddle through at this point, which is why I need things that will help me tighten my scenes. I guess the theory here is that I trust my intuition not to imitate itself.


"The danger of such an approach - I think - is that you may well write the same novel again and again because it "feels right", without questioning your assumptions. (Of course, the danger of an analytical approach is that you may write mechanically without verve)" zornhau


With my method, write first, analyze second, there is little danger of repetition. I am in the middle of writing three novels and the form of each is quite different. Each novel has a different story question, and the characters are constantly growing (except when they meet untimely ends. ;) ). If I were capable of formulating a theory it would be to write the story the way it needs to be told; then do what needs to be done to make it interesting to other people.

Of course, I may never succeed at this. But I think that great cooks frequently do not follow recipes, and neither should witers. I know that the best poems have their aha! moment, so why not a novel?
 

zornhau

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Diviner said:
If I were capable of formulating a theory it would be to write the story the way it needs to be told; then do what needs to be done to make it interesting to other people.

Of course, I may never succeed at this. But I think that great cooks frequently do not follow recipes, and neither should witers. I know that the best poems have their aha! moment, so why not a novel?

What makes the story need to be told? Answer that, and you have your theory in a nutshell. Character and setting perhaps?

(BTW A structured approach has it's aha! moments too, just that they happen at different stages as you look at the overall novel and make new connections and twists. In some ways, writing from outlining is more organic and wholistic than writing from the inside since you can engage with the entire novel.

Also, if outlining is detailed enough, it is writing from the inside, just without wasting time on language and imagery until you're sure it's needed.

But, as you imply, the proof is in the pudding. Let's compare notes when/if I'm published.)
 

maestrowork

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I have an idea. Why don't we post a snippet of our current WIP, which we wrote without thinking of MRUs, etc. and see if the theory/analysis work on them, even though we didn't think about MRUs? Put the theory to the test.

Just a thought.
 

zornhau

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Hunt the MRU!

OK. It's a good suggestion. I'll go first, if that's OK.
Here's a fight sequence from my WIP, about 25% of a battle scene. Ranulph is cut off and surrounded by a large army led by young Lionel Clifford, son of his arch enemy.
(For those who've just tuned in, this isn't a request for a crit - we're playing "Hunt the MRU".)

Somebody shouted a command. The knights backed away leaving Ranulph ringed by steel.
He turned slowly, deciding where to make his rush. It hardly mattered, except for form’s sake. Now the enemy had their discipline, the end was near.

A single knight stepped through the ring.

Ranulph recognised the golden armour – he’d once turned its un-runed doppelganger into so much scrap metal. “Sir Lionel Clifford – always a pleasure to see a friend from the tournament circuit.”

Sir Lionel raised a twohanded sword over his back shoulder. The sunset picked out its runes, turning them into livid scars on the smooth diamond-sectioned blade. “Save your breath, Dacre.”

Ranulph mirrored Sir Lionel’s stance, then, like a trap ball player, let Steelcutter rest on his shoulder. The blade of Sir Lionel’s twohanded sword was a foot longer than that of Ranulph’s greatsword, but that probably mattered less than the youth thought.

Ranulph dropped his voice so the other men wouldn’t hear. “Are you sure you want to do this again?”

“Last time, you had the advantage of experience. Now I have the advantage of training from Meister Gerhart Onehand.”

“Really?” Ranulph stepped into distance then aimed a simple cut at Sir Lionel’s shoulder.

Sir Lionel sidestepped, cut across his body and down at Ranulph’s outstretched hands.

But Ranulph was already twisting Steelcutter back into a hanging parry.

The runic blades met in an explosion of sparks. The two handed sword rebounded. Steelcutter windmilled around and over until its point aligned with Sir Lionel’s visor.

Ranulph drove the tip into Sir Lionel’s vision port.

As the youth recoiled and clutched at his eye, Ranulph brought Steelcutter back to his shoulder. His gaze flickered to his brothers’ remains. “You should have asked Onehand who it was that maimed him.”

Steelcutter caught Sir Lionel just under the helm. The runes cancelled each other out but the cut was perfect.

The throat guard split. Helm and head hit the cobbles with a dull clatter.

Fountaining blood, Sir Lionel’s corpse staggered back three paces then collapsed against the circle of knights.
 
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azbikergirl

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Most of the MRUs are pretty clear cut, especially in the beginning. Where they get muddy in my mind is here:

[M-UNIT]Sir Lionel sidestepped, cut across his body and down at Ranulph’s outstretched hands.

[???]But Ranulph was already twisting Steelcutter back into a hanging parry.

The runic blades met in an explosion of sparks. The two handed sword rebounded. Steelcutter windmilled around and over until its point aligned with Sir Lionel’s visor.

Ranulph already twisting started happening before the M-unit, so it's not a response to Sir Lionel sidestepping and cutting across/down.

The following paragraph gives me trouble too (in identifying MRUs). If the runic blades meeting was the result of R's parry, the 2H rebounding would be the response, right? For some reason, I keep thinking that the response of one "side of the equation" would serve as the motivation of the other, but Steelcutter windmilling is not a response to the 2H rebounding. Or, it doesn't seem to be.

Of course, I'm still trying to figure this stuff out, so bear with me if I have it fouled up. :)
 

zornhau

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Interesting. Shows how difficult it is to write authentic martial arts sequences!
Ranulph is completing the single - deceptive - move (a "krumphau") to which Sir Lionel has rashly responded. I'll have to make that clearer. I'm almost tempted to use the technical terms...





The next bit:
[M]The runic blades met in an explosion of sparks. The two handed sword rebounded. [R] {Brilliant! Ranulph worked his mighty thews such that} Steelcutter windmilled around and over until its point [M] aligned with Sir Lionel’s visor.

Since it's a fight scene, I've left most of Ranulph's R unit as implied since when you're in mid fight, your internal narrator is usually switched off or seriously lagging. (NB Just because I have a reason for this, doesn't mean that it works for the reader!)

If the runic blades meeting was the result of R's parry, the 2H rebounding would be the response, right?
In the Swain system, anything external (or externalised) to the POV character is Motivation, even if it's potentially part of another character's MRU. e.g. the sword could rebound and Sir Lionel could break down and plead, then the Gods could descend and try to pep him up, and that would all still be in Ranulph's M unit.:Guitar:

The ding-dong cause-effect structure you're describing is McKee's "Beats", which is more or less how I outline scenes (including this one).
 
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maestrowork

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Since I suggested that we post our WIP for analysis, here's an excerpt of my WIP. Note I really didn't have MRUs in mind and it's not really an action/adventure/thriller type story. So I'm interested in what we can find here.

Paul followed the creature, his eyes wide and alert. He flew between the trees and kept his eyes on the dark shifting shape weaving through the undergrowth. The boar’s grunts were soft as twigs crackled under its hooves. An owl hooted above them. Soon the woods opened on a clearing and the boar’s bristly coat shimmered in the moonlight. It stopped and listened, and as soon as it heard the burbling sounds of a nearby stream, it rambled toward its left.

As the boar drank, Paul flew high above the forest crowns and kissed the moon. Then he sank fast, reaching the top of the trees and looked around. Still no sign of Kai and Grace. He glanced at the boar, its snout still buried in the stream.

A faint light flickered within the umbrage beneath him. Paul abandoned the creature and sank to the ground. The light came through from a far distance, flickering, disappearing and reappearing between the trees and shrubs.

“Finally,” he said under his breath.

He glided through the thickets. The light disappeared briefly. As Paul approached, the tree house materialized before him in a warm glow. He squinted, then a wicked grin spread on his face. He slid into the grand oak, and in the dark, he flipped the skin of his face over his head and crossed his eyes, bugging his eyeballs further out. The wide grin on his face turned into a bloody mess of mangled flesh. He stuck out his tongue.

As he climbed up the steps to the tree house, the light from the lantern blinded him for a second.

“Boo!” he yelled.

A man’s scream echoed through the forest. In the light, the man’s face turned white. He took a step back, lost his footing and fell. Paul pulled his face down and scrambled toward the edge of the tree house.

Down below, the lantern started to fade, and in its dying light, on the soft turf crumpled a still, crooked body. The lifeless eyes of Tuang stared back at Paul.
 

Mistook

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I don't mean to log-jam, but I'd like to throw-in a bit of my WIP too. This was written "intuitively".


---------------------------//

It took her a pensive day and a half to track down Jeremy Rifkin, but when she found his crack-house in Rosemont, she blasted the deadbolt with her 38 and kicked the door in. “Everybody ****in’ freeze!”

There sat Jeremy, shirtless, wearing a goatee, holding a glass pipe. Two twelvish girls – no doubt runaways, sat Indian style by the doorway, their eyes vacant. The punk rock of Precious Wax played on the turn-table by the stairs, and from the bathroom came the sound of a little dog barking.

Adrianne shoved her gun in it’s holster and smiled, “Jay, I am so happy you finally gave me the chance to finish kicking your ***.” She marched toward him.

He dropped the pipe, stood up, and grabbed a gun off the mantle. Aiming it, he said, “Stay back, *****!”

With a swipe of her arms, she popped the gun out of his grip and bashed him in the face with it. He fell to the carpet. She stepped on his throat and grabbed him by the hair. “If I find the slightest thing wrong with that poodle, that crack pipe is going straight up your ***, and you know I’m not kidding!”

The two girls ran upstairs.

-------------------------------//
 

zornhau

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Yippee! Playtime!
A good read. The MRUs are mostly pretty clear, though some of the M's are quite long compared to, say, an action sequence. IMHO, Swain would say that the 1st MRU is the wrong way around, or possibly contains two garbled MRUs.

Thanks for sharing!
Z
[R] Paul followed the creature, his eyes wide and alert. He flew between the trees and kept his eyes on the [Misplaced M- should swap with 1st R] dark shifting shape weaving through the undergrowth. [M]The boar’s grunts were soft as twigs crackled under its hooves. An owl hooted above them. Soon the woods opened on a clearing and the boar’s bristly coat shimmered in the moonlight. It stopped and listened, and as soon as it heard the burbling sounds of a nearby stream, it rambled toward its left.

As the boar drank, [R]Paul flew high above the forest crowns and kissed the moon. Then he sank fast, reaching the top of the trees and looked around. [M]Still no sign of Kai and Grace. [R]He glanced at the boar, [M]its snout still buried in the stream.

A faint light flickered within the umbrage beneath him.[R] Paul abandoned the creature and sank to the ground. [M]The light came through from a far distance, flickering, disappearing and reappearing between the trees and shrubs.

[R] “Finally,” he said under his breath.

He glided through the thickets. [M]The light disappeared briefly. As [R] Paul approached, [M]the tree house materialized before him in a warm glow. [R] He squinted, [implied M - an idea pops into his head] then a [R] wicked grin spread on his face. He slid into the grand oak, and in the dark, he flipped the skin of his face over his head and crossed his eyes, bugging his eyeballs further out. The wide grin on his face turned into a bloody mess of mangled flesh. He stuck out his tongue.

As he climbed up the steps to the tree house,[M] the light from the lantern blinded him for a second.

[R] “Boo!” he yelled.

[M] A man’s scream echoed through the forest. In the light, the man’s face turned white. He took a step back, lost his footing and fell. [R] Paul pulled his face down and scrambled toward the edge of the tree house.

[M] Down below, the lantern started to fade, and in its dying light, on the soft turf crumpled a still, crooked body. The lifeless eyes of Tuang stared back at Paul.
 

zornhau

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All very, very clear MRUs. (A nice clear style as well). I think your Adrianne would get on with my Sir Ranulph...
Thanks for sharing
Z

[TRANSITION]It took her a pensive day and a half to track down Jeremy Rifkin, but when she [M] found his crack-house in Rosemont, [R] she blasted the deadbolt with her 38 and kicked the door in. “Everybody ****in’ freeze!”[END TRANSITION]

[M]There sat Jeremy, shirtless, wearing a goatee, holding a glass pipe. Two twelvish girls – no doubt runaways, sat Indian style by the doorway, their eyes vacant. The punk rock of Precious Wax played on the turn-table by the stairs, and from the bathroom came the sound of a little dog barking.

[R]Adrianne shoved her gun in it’s holster and smiled, “Jay, I am so happy you finally gave me the chance to finish kicking your ***.” She marched toward him.

[M]He dropped the pipe, stood up, and grabbed a gun off the mantle. Aiming it, he said, “Stay back, *****!”

[R]With a swipe of her arms, she popped the gun out of his grip and bashed him in the face with it. [M]He fell to the carpet. [R]She stepped on his throat and grabbed him by the hair. “If I find the slightest thing wrong with that poodle, that crack pipe is going straight up your ***, and you know I’m not kidding!”

[M]The two girls ran upstairs.
 

maestrowork

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Cool. I deliberately did not want to post an action sequence or a scene that contained obvious MRUs. The first MRU is not garbled because the passage is taken out of context. The first "R" would respond to an previous "M." The first "M" in this passage is long -- a sequence of observation about the boar.

Good analysis.


Q: in Mistook's passage, why did you say "The two girls ran upstair" is a Motivation?


C'mon guys, let's play some more.
 

zornhau

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maestrowork said:
Cool. I deliberately did not want to post an action sequence or a scene that contained obvious MRUs. The first MRU is not garbled because the passage is taken out of context. The first "R" would respond to an previous "M." The first "M" in this passage is long -- a sequence of observation about the boar.
maestrowork said:

Good analysis.

Q: in Mistook's passage, why did you say "The two girls ran upstair" is a Motivation?

C'mon guys, let's play some more.


:box: OK.

The girls? Because they were external to the Protag. She might not have cared about them, but their actions provided situational information, e.g. that the ground floor was now clear, but that there was an end of level bad guy on the 1st floor. Depends on the protag.

Your opening MRU probably had too much description in the R (by Swain standards, that is - I make no claims about my own authority here!).

I think this shows that MRUs are a comfortable way to write - something you can learn, but don't normally have to think about. Certainly, examples of bad - or hard to read - writing I've seen in the past usually, on inspection, turn out to violate the MRU structure.

However, it does not follow that good writing naturally uses MRUs. Does anybody have any examples of MRU-free text?

It also occurs to me that all the examples we've parsed have been two handers, so that the Beats all map to Ms or Rs. It would be interesting to try a more complex example - any volunteers?
 

maestrowork

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However, it does not follow that good writing naturally uses MRUs. Does anybody have any examples of MRU-free text?

I think popular fiction by nature follows MRUs (even if the writers and readers don't recognize them), at least most of the time. The whole motivation/wants - action - consequence thing is prevalent in popular fiction. Literary fiction, on the other hand, could go on for pages without anything happening. It could be a 10-page observation of a curtain, that doesn't necesarily lead to any response.

I don't agree with Swain's point about description and brevity. It's about pace. Some passages are slower with more descriptions, and some short and punchy.

In fact, I would even go further to say that in my passage, the MRUs don't really start until Paul questions where Kai and Grace are. The whole boar scene really has no clear MRUs.
 

zornhau

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maestrowork said:
In fact, I would even go further to say that in my passage, the MRUs don't really start until Paul questions where Kai and Grace are. The whole boar scene really has no clear MRUs.

The character follows a boar, reacting to its movements, so technically he is in an MRU chain at that point, but a non-essential one. The essential stuff kicks off where you indicate.

Agree with your other remarks.
 

Writing Again

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One of the problems with writing a fight sequence, as with writing many things -- You are writing for the enlightened, and the ignorant and for those who "know just enough."

Fighting is not a take turns kind of game -- It is ongoing and forward moving. An experienced fighter does not just react to what is happening but also to what is going to happen or may happen.

Two little kids will exchange blows. Joe hits Tom then Tom hits Joe.

Later Joe hits Tom; Tom blocks and simultaneously sends a punch sailing back.

An experienced fitghter knows when they throw a blow that it may be blocked, knows it can only be blocked in certain ways, and knows that the opponant may send an immediate return: An experienced fighter is therefore already blocking a blow that has not yet been fired and may never be.

An inexperienced fighter may even watch a fight and not realize the participants are not "taking turns" but are seeking an advantage.

Strictly turn based fighting such as MRU's would depict would not leave me with the impression I was watching experienced fighters, but rather that I was watching a couple of amateurs.
 

azbikergirl

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Here's a snippet from my WIP where the MC is doing some internal processing. I'd never heard of MRUs when I wrote this.

"My brother thinks the Rune Solver's a noble," White Shirt said. "I think he's a scholar. What do you think?"
Couldn't they find something else to talk about? "If it's not a nobleman, it should be." [this is Gavin speaking]
"Why'd you say that? Someone smart enough to solve the runes is smart enough to be king," White Shirt said.
Gavin shook his head and lifted his tankard for a long draw. Arguing with these two was pointless. It wouldn't change anything. He was a commoner who could barely read. What business did he have becoming king?
"Nobles are learned -- and well-spoken," Gray Shirt said. "What about land holdin's and rents and such? A king's got to know all that crap."
Gavin belched loudly and said, "And he should have good manners."
Gray Shirt was right. Gavin considered simply not solving any more runes. So what if they taunted him, whispering in his head all day and night? Eventually he would learn to ignore them and be done with it. But the problem would not go away, and he knew it. For most of his life, he'd resisted the allure of the cave, ignored the call to duty that haunted his dreams. The runes had troubled him since he was a boy. No longer could a day go by without the damned things ruling his thoughts.
Besides, Thendylath needed a king. Highwaymen and monsters made the lands between the cities unsafe for anyone unescorted by a hired sword. Last week, a beyonder entered the realm of men in plain view -- in the middle of the market.
And the people. In every city he'd visited, townsfolk gathered and gossiped and wondered about the Rune Solver. They wanted a king. Soon, news that the third rune had been solved would spread like blush across a virgin's face. Gavin couldn't take that away from them.
But even if he took the throne, he didn't have a king's elegance or air of authority. He knew nothing about taxes and land holdings. Hell, he didn't even know which fork to use. The king needed to be someone like... He took in a sharp breath. "Edan!" He snapped his fingers. Yes! Why hadn't he thought of it before?
"Who's Edan?" Gray Shirt asked. Both men watched him curiously.
"Uh, just a friend," he muttered. Just a friend who happened to be the Lordover Lalorian's son. Edan had the upbringing and the noble bloodline a king needed. Good, kind person, generous nature, dashing and all that. Edan Dawnpiper would make an excellent king for Thendylath. The people would rejoice. Yes, Edan should be the king.
 
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zornhau

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Writing Again said:
One of the problems with writing a fight sequence, as with writing many things -- You are writing for the enlightened, and the ignorant and for those who "know just enough."
Writing Again said:

Fighting is not a take turns kind of game -- It is ongoing and forward moving. An experienced fighter does not just react to what is happening but also to what is going to happen or may happen.

Two little kids will exchange blows. Joe hits Tom then Tom hits Joe.

Later Joe hits Tom; Tom blocks and simultaneously sends a punch sailing back.

An experienced fitghter knows when they throw a blow that it may be blocked, knows it can only be blocked in certain ways, and knows that the opponant may send an immediate return: An experienced fighter is therefore already blocking a blow that has not yet been fired and may never be.

An inexperienced fighter may even watch a fight and not realize the participants are not "taking turns" but are seeking an advantage.

Strictly turn based fighting such as MRU's would depict would not leave me with the impression I was watching experienced fighters, but rather that I was watching a couple of amateurs.


Interesting. I take it that applies to Ranulph's duel, as posted earlier? Actually that was authentic 15th Century German Longsword style. However, if you couldn't believe in it, then it failed.

As regards the technical question of MRUs in complex fights with simultaneous actions: I think it's important to distinguish between the Beats, which are what happen in the story world, and and MRUs, which are what happen from the Protag's POV.

If you take a particular guard, I react to its strengths and weaknesses and pick a particular attack. Now you know that's how I'll think, but we don't see the inside of your head, so everything you do is in my R.
:idea: But perhaps you could show me what you mean. Go on! Hack out a couple of lines of martial arts and we can all play with it.
 

zornhau

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Interesting - and intriguing, as in wanting to read on. Most of it is classic MRU, with feelings even preceding action. The big internal dialogue could probably be broken down into MRUs as well...

azbikergirl said:
[M] "My brother thinks the Rune Solver's a noble," White Shirt said. "I think he's a scholar. What do you think?"
[R] Couldn't they find something else to talk about? "If it's not a nobleman, it should be." [this is Gavin speaking]
[M] "Why'd you say that? Someone smart enough to solve the runes is smart enough to be king," White Shirt said.
[R] Gavin shook his head and lifted his tankard for a long draw. Arguing with these two was pointless. It wouldn't change anything. He was a commoner who could barely read. What business did he have becoming king?
[M]"Nobles are learned -- and well-spoken," Gray Shirt said. "What about land holdin's and rents and such? A king's got to know all that crap."
[R]Gavin belched loudly and said, "And he should have good manners."
[M]Gray Shirt was right. [R]Gavin considered simply not solving any more runes. So what if they taunted him, whispering in his head all day and night? Eventually he would learn to ignore them and be done with it. But the problem would not go away, and he knew it. For most of his life, he'd resisted the allure of the cave, ignored the call to duty that haunted his dreams. The runes had troubled him since he was a boy. No longer could a day go by without the damned things ruling his thoughts.
[M]Besides, Thendylath needed a king. Highwaymen and monsters made the lands between the cities unsafe for anyone unescorted by a hired sword. Last week, a beyonder entered the realm of men in plain view -- in the middle of the market.
And the people. In every city he'd visited, townsfolk gathered and gossiped and wondered about the Rune Solver. They wanted a king. Soon, news that the third rune had been solved would spread like blush across a virgin's face. Gavin couldn't take that away from them.
But even if he took the throne, he didn't have a king's elegance or air of authority. He knew nothing about taxes and land holdings. Hell, he didn't even know which fork to use. The king needed to be someone like... [R]He took in a sharp breath. "Edan!" He snapped his fingers. Yes! Why hadn't he thought of it before?
[M]"Who's Edan?" Gray Shirt asked. Both men watched him curiously.
[R]"Uh, just a friend," he muttered. Just a friend who happened to be the Lordover Lalorian's son. Edan had the upbringing and the noble bloodline a king needed. Good, kind person, generous nature, dashing and all that. Edan Dawnpiper would make an excellent king for Thendylath. The people would rejoice. Yes, Edan should be the king.
 

azbikergirl

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Thanks! I think I am beginning to see. I kept thinking that Ms and Rs needed to be single-sentence or maybe a couple sentences. I have big chunks of Ms and Rs. This was what confused me about using MRUs in the sequel. (The scene preceding this one showed Gavin solving a rune, and now he's mulling over what it means.)
 

zornhau

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azbikergirl said:
Thanks! I think I am beginning to see. I kept thinking that Ms and Rs needed to be single-sentence or maybe a couple sentences. I have big chunks of Ms and Rs. This was what confused me about using MRUs in the sequel. (The scene preceding this one showed Gavin solving a rune, and now he's mulling over what it means.)

I think it's to do with pacing. This Gavin bloke isn't being shot at! He can afford to have long Reaction units. The main thing is that you have a ding-dong chain of cause and effect, the character in dialogue with his world.

BTW how far through are you with this novel?
 

azbikergirl

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I'm in the home stretch :hooray: . It's on the long side, so I'm trying to whittle it down to < 120,000 words. I have about 5,500 words left to eliminate. :faint: I've already cut it by about 17,000 words!
 

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zornhau said:
The girls? Because they were external to the Protag. She might not have cared about them, but their actions provided situational information, e.g. that the ground floor was now clear, but that there was an end of level bad guy on the 1st floor. Depends on the protag.

One of my worries about that passage is that there could be somebody dangerous on the second floor. I asked myself, "Is she really so impulsive that she'd fail to think of this danger?"

The answer was yes. When her instincts take over, she doesn't worry about complications. Whether you see it as a flaw or a strength, she trusts herself to deal with whatever may happen next.

Had I extended this scene, The girls running upstairs would probably have motivated her to be aware of footfalls, and metallic clicks coming from upstairs as she went to get the dog and leave out the back door.

As it stands, after the girls run upstairs, we cut directly to Adrianne returning the kidnapped poodle to the rich widow.

WritingAgain said:
An experienced fitghter knows when they throw a blow that it may be blocked, knows it can only be blocked in certain ways, and knows that the opponant may send an immediate return: An experienced fighter is therefore already blocking a blow that has not yet been fired and may never be.

I agree. If it has any bearing on the scene I posted, I'd say Adrianne knows this Rifkin guy from high school, and knows that while he is holding the gun, he believes he's won the confrontation, especially since (we can infer) her hands are going up. He doen't realize it's possible for her to disarm him, but the move she uses is one that might be familiar to fans of the martial arts.

What she's done is grabbed the barrel with one hand, and his wrist with the other, in a crossing motion that forces his arm down, while the gun goes up, out of his grip, and becomes a pair of "brass knuckles" flying straight toward his face.

And yes, I know i'm straying way off topic. Sorry. I'm just really in love with this character. :)
 

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Mistook said:
...grabbed the barrel with one hand, and his wrist with the other, in a crossing motion that forces his arm down, while the gun goes up, out of his grip, and becomes a pair of "brass knuckles" flying straight toward his face.

Some of that detail could probably go into the text! It would also work fine as a a couple of terse MRUs.

I can never quite decide how much martial arts detail readers want. I've been discussing this with my friends off- and on-line (http://www.livejournal.com/users/zornhau/11948.html). Perhaps we should start a thread on the subject once this one's played out.
 

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zornhau said:
Interesting. I take it that applies to Ranulph's duel, as posted earlier? Actually that was authentic 15th Century German Longsword style. However, if you couldn't believe in it, then it failed.

As regards the technical question of MRUs in complex fights with simultaneous actions: I think it's important to distinguish between the Beats, which are what happen in the story world, and and MRUs, which are what happen from the Protag's POV.

If you take a particular guard, I react to its strengths and weaknesses and pick a particular attack. Now you know that's how I'll think, but we don't see the inside of your head, so everything you do is in my R.
:idea: But perhaps you could show me what you mean. Go on! Hack out a couple of lines of martial arts and we can all play with it.

My WIP does not have any fighting in it: There are, as in real life, threats, intimidations, and chases between vastly unequal opponents.

Between work, studying for my next belt rank, family and writing I don't want to take the time to write anything new.

I think Ranulph's duel shows what I mean: The attacker discovers he has already been blocked, (The hanging parry was probably slid into as a reaction without thought) in what appears on the surface to be an out of sequence move -- i.e. he did not take turn.

I also have a tendency to use fight scenes to slip in backstory...I have stretched out a "quick draw" gunfight with two shots fired that would have lasted three seconds real time into three pages.
 
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