'Bad Writing'

Dorky said:

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• Overuse of similes. So many of them. Everything is like-a-something. Let’s take a look at some of the ones I saw in the first fifteen pages!
  Something was like: a thousand fireflies, a herd of buffalo, a water balloon with a leak, an alien, duck feet, a stealthy cat, having a seizure, an angry wolf, a spent cobra, a fat man on a bicycle, crack, Whitney Houston, red lace doily, biting into a carrot, uncooked tuna, etc.
  (I actually liked the fat man on a bicycle one )

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A "spent cobra"?

No, don't tell me. I don't think I want to know.

I agree with your whole post, by the way.

kaitie said:

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But the part about that that really just ruined the book for me? The idea was so damn cool. I loved the concept. There was so much that it could have been. It was like each page was a disappointment that failed to reach my ever lowering expectations.

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I hate that! There are certain authors who I find terrible but who are (to me) so inexplicably popular that when they've used an idea it may be years before that concept opens up for other writers to use (and hopefully put to better use). Every time I look at one of their books, I think, "Another great concept bites the dust." Frustration at the waste of a good concept just adds to the irritation of bad writing, for me.

That said, I'm pretty forgiving and will keep reading a badly written book, if there are other, redeeming factors. I just finished a novel that suffered from:

• action scenes that read like stage direction from a stunt choreographer,
• repetitious dialogue,
• head-hopping galore,
• under-developed supporting characters (a stage full of cardboard cutouts),
• loose ends (characters introduced but then dropped, as if they were just flashed on stage as set-up for later appearance in a series but had nothing to do with the present story),
• two different but unrelated main action plots (the story began with the hunt for one big bad but ended with the hunt for another, only Big Bad A and Big Bad B were not related to each other at all; instead of giving short shrift to two, he should have gone in depth on one), and
• general failure to maintain horror in a horror story (though he did hit some good notes a few times).

But I kept reading because the author was doing something very interesting with his MC and I was enjoying watching him do it. He managed to portray a delusion born of trauma with fair but not excessive subtlety, with compassion, and even a step towards insight. This allowed me to enjoy reading his book, despite all I was finding wrong with it. I did wish, though, that he'd put as much thought into those other aspects of his story as into this one.

But overall, I'm in the camp that says bad writing is writing that knocks me out of the story. Good writing delivers the story and its impact. Bad writing interferes with it.

Well, there's bad writing technique, and then there's writing that's bad because of storytelling. Like there's no discernible content, or very little, or because the concept is laughably idiotic. These can overlap, of course- writers who have nothing to say run the gamut from technical experts to technically dreadful.

Also, if it wasn't trying to make me angry, and it did, it's usually an example of poor story-crafting technique.

bearilou said:

So...that gives the opinion more weight?

I'm mostly objecting to the quality of the opinion part of his discussion, I'm not arguing that the writing is or isn't better or worse, or that it will or will not stand the test of time.

'Many people think Hemingway is a good writer' to which I say 'many people thing Meyer/Brown/James is, too'. As to whether they have low standards or not, we start to get into the discussion about why their opinion is now given less weight than someone who likes Hemingway.

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It's a matter of fashions - people read some books simply because other people are reading them. There are plenty of books I've checked out only because I wanted to know what the fuss was about and some authors and marketers are brilliant about generating 'buzz'. Normally it boiled down to a good or salable concept. That certainly seems to be the case with 50 shades...

In addition most of the people I know who read that book AND thought it was good, seldom crack anything open. Often the only other book they'd read in the past decade was good old Twilight. I find that many fad books are especially popular among people who don't normally consider themselves 'readers'.

It seems that most people I know who read Twilight or 50 Shades actually (and enjoyed them) admit that the writing is awful. I can't think of anyone I've met who said "the writing is great." Everyone said "the writing is awful but I still loved it."

dangerousbill said:

(b) When the writing is convoluted or florid, and the author is saying, 'Never mind the story. Look at me, what a clever writer I am'.

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Uck, I hate it when I read prose like that. Usually you get the feeling that the author is trying to appear clever when they use phrasing that sounds contrived.
Brilliant phrasing, on the other hand, just comes off as effortless, and feels "right", rather than artificial.

CChampeau said:

Brilliant phrasing, on the other hand, just comes off as effortless, and feels "right", rather than artificial.

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I agree

muravyets said:

A "spent cobra"?

No, don't tell me. I don't think I want to know.

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If you’re curious, the line in question is:

It’s probably not as bad as you thought (but still pretty bad for other reasons, IMO)

Needless adverb —> contrived drama? Check.

Discordance between the speed of motion implied by said adverb and that by the action it modifies? Possibly.

Nonsensical verb? Check.

Prehensile tongue? Check.

Present participial phrase error, one that goes far above and beyond normal PPP errors by describing not just a regular pair/trio of physically impossible actions but instead actions that *negate* one another? Check.

Super-mundane event described with narmy rhetorical flair? Check.

The spent-cobra bit might be the best part of the sentence. But I haven't read the book so I might be missing some crucial detail—e.g., the protagonist's tongue is a toy truck with forceps.

I thought the dick metaphor I imagined was bad. The actual line managed to be worse.

Btw, I must know what this book is. Rep me?

kaitie said:

I thought the dick metaphor I imagined was bad. The actual line managed to be worse.

Btw, I must know what this book is. Rep me?

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I was curious, too. Try an internet search for the sentence in question - it showed up as the first item in the results.

Bad writing is defined by too many things to list, and most of those things would be hard to put into words anyway. I will say that when I say something is 'bad writing', the main culprit is often poor economy.

Dorky said:

I agree



If you’re curious, the line in question is:

“Instantly, my tongue lurched out and grabbed hold of the chip, recoiling into my mouth like a spent cobra.”​

It’s probably not as bad as you thought (but still pretty bad for other reasons, IMO)

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*does the google search of the line* Oh, dear. Yes, other reasons. I see what you mean. Yikes.

The next sentence of that book: "Sam quirked a less-than-amused brow ... ."

My obvious interpretation.

The Sam in the book is apparently a girl, but Google cut off before the pronoun.

SomethingOrOther said:

The next sentence of that brow: "Sam quirked a less-than-amused brow ... ."

My obvious interpretation.

The Sam in the book is apparently a girl, but Google cut off before the pronoun.

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Oh my god. I laughed so much at this image

ETA:

SomethingOrOther said:

The spent-cobra bit might be the best part of the sentence. But I haven't read the book so I might be missing some crucial detail—e.g., the protagonist's tongue is a toy truck with forceps.

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Yup, it's my favorite part as well.
The tongue is, apparently, eating things up of its own will because the FMC is stuck under a shapeshifting spell. Never mind the fact that she can control all the rest of her parts well enough (head, extra eyes, arms, massive body, etc)...

I particularly love the fact that I'm supposed to get an image of a frog snatching a bug out of the air with its awesomely fast tongue. At least, I think that's what it should be... Instead, all I can see is an awkward and slow prehensile tongue-tentacle that is moving both in and out of her mouth at the same time.

Sometimes I wonder what is bad writing and what is bad editing. EL James, for example, wrote a compelling story that millions of people clambered to buy, along with the sequels.

She told a story people wanted to read, ate up and wanted more. The purpose of writing is to communicate with readers, and she managed that in spades.

There were some flaws in construction, but I think that should have been addressed by her editors.

I read a lot of indie books that could benefit from a good editor.

If I've gotten caught up in the story, I can and do fail to notice bad writing that would drive me crazy when reading something less fascinating. I don't ignore it or pass over it; I simply don't realize it's there.

But for lesser fare, given decent grammar and punctuation, the writing characteristic that will make me craziest is verbose overwriting, when every single bloody noun or verb has to have its own entourage of modifiers.

"The tall blonde maiden, a shining vision in willow green and faded puce, rode her prancing grey horse swiftly and gracefully over the newly planted fields, just beginning to show the first signs of young green growth, that extended from the charming but isolated small cosy village all the long dusty way to the ancient unheralded city of Saint Engelmeyer of the Excruciating Headache."

To me, bad writing is writing that treats the readers like idiots.



"Oh, every other word is spelled wrong? Why should I worry? You're too thick to see I haven't bothered to proof-read. Let's face it, you can't spell either."

"There's a plot hole you could drive a truck through? Come, my slack-jawed friend, you won't notice that I've half-arsed it."

"My character's personality changes wildly without explanation? Don't worry your pretty little head about it."

"I've used every trope, cliche, and hackneyed device known to man? How will you know, dear reader, when you haven't read anything but the back of a cereal box (and that reluctantly) for years?"

"What, you don't like my info-dump? You should be glad I've taken the time to educate you, you halfwit ingrate."


Writers don't have to assume that their readers are all at the tippy-top of the IQ scale, but once they start treating them as the mental equivalent of a half-dead stick insect, Bad Writing ensues.

archerjoe said:

I was curious, too. Try an internet search for the sentence in question - it showed up as the first item in the results.

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I love the serendipity of searching. I looked for the lurching tongue (which I found), but also got this, from poet John Canaday:

My stomach lurched. The taste of rotten lemons stained my tongue.

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I love that imagery. See, I went looking for something bad and found something good. Thanks!

muravyets said:

*does the google search of the line* Oh, dear. Yes, other reasons. I see what you mean. Yikes.

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OMFG...

I don't even picture cobras even having recoiling tongues that they ever use in that manner. I'm guessing she was thinking of a frog or a chameleon?

I'm guessing the ideas behind it or good but I doubt it's something I could get through...

JKRowley said:

Sometimes I wonder what is bad writing and what is bad editing. EL James, for example, wrote a compelling story that millions of people clambered to buy, along with the sequels.

She told a story people wanted to read, ate up and wanted more. The purpose of writing is to communicate with readers, and she managed that in spades.

There were some flaws in construction, but I think that should have been addressed by her editors.

I read a lot of indie books that could benefit from a good editor.

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The only thing that really bothers me is that because she did get such stellar success right away, there's no incentive at all for her to improve her writing.

And I see that mentality in some would-be writers as well. That they are already 'good enough' as is, they just have to push it out more, when they haven't even been bothered with correcting basic spelling errors, etc.

I recently downloaded a new adult novel that I saw was getting a lot of action on Twitter. It sounded good, so I downloaded it. The spelling and grammar errors were, to be frank, APPALLING. But the story was so good, that I read the entire book. It kept me hooked in until the end. When the wrong words were used, I did my best to figure out what the author meant. She used a lot of the wrong words. As an editor, I would have pulled my hair out by the end of page two. As a reader who recognizes a good story...I LOVED it. I have heard that the author has since landed an agent because of said book. She had it professionally edited and reloaded onto Amazon. She has sold over 50,000 copies in a couple of months...most of those copies were the OLD unedited version.

I don't know what to say about bad writing. Story trumps everything has never been more true than it was with this novel.

DreamWeaver said:

"The tall blonde maiden, a shining vision in willow green and faded puce, rode her prancing grey horse swiftly and gracefully over the newly planted fields, just beginning to show the first signs of young green growth, that extended from the charming but isolated small cosy village all the long dusty way to the ancient unheralded city of Saint Engelmeyer of the Excruciating Headache."

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You should enter that in the Bulwer-Lytton contest.

KTC said:

I don't know what to say about bad writing. Story trumps everything has never been more true than it was with this novel.

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Wow, talk about an extreme case. This is further evidence that a good storyteller and a good writer aren't quite the same thing.

I think storytelling and writing are two completely different skill sets. I've been a decent writer for a long time (not great, mind you, but better than average), but I couldn't write a good story to save my life. I've had to spend a lot of time working on that element alone to get myself to a level of actually having books people might want to read.

I definitely think a person can be a fantastic storyteller without having developed the writing skills to the same degree. I'd actually say that, in my reading experience, it's pretty amazing to find someone who is really great at both. Usually one or the other is stronger.

Dorky said:

I agree



If you’re curious, the line in question is:

“Instantly, my tongue lurched out and grabbed hold of the chip, recoiling into my mouth like a spent cobra.”​

It’s probably not as bad as you thought (but still pretty bad for other reasons, IMO)

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And I thought I had a problem with needlessly flowery description

KarmaHead said:

To me, the phrase 'bad writing' when appointed to a novel or something of fiction could mean a variety of things.

What do you specifically mean when you complain about bad writing? Or is it a variant of things?

I think more importantly, would you finish a book if it was poorly written in any respect?

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For me, good story trumps all, and I usually keep going. I can easily see past grammar issues. I can see past fact error issues- unless the fact error would change the story in a major major way. Just tell me a good story!

The last book I chose not to finish, was due to the strangeness of the plot. It was like if you took every fiction book on the NYT best sellers list and used every plot from every book to tell a story. I had no idea which plot to root for and had no idea who the MC was.

Four other books that I almost put down, but didn't, were due to:
I hated the MC, or they grew to be a whiney pain in the ass
Too much telling.
Circumstances that I just couldn't believe in.
Author voice