the SOB POV... do editors even know?

Status
Not open for further replies.

A.REX

Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 26, 2005
Messages
87
Reaction score
3
Just got back another depressingly HACKED manuscript with the words POV marked on it...
WHAT?! I thought I had it figured out this time! Really, I was pretty sure I was a POV genius, and felt confident enough to give others in my writer's group advice... but now I'm wondering, do I need to redo POV ? and maybe read a book about this beast that I'm beginning to think even the edi-lords don't even know about?

Down with the evil edi-lords!
biggrin.gif
 

crosseyed reader

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 7, 2006
Messages
87
Reaction score
15
the SOB POV... do editors even know?
Oh yes, they most certainly do. If your ms came back marked up, it would appear that you need some help in understanding POV. Without seeing your work, it's impossible to comment as to your particular case.
 

dragonjax

I write stuff and break boards.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
3,421
Reaction score
370
Age
53
Location
New Yawk
Website
www.jackiekessler.com
Keeping in POV is one of the hardest aspects of writing, in my opinion--especially in close third person. It's so damn easy to slip into omniscient narrator!
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,933
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
Give it a second look. If you are satisfied you have it right submit somewhere else. If you sub back to the 'hacker' you now know what kind of POV to send him/her. Being right is nowhere as important as getting published IMHO.
 

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!
Kind Benefactor
Absolute Sage
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
9,907
Reaction score
1,834
Location
Hiding in my writing cave
Website
www.cathyclamp.com
I'm sorry... :( Yeah, they really DO know POV. What you might consider is that certain parts might not be wrong, so much as confusing. I had this happen with our last book. I didn't switch point of views, but a few times it was unclear. Often, it's only a word here or there that will make all the difference. If the editor hacked it up, then s/he probably offered some suggestions on what his/her concerns were.


Take a deep breath, set it aside for a week (or longer) and then look at it again objectively. You might notice right off the bat what the issue is.

Good luck!
 

KAP

Hangin' with the gargies
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jan 10, 2006
Messages
525
Reaction score
131
Location
Tucson
Website
keithpyeatt.com
Monica Wood's "Description," part of the Elements of Fiction Writing Series, has an excellent section on POV, among other excellent sections.

POV is BIG. Fun to learn, fun to play with, and powerful.
And occasionally frustrating.
 

Sage

Currently titleless
Staff member
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Oct 15, 2005
Messages
64,561
Reaction score
22,365
Age
43
Location
Cheering you all on!
Sometimes POV problems can be sneaky. You think it's obvious that the non-POV character is annoyed, so you say from your MC's POV that the other character is annoyed. But really, unless the MC is psychic, he/she can only know that the other character seems annoyed (or demonstrate how exactly that other character appears that way & let the reader figure it out).

Then you have it the other way (this is the one that tricks me the most). The POV character's blue eyes tear up. But while that character can feel their eyes tearing up AND know that their eyes are blue, when they process that they're about to burst into tears, they aren't thinking about the color of their eyes. Since the POV character isn't seeing the action of his eyes tearing up, why would the description include a visual detail? Unless he's scrutinizing his own looks (for a date or something), why would he ever think about them? Kinda annoying, but it makes sense when you think about it. And yet, it's so easy to add that little bit of description & not think about it.
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
A rule of procedure I always (at least try) to follow in reacting to critique: If something bothers a reader, there's probably something wrong. It may not be exactly what the reader/critiquer/editor says it is, but it is likely a symptom of something in the writing that could be handled better. Look hard at the thing and see if you can't discover a clearer way of doing it.

caw.
 

Julie Worth

What? I have a title?
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
5,198
Reaction score
915
Location
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ordinary readers don’t care about POV slips, and many best-selling writers don’t seem to care much either, judging by how often they do it. The question is: does it hurt the story? If the answer is no, the problem is academic.



 

Pike

Chivalry ain't dead
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 22, 2005
Messages
2,428
Reaction score
741
Location
Home. Work. Home. You know the drill.
Website
www.spikeo.bravejournal.com
Sage said:
Sometimes POV problems can be sneaky. You think it's obvious that the non-POV character is annoyed, so you say from your MC's POV that the other character is annoyed. But really, unless the MC is psychic, he/she can only know that the other character seems annoyed (or demonstrate how exactly that other character appears that way & let the reader figure it out).

Then you have it the other way (this is the one that tricks me the most). The POV character's blue eyes tear up. But while that character can feel their eyes tearing up AND know that their eyes are blue, when they process that they're about to burst into tears, they aren't thinking about the color of their eyes. Since the POV character isn't seeing the action of his eyes tearing up, why would the description include a visual detail? Unless he's scrutinizing his own looks (for a date or something), why would he ever think about them? Kinda annoying, but it makes sense when you think about it. And yet, it's so easy to add that little bit of description & not think about it.

Agreed! I just looked back over my current WIP and in one scene found a stupid, simple sentence where the POV switched, and subtly so. I never caught it during the four hundred edits and read throughs but it was there. POV's can be difficult to maintain.
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,652
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
Post your passage and we'll see where you have a POV problem. Sometimes they're very subtle, but they're there.
 

scribbler1382

Write For You, Edit For The Reader
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Messages
1,429
Reaction score
161
Location
Toronto
Website
www.soderstrom.ca
Julie Worth said:
many best-selling writers don’t seem to care much either, judging by how often they do it.

You're right about that. I picked up P.D. James' latest book and tried to read it but she jumped POV about 4 times in the first 5 pages. I couldn't go on, but I read like a writer so that will probably skew the results.
 

Simon Woodhouse

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2006
Messages
322
Reaction score
30
Location
New Zealand
Website
www.simonwoodhouse.com
Not so long ago I read Battle Axe by Sara Douglas. I'm not a fan of Fantasy novels, but I thought I'd give it a go just to see what I was missing, if anything.

The POV changes came thick and fast, and got worse as the book went on. Towards the end I counted four in one paragraph. Worse than that though, was the scene near the end that played out through one POV, then repeated itself from another viewpoint straight afterwards. And there was no line break in between, nothing to give the reader a hint as to what had happen.

I was flabbergasted.
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
Just a couple of nights ago I finished P.D. James's "Death of an Expert Witness". It's the third of her novels I've read over the last decade or so. I read a fair number of mysteries, and I have dipped back into her work from time to time because she has this rep of being such a genius at it.

Sorry. Ain't reading any more of them. Scribbler's comments are exactly on target. I kept having to go back from paragraph to paragraph to make sure I knew whose POV I was getting, and it is tedious and unnecessary. She is fond of using both dialogue and internal thought for info-dumps, and also of concealing information from the reader that the characters clearly know. It's clumsy and clunky work, and the novels I've read could easily be trimmed by 30% by any decent editor.

caw.
 

aruna

On a wing and a prayer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
12,862
Reaction score
2,846
Location
A Small Town in Germany
Website
www.sharonmaas.co.uk
I don't think I was nearly as observant of POV changes sneaking into my early books as I am now; now I can spot them a mile away and I'm sure I'd find several in those books! They got published anyway; if you;ve got an excellent story editors and readers won't mind; only other writers!
Now, partly I;m sure due to this site and simply through improving as a writer over the years, I'm far stricter with myself and watch for it like a hawk.
 

FolkloreFanatic

The Arthurian Addict.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
270
Reaction score
33
Location
United States
Website
folklorefanatic.blogspot.com
Just for clarity's sake, Sage, since you brought up some really good points, are you talking about 1st-person POv, 3rd-person limited, etc?


POV is my biggest problem. Always. Without a doubt.
 

popmuze

Last of a Dying Breed
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 31, 2005
Messages
2,597
Reaction score
181
Location
Nowhere, man
I'm wondering if this fits into the POV discussion.

During the course of my novel, which is narrated by one of the main characters, there are a few scenes along with dialogue that the narrator couldn't have possibly witnessed, and certainly not remembered verbatim.

But since the novel is the life story of the two other main characters, as told by the narrator, I assumed the reader would think he'd probably had long talks with each character about their lives before he started writing the book. He might also have had access to letters, diaries, other witnesses.


Does that make sense?
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
popmuze said:
I'm wondering if this fits into the POV discussion.

During the course of my novel, which is narrated by one of the main characters, there are a few scenes along with dialogue that the narrator couldn't have possibly witnessed, and certainly not remembered verbatim.

But since the novel is the life story of the two other main characters, as told by the narrator, I assumed the reader would think he'd probably had long talks with each character about their lives before he started writing the book. He might also have had access to letters, diaries, other witnesses.


Does that make sense?

It makes sense, but I if you're going to use the devices described in your last paragraph, you need to make that clear to the reader. Otherwise, you'll appear to have your POV out of control.

caw.
 

maestrowork

Fear the Death Ray
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 11, 2005
Messages
43,746
Reaction score
8,652
Location
Los Angeles
Website
www.amazon.com
popmuze said:
I'm wondering if this fits into the POV discussion.

During the course of my novel, which is narrated by one of the main characters, there are a few scenes along with dialogue that the narrator couldn't have possibly witnessed, and certainly not remembered verbatim.

But since the novel is the life story of the two other main characters, as told by the narrator, I assumed the reader would think he'd probably had long talks with each character about their lives before he started writing the book. He might also have had access to letters, diaries, other witnesses.


Does that make sense?


That's perfectly fine if it's told in past tense and it's clear to the readers that the narrator knows that stuff through conversation, etc. That's how the Great Gatsy was narrated...

Again, like UJ said: does it work?

If your readers start asking questions like "wait a minute, how would he know?" then you need to clarify things. Otherwise, it works.
 

zornhau

Swordsman
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 21, 2005
Messages
1,491
Reaction score
167
Location
Scotland
Website
www.livejournal.com
FolkloreFanatic said:
POV is my biggest problem. Always. Without a doubt.

Care to expand on this? It seems simple to me, but then I stick to nice safe limited 3rd person. Presumably you are more ambitious?
 

Jamesaritchie

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 13, 2005
Messages
27,863
Reaction score
2,311
Julie Worth said:
Ordinary readers don’t care about POV slips, and many best-selling writers don’t seem to care much either, judging by how often they do it. The question is: does it hurt the story? If the answer is no, the problem is academic.






Many ordinary readers care very much about POV slips. With otherwise good writers, readers will overlook such slips because evrything else is done well, but believe me, many ordinary readers do notice such slips, and do care about them. It's just one of those nice sound bites to think a great many odinary readers don't notice poor POV.

The question really isn't does it hurt the story. Of course it hurts the story. The question is whether or not the rest of the story is good enough to overcome the harm? It usually isn't, especially from new writers.

Though I will say that most well-known writers get a bum rap when it comes to POV. They often know exactly what they're doing, but because it doesn't comform to a given reader's idea of what good POV is, it's called bad POV. Often it's very good POV use, and it's the parrticular reader who doesn't understand what good POV is, or can be.

Most best-selling writers are extremely good with POV, and the "mistakes" many of them make aren't mistakes at all.

Fortunately, most editors and critics do know when such writers do it right, or understand exactly why a particular POV choice is made.

There's nothing academic about POV. Editors absolutely understand what POV is, and know when the writer gets it right and wrong, and even when wrong can be right and right can be wrong.

Bad POV is one of those thing that stops many new writers from getting published, and rightly so. Get it wrong, and it will hurt the story, and editors will reject it. If you're a really good writer, you can get away with the occasional bit of head-hopping, but that's about it. And even these had better be done well. A writer who doens't understand POV, and who doesn't stay consistent within a story, isn't going to find many editors who will buy that story. And the reason they won't buy it is because huge numbers of ordinary readers do care about POV, even when they don't consciously know what POV is.
 

aruna

On a wing and a prayer
Super Member
Registered
Joined
May 14, 2005
Messages
12,862
Reaction score
2,846
Location
A Small Town in Germany
Website
www.sharonmaas.co.uk
Jamesaritchie said:
Many ordinary readers care very much about POV slips. With otherwise good writers, readers will overlook such slips because evrything else is done well, but believe me, many ordinary readers do notice such slips, and do care about them. It's just one of those nice sound bites to think a great many odinary readers don't notice poor POV.

.

I don't agree with this, James, Sure, obvious things like changing from first to third person, naturally they notice that. But, for instance, when writing in third person limited and you get a sentence like this: "... M. sat up. He hadn't known or imagined that R. had a wife." Nobody is going to notice, or care That, by the way, is a sentence from a well-known author's book. I give the author the behefit of the doubt that he knew what he was doing; but it's very easy when writing to slip momentarily into someone else's head when you're suposed to be in another. As someone said here, POV can be very sneaky.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.