Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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James D. Macdonald

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All of my comments here, unless explicitly marked as being about something else, should be assumed to be about novels.

-------------

So now I'll move on to an area away from novels.

Y'all know the movie The Incredibles? You know the character "Elastigirl"? She's called Elastigirl in the film -- but in the advertising, in the games, in the Happy Meals, in everywhere other than the film, she's referred to as "Mrs. Incredible."

-------------

Back to books.

Is there any fan fiction based on my own works? I don't know. I have quite deliberately never looked.
 

alaskamatt17

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Fan Fiction

I've never really had any desire to write fan fiction. The closest I've ever come to it was writing a story about a kid who brought dinosaurs back to life as a science fair project after I read Jurassic Park in second grade.

For me, the best part of writing is creating my own setting. Characters are fun to create, too, and you can't really explore the world without them, but the world is the most enjoyable part, at least for me.

But I have heard of at least one published author who got her start writing fan fiction. I can't remember her name, but I read about her back when TopDeck magazine was still in print. She started writing original fiction after an editor who liked her fan fiction contacted her. That really sounds amazing to me. It must've been some good fan fiction to get an editor to actually contact her.
 

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alaskamatt17 said:
But I have heard of at least one published author who got her start writing fan fiction. I can't remember her name, but I read about her back when TopDeck magazine was still in print. She started writing original fiction after an editor who liked her fan fiction contacted her. That really sounds amazing to me. It must've been some good fan fiction to get an editor to actually contact her.

That sounds entirely possible. Writing is writing, and good is good. And it's also true that some editors read fanfic (as their secret vice).

Way back upstream, I even said that there was nothing wrong with writing fanfic as a way of practicing your skills. The only problem comes when you publish it.

So I wouldn't recommend writing and publishing fanfic as a way to attract an editor's attention.
 

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Line By Line

Let's dip back to page 105 of this thread:


He shouldn’t have taken the shortcut.

Bahzell Bahnakson realized that the instant he heard the sounds drifting down the inky-dark cross corridor. He’d had to keep to the back ways used only by the palace servants—and far more numerous slaves—if he wanted to visit Brandark without the Guard’s knowledge, for he was too visible to come and go openly without being seen. But he shouldn’t have risked the shortcut just to avoid the more treacherous passages of the old keep.

He stood in an ill-lit hall heavy with the stink of its sparse torches (the expensive oil lamps were saved for Churnazh and his “courtiers”), and his mobile, foxlike ears strained at the faint noises. Then they flattened in recognition, and he cursed. Such sounds were none of his business, he told himself, and keeping clear of trouble was. Besides, they were far from the first screams he’d heard in Navahk . . . and there’d been nothing a prince of rival Hurgrum could do about the others, either.

He squeezed his dagger hilt, and his jaw clenched with the anger he dared not show his “hosts.” Bahzell had never considered himself squeamish, even for a hradani, but that was before his father sent him here as an envoy. As a hostage, really, Bahzell admitted grimly. Prince Bahnak’s army had crushed Navahk and its allies, yet Hurgrum was only a single city-state. She lacked the manpower to occupy her enemies’ territories, though many a hradani chieftain would have let his own realm go to ruin by trying to add the others to it.

But Bahnak was no ordinary chieftain. He knew there could be no lasting peace while Churnazh lived, yet he was wise enough to know what would happen if he dispersed his strength in piecemeal garrisons, each too weak to stand alone. He could defeat Navahk and its allies in battle; to conquer them he needed time to bind the allies his present victories had attracted to him, and he’d bought that time by tying Churnazh and his cronies up in a tangle of treaty promises, mutual defense clauses, and contingencies a Purple Lord would have been hard put to unra-vel. Half a dozen mutually suspicious hradani warlords found the task all but impossible, and to make certain they kept trying rather than resorting to more direct (and traditional) means of resolution, Bahnak had insisted on an exchange of hostages. It was simply Bahzell’s ill fortune that Navahk, as the most powerful of Hurgrum’s opponents, was entitled to a hostage from Hurgrum’s royal family.

Bahzell understood, but he wished, just this once, that he could have avoided the consequences of being Bahnak’s son. Bad enough that he was a Horse Stealer, towering head and shoulders above the tallest of the Bloody Sword tribes and instantly identifiable as an outsider. Worse that Hurgrum’s crushing victories had humiliated Navahk, which made him an instantly hated outsider. Yet both of those things were only to be expected, and Bahzell could have lived with them, if only Navahk weren’t ruled by Prince Churnazh, who not only hated Prince Bahnak (and his son), but despised them as degenerate, over-civilized weaklings, as well. His cronies and hangers-on aped their prince’s attitude and, predictably, each vied with the other to prove his contempt was deeper than any of his fellows’.

So far, Bahzell’s hostage status had kept daggers out of his back and his own sword sheathed, but no hradani was truly suited to the role of diplomat, and Bahzell had come to suspect he was even less suited than most. It might have been different somewhere else, but holding himself in check when Bloody Swords tossed out insults that would have cost a fellow Horse Stealer blood had worn his temper thin. He wondered, sometimes, if Churnazh secretly wanted him to lose control, wanted to drive Bahzell into succumbing to the Rage in order to free himself from the humiliating treaties? Or was it possible Churnazh truly believed his sneer that the Rage had gone out of Hurgrum, leaving her warriors gutless as water? It was hard to be sure of anything where the Navahkan was concerned, but two things were certain as death. He hated and despised Prince Bahnak, and his contempt for the changes Bahnak had wrought in Hurgrum was boundless.

====================


Okay, guys, everyone read that excerpt? Let's take it apart.


He shouldn’t have taken the shortcut.

Places a male in a situation, with a hint of a problem.

Bahzell Bahnakson realized that the instant he heard the sounds drifting down the inky-dark cross corridor.

Not an English name. Good thing we know (from the first paragraph) that this is a male. We have sounds, bringing in another sense, and more setting -- the shortcut has dark cross corridors. We're probably in a fantasy novel. Bet his dad's name is Bahnak.

He’d had to keep to the back ways used only by the palace servants—and far more numerous slaves—if he wanted to visit Brandark without the Guard’s knowledge, for he was too visible to come and go openly without being seen.

Okay, we're in a palace, in the back ways. There are servants here. Brandark is either a person or a place (unclear), and the Guard is a problem. Probably using too many words that begin with B as proper nouns, and "he was too visible to come and go openly without being seen" wins a "Well, duh!" award. Gives motivation for our guy to be in that shortcut, presumably a passageway in the palace.

But he shouldn’t have risked the shortcut just to avoid the more treacherous passages of the old keep.

This reinforces that we're in a shortcut, and that if we're not in the old keep itself, the old keep is probably nearby and another possible route. But if the passages of the old keep are more treacherous, isn't avoiding them the right choice?


He stood in an ill-lit hall heavy with the stink of its sparse torches (the expensive oil lamps were saved for Churnazh and his “courtiers”), and his mobile, foxlike ears strained at the faint noises.

Bringing in yet another sense (smell, this time), and a bit of personal description. Whether the ears being fox-like is literal or metaphorical we can't tell. Another character is mentioned (Churnazh) and identified as to gender. "Courtiers" in quotes implies that they aren't really courtiers. A level of tech is implied -- oil lamps and torches for light -- and a bit about the economy (expensive oil lamps).

Then they flattened in recognition, and he cursed.

Okay, the ears are literally fox-like. Human ears don't flatten in recognition. "He cursed" gets around the problem of actually saying #$#%! in a book.

Such sounds were none of his business, he told himself, and keeping clear of trouble was.

Okay, the sounds aren't the sounds of pursuit. But we're given a hint that he'll be moved from his original plans. No one tells himself that something isn't any of his business unless it actually is.


Besides, they were far from the first screams he’d heard in Navahk . . . and there’d been nothing a prince of rival Hurgrum could do about the others, either.

We're told what the sounds are. And where we are. And who our boy is -- a prince of rival Hurgrum. A bit of politics and hints of another problem.

He squeezed his dagger hilt, and his jaw clenched with the anger he dared not show his “hosts.”

Quote marks mean they're not really hosts. A bit about what weapons are expected (and given the other tech levels, and the genre, not unexpected).


Bahzell had never considered himself squeamish, even for a hradani, but that was before his father sent him here as an envoy.

Are hradani well known for lack of squeamishness? A hint of nameless perversion here -- sort of like saying that something makes an experienced homicide detective feel ill.

As a hostage, really, Bahzell admitted grimly.

Our boy's status, and how he feels about it. The "grimly" is a bit of countersinking.

Prince Bahnak’s army had crushed Navahk and its allies, yet Hurgrum was only a single city-state.

"Prince Bahnak is likely our boy Bahzell's dad. Navahk is likely a country -- but this is pretty unclear. Hurgrum is identified as "a single city-state." That tells us the political geography a bit better. City-states, ruled by princes.

She lacked the manpower to occupy her enemies’ territories, though many a hradani chieftain would have let his own realm go to ruin by trying to add the others to it.

City-states get gendered pronouns. This sentence is also pretty incoherent. The hradani apparently have chieftains. It looks like the hradani are fox-people.

But Bahnak was no ordinary chieftain.

He's apparently a Prince. And it appears that he won't let his own realm go to ruin. All this is talking about our protagonist's father, while he's pausing in a darkened corridor, listening to screams. I'm not certain this is the right place for core-dump exposition.

He knew there could be no lasting peace while Churnazh lived, yet he was wise enough to know what would happen if he dispersed his strength in piecemeal garrisons, each too weak to stand alone.

Churnazh is the rival prince from another city-state. The guy with the "courtiers."

He could defeat Navahk and its allies in battle; to conquer them he needed time to bind the allies his present victories had attracted to him, and he’d bought that time by tying Churnazh and his cronies up in a tangle of treaty promises, mutual defense clauses, and contingencies a Purple Lord would have been hard put to unravel.

What exactly a Purple Lord might be isn't clear, other than that they're apparently experts in paperwork. A distinction is made between winning a battle and conquest. Churnazh is the bad guy -- only bad guys have cronies. Bahnak is a good guy -- good guys have allies.

Half a dozen mutually suspicious hradani warlords found the task all but impossible, and to make certain they kept trying rather than resorting to more direct (and traditional) means of resolution, Bahnak had insisted on an exchange of hostages.

Back to why our hero is here. That was certainly the long way around the barn.

It was simply Bahzell’s ill fortune that Navahk, as the most powerful of Hurgrum’s opponents, was entitled to a hostage from Hurgrum’s royal family.

I'm confused. Apparently we've just been told that Churnazh is the Prince of Navahk and that Bahzell, son of the Prince of Hurgrum, is Churnazh's hostage during a pause in hostilities. Throwing an awful lot of names in the air here.

Bahzell understood, but he wished, just this once, that he could have avoided the consequences of being Bahnak’s son.

Just this once? He's Bahnak's son. I get it. I'm not certain that this entire expository lump couldn't have been deleted without leaving a hole.

Bad enough that he was a Horse Stealer, towering head and shoulders above the tallest of the Bloody Sword tribes and instantly identifiable as an outsider.

Horse Stealer appears to be a tribal name, rather than a job description. We have varying sub-races in these fox-people. We have a bit of description of our hero.


Worse that Hurgrum’s crushing victories had humiliated Navahk, which made him an instantly hated outsider.

So, he's a hostage, and the locals don't like him. But ... what's this with victories? I thought we were between battles, and we have an exchange of hostages ... this isn't making much sense.

Yet both of those things were only to be expected, and Bahzell could have lived with them, if only Navahk weren’t ruled by Prince Churnazh, who not only hated Prince Bahnak (and his son), but despised them as degenerate, over-civilized weaklings, as well.

Exposition.

His cronies and hangers-on aped their prince’s attitude and, predictably, each vied with the other to prove his contempt was deeper than any of his fellows’.

Cronies ... hangers-on ... aped. Slanted words. Those are some bad bad guys. Any chance Churnazh is just misunderstood?

So far, Bahzell’s hostage status had kept daggers out of his back and his own sword sheathed, but no hradani was truly suited to the role of diplomat, and Bahzell had come to suspect he was even less suited than most.

Are Hradani a social class, a race, or a political unit? Taller, less squeamish, and less suited to diplomatic service than others of his kind.

It might have been different somewhere else, but holding himself in check when Bloody Swords tossed out insults that would have cost a fellow Horse Stealer blood had worn his temper thin.

We have a couple of tribes, apparently.

He wondered, sometimes, if Churnazh secretly wanted him to lose control, wanted to drive Bahzell into succumbing to the Rage in order to free himself from the humiliating treaties?

The Rage? A new term. And we fall into the unfortunate fantasy novel Curse of Promiscuous Capitalization.

Or was it possible Churnazh truly believed his sneer that the Rage had gone out of Hurgrum, leaving her warriors gutless as water?

Bet not.

It was hard to be sure of anything where the Navahkan was concerned, but two things were certain as death.

All this while paused at a cross corridor stinking of torches, while listening to faint screams, while sneaking off to see Brandark (whoever he or she might be).


He hated and despised Prince Bahnak, and his contempt for the changes Bahnak had wrought in Hurgrum was boundless.

He is Churnazh. Is Hurgrum the entire region, with various city-states in it? The entire expository lump could probably have been condensed to this one sentence, and let Bahzell continue sneaking around.

Betcha a nickle that our boy Bahzell will turn aside from his original plan in order to see who's screaming, will meet a new character, and the plot will continue from there.

==========================

So, do we want to turn the page?
 

HConn

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So, do we want to turn the page?

I might turn the page. Maybe not. Truth is, I would have skimmed a lot of that info dump trying to get to something fun. If I'm near other books, I might toss this on the "finished" shelf. But I probably wouldn't drop it into my bag if the movie hasn't started yet.
 

maestrowork

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If it were the first chapter, I probably wouldn't have turned the page. I'd be bored by the expo and the B names and all those words. And why do we stop in the middle of a scene to go over all that history?

Now, if it's somewhere in the middle of the book, I might continue, given I already know the characters and all the previous scenes and why he's there. I might not mind some backstory and exposition.
 

BlueTexas

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I kept having to go back to the B-names to figure out who was where. This lost me at the first paragraph.
 

Georgiana

I'm confused

James D. Macdonald said:
But in fan fiction (and to some extent in erotica), the stories can have no legal existence. No matter how well written, they can't be published. They use trademarked/copyrighted characters without permission.

Hi there Uncle Jim. Pleased to meet you.

Would you please explain what you mean about to some extent in erotica? The fanfic is pretty obvious but I'm baffled over this one.

And on another note in the long PA thread you talked about how Ellora's Cave gets good reviews from its published authors yet I see that they offer no advances which would normally be a warning sign to me. Could you elaborate on why that is not a problem?

I have never posted anywhere where you had to stay on topic before so if my question is in the wrong place I am sorry. I'm not sure my easily digressed mind is suited to this style of board but I am hoping I can be trained.

Thanks very much for all of your useful information and the time that you spend with everyone.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Georgiana said:
Would you please explain what you mean about to some extent in erotica? The fanfic is pretty obvious but I'm baffled over this one.

If you want to be able to publish erotica in the US, oddly enough, it has to meet Canadian regulations if they're planning to export to Canada. That includes strictures against incest, and "incest" for Canadian legal purposes includes people who are only related through marriage. Your big publishers don't want their shipments of books confiscated at the Canadian border.

Also, in erotica, you can't show sexual relations between people under the age of 18. (Oddly, you can show 'em in, for example, serious YA novels, but not in erotica.)

Some other practices, or descriptions of them, may be illegal in certain jurisdictions. Publishers who regularly sell in those areas ... won't publish those stories, no matter how well they're written.

Seriously, you can do things in "literature" that you can't do in "pornography." Weird, but that's the way it works.



And on another note in the long PA thread you talked about how Ellora's Cave gets good reviews from its published authors yet I see that they offer no advances which would normally be a warning sign to me. Could you elaborate on why that is not a problem?


This isn't a problem because they manage to sell pretty well and pay decent royalties, on time.

The big cut off is between charging the author/not charging the author.

A good number of perfectly respectable small presses don't pay advances. The ones that charge money of an author, no matter how good the publisher's explanation might be, are on the other side of the line.

Ellora's Cave has proved that they do pay, and they sell to someone other than the author and the author's posse.
 
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Georgiana

Thank you

Thanks very much. That's quite interesting. I've read a little about Canadian censorship at Neil Gaiman's blog. I hadn't realized it carried through to American publishers also but then I only recently started thinking about writing an erotic novel.

That is probably not even strictly true. I started a novel called Bare Minimum about a girl who decides she's had it living in a world with double standards and she going to go out and act like this guy friend of hers and have a one night stand. She gives up all her normal criteria and sticks with bare minimum standards, ie, he has to not have a mustache and he has to agree to use a condom.

Over the course of the book she realizes with each attempt that she really does have much more stringent requirements and she adds more and more to her bare minimum standards until she is right back where she started.

Meanwhile there is this guy who likes her but thinks she is behaving like a perfect little idiot and by the end she is very attracted to him. It's meant to be a romantic comedy. (I write screenplays and I have no idea if that is a proper term for novels but I think you will know what I mean.)

That's my very basic outline. I started it for NaNoWriMo and quit when this terribly annoying neurological condition I have suddenly got worse and I lost the ability to sit and write 2000 words a day. Plus I landed a weekly entertainment column that is taking all my time and energy.

I have been thinking about working on this book again but I find I want the scenes to be much spicer than I originally meant them to be. Maybe my character really does want to sleep with these guys before deciding they are no good.

So I got to thinking maybe it would be nice if I found a publisher who would like something much stronger than the romance publisher I originally had in mind and started looking into erotic markets.

The more I think about it though the more I suspect it is just another form of cat vacuuming. If I am researching and reading great big whacking long threads about writing and publishing I'm not writing am I? At least not fiction, I am doing very well with my weekly column.

I suspect what I should do is just write the first draft and let it be as erotic as it wants to be and then decide later whether or not to cut a bunch of it out.
 

James D. Macdonald

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Georgiana said:
I suspect what I should do is just write the first draft and let it be as erotic as it wants to be and then decide later whether or not to cut a bunch of it out.

You suspect right.

Write the book, then see which publishers would be a fit for the book.

If you're doing underage-girls-n-goats, with throbbing descriptions of bodily fluids splashing about, well, finding a publisher might be a bit tough. But what you describe sounds perfectly publishable.
 

Georgiana

No underage girls

And the only goat so far is one that escapes and is found wandering by the side of road. I would call him a plot point, not a character, thank goodness.

I wrote 500 words today. It's nowhere near your suggested output but it's good enough to make me happy. Thank you for the advice. It was quite useful.
 

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James D. Macdonald said:
So, do we want to turn the page?
No.

I had trouble just getting through the short excerpt. Way too much exposition in too short a space for me. It feels like the author is trying to inject the backstory directly into the reader's brain as fast as possible, and that doesn't mix well with the action opening.

If I'm creeping through the dimly lit back passages, hoping not to be spotted, what's going to be running through my head is "Bahzell creep... Bahzell creep... Bahzell creep..." (sorry). I'm not going to be reliving the high points of my entire life up until that moment.

As a reader I want to know why he's lurking around down there, but I don't want a history lesson right in the middle of the action. Give it to me in dribbles throughout the book. Show it to me in dialogue. Stick it in a prologue, where I will read it without wishing Bahzell would just get on with it already and get to the end of the hallway.

If you must dump all that history in my lap at once, write a chapter that begins with the line "Bahzell remembered the day he'd learned..." instead of interrupting what should be a hooky beginning.

No. I wouldn't turn the page. In fact, I'd probably take note of the author's name and the copyright date. If the author was lucky, I'd learn the book was published in 1995 or earlier and look for something more recent. If I was in a foul mood, I'd just remember the name as one not to bother with on my next trip to the store.

Harsh? Yeah. I didn't like it.
 
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James D. Macdonald

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So, delete everything from "He squeezed his dagger hilt..." through "...wrought in Hurgrum was boundless"?

Yeah, I could go with that. That was one heck of an expository lump filling the first two pages -- and it wasn't very gracefully written, either.

That one would be a "back on the shelf" for me. Or I might try the Page 147 Test. That's where you turn to page 147 to see if it's gotten any better.
 

maestrowork

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(Quickly, Ray flips to page 147 of his own book to see if it would ever pass the test... to his relief, it's the page where the giant pig eats its own liver. That will do. That will do.)
 

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maestrowork said:
(Quickly, Ray flips to page 147 of his own book to see if it would ever pass the test... to his relief, it's the page where the giant pig eats its own liver. That will do. That will do.)

"That'll do, Pig. That'll do."

I think the movie Babe has now been ruined for me, forever...
 

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Flip, flip . . .

Page 147

Bahzell pricked up his ears. The mysterious sounds that reached him from dank, unseen rooms had changed, almost imperceptibly. Muffled voices spoke in slightly less familiar accents, accents difficult to interpret for one accustomed to the easy speech of one's fellow hradani back home in Hurgrum. The echoes sounded a bit different: the chambers here must have been constructed of a different kind of stone, perhaps quarried locally but no doubt hauled by unwilling captives to their current site, under the Guard's cruel lash. The very air, foul as it was, carried a changed scent to Bahzell's sensitive nostrils.

Slowly it dawned on him. I must be nearing the end of the corridor.

I'm so glad I took the shortcut.
 

E.G. Gammon

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Hmm, the Page 147 Test. That's interesting. I've never heard of it. I wonder if there is a way to estimate where in your manuscript page 147 will be, so that you can make sure something incredible happens then and around there.
 

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I wonder if there is a way to estimate where in your manuscript page 147 will be, so that you can make sure something incredible happens then and around there.
I expect the thing to do is make sure something incredible happens on just about EVERY page...
 

Andrew Jameson

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EGGammon said:
Hmm, the Page 147 Test. That's interesting. I've never heard of it. I wonder if there is a way to estimate where in your manuscript page 147 will be, so that you can make sure something incredible happens then and around there.
Seriously, I do the "page 147 test" all the time. When I pick up a novel in the bookstore that looks promising, I don't read the first page, because I figure the author's put on his best Sunday-go-to-meetin' clothes there at the beginning. I flip to a random page somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 the way through (which would be just... about... page 147) and start reading. I figure that's far enough along that the author has changed into his everyday clothes, but not so far along that it spoils the plot for me.

And I read a couple paragraphs. If it's boring or confusing, I'll riffle a few pages one way or another and continue reading. If that's boring or confusing, the book goes back on the shelf. If it hooks me, the book travels back home in my hands.

I have no idea how many other people actually do this. But it goes to show: that beautifully crafted opening scene in your novel? Won't hook me. But a beautifully crafted page 147 will.
 

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Yeah, that's true. Somehow, I want something big to happen around that page, but there's also a part of me that doesn't. I wonder how many people have ruined a book for themselves by looking ahead. In the first novel of my novel series, there are a couple major character deaths, and revelations throughout the whole book. As much as I hope page 147 is good, I also hope it isn't so good that it spoils something, like a murder scene for instance. I know that if I already know what's going to happen in a book, I don't read it. I'm going a little off topic here, but something that turns me away from a book is the opening chapter starting in media res (in the middle of the action) and then at the end of that chapter it says "20 years earlier" or something. That is a book I won't finish. I hate knowing what's going to happen.
 
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