All Things That Matter Press

I remember when I first joined here. I was excited because my first book was out -BUT-it was partly self-published. The entire conversation was about self-publishing and not about the book. It was a real downer. Others told me they gave up here because of all of the negativity. Yes, I could spend days responding to your comments but there are only so many hours.
What we do is stated clearly on our site. The contract is posted-unlike many places that don't bother. It is a legal document put together by lawyers. This is really not the place to get into a big legal discussion. There is nothing sinister about it. we are not trying to take advantage of authors. Some of the language is legalize-that is the nature of our world. Yes, we can cancel a contract is later we find the work was plagiarized and it is 'injurious" to us as a publisher. What the heck do you expect?
The author gets royalties on a simple formula-How much does it cost to print + the take from Amazon. The left is then divided. No, we do not distribute costs among all books-each royalty is based on each specific book.
We are not all about getting into stores-we say that up front-we are putting our efforts into internet marketing and sales. That is what we do-we follow trends and this is where we see it going. Our choice, stated clearly-nothing hidden or insidious.
And yes, you definitely implied that one should stay away from presses that do poetry or anthologies.

"They take short stories and poetry. That was a red flag for me."

Our contract is for one year. Some have 2, 3 or 7 years. This is was done so that if the author is unhappy with us they can go elsewhere. many authors complain about long contracts so you make it sound like this is something horrible.


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Make sure your book is polished and all of your typos are corrected. Manuscripts with poor spelling and grammar and/or multiple typographical will be sent back to you for correction/editing.
And this one.

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Congratulations to Lara Lyons, Nadine Laman and David Barber! There books are now in print.
They offer an editing service. Several of the books in their store were written by one of the owners of the company. There's also a page on how important it is for authors to market their books.
The above were the first comments posted If you can find a single publisher that wants ms's that are not edited and polished...What are we supposed to say-send us your crap and we'll fix?

The editing service is a separate business-if you read the site you will see that it has nothing to do with getting a book published. And as I said, with no response-we have edited all of our books and there was no cost-you are just looking for demons where there are none.

Yes, as I said, I had a typo.
So I published several of my books-I told you why-what is the issue? If the owner of Random House published a book with Random House is that horrible?

"The demand that the manuscript be error free indicates to me that there will be little to no editing, and that it's probably a straight PDF dump."

Why is this assumption made? Do you submit manuscripts filled with errors? If so, what do publishers do. This is so standard that your comment is ludicrous. We are not a pdf dump. If you want that go to Lulu.

So you see, comments started with an attack. If they were put as questions my response would have been different. You could have said, "Does the editing service cited mean you must use it to get published? Or, do you do nay editing at all? Or, why a one year contract? Instead your comments were mostly based upon assumptions that were incorrect. You came on negative just to be negative.

"I don't trust anyone who googles the net to see what people are saying about them." What the hell does that mean? Why would you not want to know what people are saying? What does that have to do with publishing?

So again, enjoy your Holiday.

Philip Harris said:

Others told me they gave up here because of all of the negativity.

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I've seen people give up on writing when they realized how difficult it was to get their books into stores without distribution and without the kind of marketing that professional publishers provide.

Yes, I could spend days responding to your comments but there are only so many hours.

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In that case, I am all the more grateful that you took time out of your busy schedule to write this lengthy post when you could have been editing manuscripts and proofreading your website.

That's devotion to duty.

And yes, you definitely implied that one should stay away from presses that do poetry or anthologies.

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I said that it's a warning sign when publishers print poetry or anthologies because there's not much of a market for these (and if a publisher isn't getting money from readers, it's usually getting money from authors instead).

It's a long way from that to saying "no one should publish poetry" - poets could always self-publish and get more than what you're giving them.

If you can find a single publisher that wants ms's that are not edited and polished...What are we supposed to say-send us your crap and we'll fix?

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From what I've seen of your webpage, you couldn't fix your own, er, work. Again, your choice of language shows what level of professionalism one can expect from your press.

The editing service is a separate business-if you read the site you will see that it has nothing to do with getting a book published. And as I said, with no response-we have edited all of our books and there was no cost-you are just looking for demons where there are none.

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All commercial publishers and small presses edit without cost to the writer.

Yes, as I said, I had a typo.

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As far as I'm concerned, the only appropriate response to the pointing out of a typo is to correct it, not to try to justify it by saying you were tired.

Enjoy your holiday as well, and I'm looking forward to more responses from you! That bumps up this thread so that anyone considering your press can find the thread easily.

Philip Harris said:

The author gets royalties on a simple formula-How much does it cost to print + the take from Amazon. The left is then divided. No, we do not distribute costs among all books-each royalty is based on each specific book.

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Cheers, Philip. With respect, that isn't what your contract states:

B. Publisher will not pay an advance to Author. Publisher agrees to pay the Author 40% of the net profits received. This amount will be the cover price minus printing costs, distribution discounts. Publisher agrees to pay the Authors 40% of the net proceeds received for all electronic copies sold off of the Publisher’s site, based upon generally accepted accounting principles.

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The bolded part indicates that you ding the author's royalties for costs that are supposed to be incurred by the publisher. It appears that you're forcing them to pay you back for the print run. How are those "costs" calculated, and what, exactly does this mean? You may be as pure as the driven snow, but this vague wording sends up a red flag to me because it's an opportunity for royalty abuse.

Any publisher concerned with their reputation takes steps to ensure their contract and business practices are beyond reproach. When there are questions, the publisher should have the walnuts to hold their feet to the fire and answer those questions in a professional manner. Getting snitty or defensive only raises more flags.

The longer you're in this business, you'll learn that word of mouth can be our strongest ally or worst nightmare. Only you can decide what people say about you. There is so much opportunity for less-than-honest publishing endeavors, that you have to expect questions becasue this forum has seen a lot of burned authors. So while the questions may seem invasive, you should be willing and able to answer them without copping an attitude.

We are not all about getting into stores-we say that up front-we are putting our efforts into internet marketing and sales. That is what we do-we follow trends and this is where we see it going. Our choice, stated clearly-nothing hidden or insidious.

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Please. This group is very savvy, so I recommend keeping the rhetoric for a less informed crowd. You aren't "about getting into stores" because you can't get into stores. PODs can't get distribution, so they don't have sales teams pitching their books to the genre buyers. It's very possible that the small presses may be relegated to online sales only and shelf space will only go to the big houses, but I think it's a bit early to declare bookstore purchasing legally dead. It's just dead to PODs and vanity. Online sales are achingly difficult because review sites are being inundated. It takes strong publicity and promotion to light a book on fire, and no amount of online book tours is going to do that. And it takes strong books to catch readers' attention. That said, as long as you're up front about the fact that your authors won't ever be on stores shelves, I can't complain. But do be honest about why.

The editing service is a separate business-if you read the site you will see that it has nothing to do with getting a book published. And as I said, with no response-we have edited all of our books and there was no cost-you are just looking for demons where there are none.

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Again, this is all about appearances. Offering editorial services under your publishing website makes you appear to be a scam. Sorry, but there's just no delicate way to put that. This forum has seen many scammy publishers pull this trick; they accept the author and then inform them they need "editing," and lo and behold! they "just happen" to have editing services. What a nice profit center. If this truly is a separate service, I recommend that you remove this from your publishing site because it makes you appear as just one of the many questionable publishing schemes out there. That, and your defensive attitude screams loudly in my ear.

So you see, comments started with an attack. If they were put as questions my response would have been different. You could have said, "Does the editing service cited mean you must use it to get published? Or, do you do nay editing at all? Or, why a one year contract? Instead your comments were mostly based upon assumptions that were incorrect. You came on negative just to be negative.

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I believe this to be a by-product of weary authors who are tired of seeing the same old story and want to ferret out the warts as quickly as possible. There isn't anything this board hasn't seen or experienced, so it might be helpful for you to consider employing a little empathy.

Philip Harris said:

What we do is stated clearly on our site. The contract is posted-unlike many places that don't bother. It is a legal document put together by lawyers. This is really not the place to get into a big legal discussion.

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No, this is a fine place to discuss publishers' and agents' contracts, because that's good information for writers. Many of us have experience in reviewing contracts; several of us (not me) are attorneys as well as writers.

Your contract is non-standard, no matter what you say. It is not a contract I would sign, or advise anyone else to sign.

Mr. Harris, I'll gladly give you the benifit of the doubt on the editing question. Then I assume you edit for grammar, punctuation, sentence structure, continuity, and story/plot arc structure. At no cost. Fine. I'm hoping you're not pushing your editing service to those who are submitting manuscripts to you. Priceless1 is correct is saying that this service should be disassociated from your pub arm completely. Set yourself up another website for that, at the very least.

What disturbs me is the cost of publication (printing, layout and cover) being held back, as though it were a service cost beforehand. Blu Phi'er has pulled this stunt, requiring that setup costs of $350 be recovered from sales before ANY royalties are paid out. Those of us who have recieved small advances, also get that tacked on to the setup fee, which is expected. But for a POD book to earn back $350--$550 before it even begins to pay out royalties to the author, is highly unlikely through internet sales alone.

I'm sorry, in this instance, I'm seeing a backdoor type of vanity publishing here. A pay-to-play after the fact. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I do wish you and yours the best holidays

With all due respect to QoS, I don't necessarily see an anthology as a red flag. It depends very much on the house & the anthology. If an sf/f/h house published an anthology of ghost stories, for example, that would not raise any suspicions. And some romance imprints have done successful anthologies.

Khazarkhum said:

With all due respect to QoS, I don't necessarily see an anthology as a red flag. It depends very much on the house & the anthology. If an sf/f/h house published an anthology of ghost stories, for example, that would not raise any suspicions. And some romance imprints have done successful anthologies.

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I agree that it depends on the house and the anthology. And, I might add, the editor. All of my short story sales have been to anthologies published by large houses. Got one coming out in April.

But I do see some other red flags. They seem to spend too much time pitching to authors and not enough to potential readers. A publisher sells to readers, not writers. I don't care if they sell POD books and/or e-books. They need a broad customer base, and that means readers. (IMO.)

Khazarkhum said:

If an sf/f/h house published an anthology of ghost stories, for example, that would not raise any suspicions. And some romance imprints have done successful anthologies.

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That's true, though many of the anthologies seem to have a famous author's name on the cover. Plus, they're stories from different writers, whereas with the vanities and micropresses it's usually a collection from a single (often unknown) writer - and that may be a tougher sell.

Good point about anthologies per se not being a red flag, though.

Oh brother...

With any luck, they'll raise people's curiosity about what we're saying here.

Maybe one or two might actually stick around and read the whole thing (both this thread and the other information available here).

One can hope.

Honestly guys, if Phil is right about one thing, it is that some of the posts here feel of the "guilty until proven innocent" variety. Just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it.

To be quite honest, you're right.

Publishers should PROVE they're ready to go. From the moment they make themselves available for any author to submit to them:

o They should have a business plan
o They should have sufficient funding up front
o They should have distribution in place
o They should have their editors identified, if not hired already
o They should have contacts with artists already to do the cover art, not rely on Photoshop and clip art
o They should have experience in the publishing field already

Wanna be publishers don't have the right to experiment with other author's books.

They should be ready to go BEFORE they ever ask for the first book.

Period.

So, yes, new publishers MUST earn our trust.

I understand what you're getting at, and as an aspiring author I have just as much a stake in this as anyone else here.

However, with all this compartmentalization going on, the dividing of us and them, writers and agents and publishers and good writers and bad writers and bad agents and good agents and good publishers and bad publishers, it is easy to lose track of the fact that most of the people in this business are decent human beings.

And decent human beings should be treated the way we ourselves would like to be treated. I've made this point before, and I can see where the "guilty till proven" innocent mentality comes from, but I think it's very easy to fall into this jaded writer mentality, which ultimately, doesn't help anyone.

The suspect publishers/agents often take offense, leave, and the conversation remains unresolved, the concerns, unaddressed. Case in point.

I am not against asking questions. But there is a difference between politely asking questions and throwing out accusations. There is a difference between asking questions and launching an inquisition. There were a number of comments made that I would consider snide (directed at Phil) but when Phil is snide back we promptly jump down his throat for being snide. It's very easy to be bold on the internet. So maybe a good litmus test would be stopping to ask ourselves if we would say what we have typed to this person's face, in exactly the manner we have typed it. I'll be honest with you - I would not be able to do that for a lot of what's been said. Not because of the what, but rather the how.

All I'm saying is, we should try to remember that we're dealing, for the most part, with human beings like ourselves. Many threads like this one degenerate just the way this one has, sooner or later. But that doesn't have to be the case.

If somebody doesn't have the experience or acumen to run a business, good intentions are useless.

BenPanced said:

If somebody doesn't have the experience or acumen to run a business, good intentions are useless.

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Agreed. I'm a decent human being but I wouldn't encourage anyone to hand over a manuscript to me, because I have no experience being a publisher. My niceness isn't going to make up for that. It may in fact make matters worse for inexperienced writers, if they believe that since I am a good person, I will treat their books professionally.

To me, the goodness or decency of a person is just not as relevant in this matter as their experience and expertise, so I don't think an amateur or wannabe publisher should get leeway because they also happen to be a nice person.

BenPanced said:

If somebody doesn't have the experience or acumen to run a business, good intentions are useless.

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I never denied it.

Queen of Swords said:

Agreed. I'm a decent human being but I wouldn't encourage anyone to hand over a manuscript to me, because I have no experience being a publisher. My niceness isn't going to make up for that. It may in fact make matters worse for inexperienced writers, if they believe that since I am a good person, I will treat their books professionally.

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Though they are in the minority, there are in fact agents and publishers out there who enter the business without any substantial experience/apprenticeship, beat the odds, and make it. Adam from Artists and Artisans (iirc) would be one example.

But I'm getting away form the point, which is really quite simple. To try to be a little more respectful. In real life, we look down on people who base their tones around how useful a person is to them. I don't see why this behavior is any more acceptable on the internet. A good intentioned person may very well be useless to you as a publisher if he has no experience in the field, but that is no excuse to not treat him with utmost respect as a human being. As I said, what I'm seeing here is people sometimes forgetting they are not just dealing with "another bad/useless publisher" but rather a decent, good-intentioned, human being who came on here of his own accord in an attempt to engage us in dialogue.

Mr. Anonymous said:

Though they are in the minority, there are in fact agents and publishers out there who enter the business without any substantial experience/apprenticeship, beat the odds, and make it. Adam from Artists and Artisans (iirc) would be one example.

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And for every one that does, how many fail, taking the writers' manuscripts with them?

If someone makes a success out of that start, more power to them. But while they're in their startup phase, I would advise caution. Especially if their websites contain typos, they print poetry collections and so on.

But I'm getting away form the point, which is really quite simple. To try to be a little more respectful. In real life, we look down on people who base their tones around how useful a person is to them. I don't see why this behavior is any more acceptable on the internet.

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No, in real life I base my tone on how professional a person is - if they're doing a job for which they're qualified or if they're an amateur. And if they're an amateur, what are they risking - their own resources or other people's hard work (and money) as well?

As I said, what I'm seeing here is people sometimes forgetting they are not just dealing with "another bad/useless publisher" but rather a decent, good-intentioned, human being who came on here of his own accord in an attempt to engage us in dialogue.

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A decent, good-intentioned human being can be a bad or useless publisher. When that happens, they don't get treated with kid gloves or given "utmost respect" because they also happen to be a nice and well-meaning human being.

And a lot of human beings come here to engage us in dialogue. Doesn't mean that all of them are decent and good-intentioned.

And I saw nothing but people with more experience than I asking him the same hardline questions they'd ask anybody in the publishing business. When he didn't give satisfactory or clear answers, they asked for further clarification which, apparently, isn't forthcoming. So rather than making any further attempts to defend his business, he's taking the tack many others have: he goes off and blogs about the meanies over on AW.

And for every one that does, how many fail, taking the writers' manuscripts with them?

If someone makes a success out of that start, more power to them. But while they're in their startup phase, I would advise caution. Especially if their websites contain typos, they print poetry collections and so on.

I agree.

No, in real life I base my tone on how professional a person is - if they're doing a job for which they're qualified or if they're an amateur. And if they're an amateur, what are they risking - their own resources or other people's hard work (and money) as well?

Here you're thinking in a very mechanical sort of way, like a business person, and I don't buy it. Writers can be businessmen, but they are always artists first and foremost (which is precisely why I don't buy it.) I try to base my tone - not on how "presentable" or "professional" someone comes across, but rather on his/her personality. Whether he/she seems like a nice person. And if he is, but he's unprofessional, okay then. I won't do business with him. But that doesn't mean my tone has to take a downturn.

A decent, good-intentioned human being can be a bad or useless publisher. When that happens, they don't get treated with kid gloves or given "utmost respect" because they also happen to be a nice and well-meaning human being.

So how good one is at one's job is more important in the way you choose to address someone than whether or not one is a nice, well meaning human being? I don't buy it.

And a lot of human beings come here to engage us in dialogue. Doesn't mean that all of them are decent and good-intentioned.

True, but in my opinion, this one was, the majority tend to be, and it never hurts to give our fellow human beings the benefit of the doubt.

All I'm saying is that I have over 900 posts here, I'm coming up on my 2 year anniversary, and I wouldn't have stayed if I didn't think this was a lovely, intelligent community. And because of this, I hold you guys to higher standards. I know you're better than some of what I've seen here and in other threads. You can, of course, disagree with any/everything I said, and the truth is nothing I say will change anyone's mind/approach.

BenPanced - I'd really rather not start quoting posts and then rewriting them to illustrate how a change of tone can make a big difference. As I said, hard questions are good. But hard questions can be asked softly.

And while he did go and blog about the meanies at AW, he also included a link to this very thread. Which suggests to me that he feels an unbiased observer looking in would sympathize with him.

Mr. Anon, there are many, many threads in the B&BC forum. You've been around for more than 900 posts. I haven't looked at them outside this discussion, but I think you must know by now how this forum works and why.

If you need anything, we're happy to help.

That is all.

Mr. Anonymous said:

Here you're thinking in a very mechanical sort of way, like a business person, and I don't buy it.

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Thanks. When it comes to the business of writing, I want to think like a businessperson.

Writers can be businessmen, but they are always artists first and foremost (which is precisely why I don't buy it.)

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I'm not sure whether you're speaking for all writers here, but I hope that my business side balances my artistic side. There's not much point in having the one without the other, IMO.

I try to base my tone - not on how "presentable" or "professional" someone comes across, but rather on his/her personality. Whether he/she seems like a nice person. And if he is, but he's unprofessional, okay then. I won't do business with him. But that doesn't mean my tone has to take a downturn.

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And I base my tone on other factors, which I've explained earlier. Niceness, to me, is not as relevant as professionalism, experience and so on. It's definitely not as relevant as whether or not someone is an amateur who is risking the hopes, hard work and money of other writers.

So how good one is at one's job is more important in the way you choose to address someone than whether or not one is a nice, well meaning human being? I don't buy it.

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You're certainly free not to buy it, but I don't see any logical reason why amateurs and wannabes should be given the "utmost respect" based on someone's opinion that they are nice, well-meaning human beings.

True, but in my opinion, this one was, the majority tend to be, and it never hurts to give our fellow human beings the benefit of the doubt.

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I don't automatically give human beings calling themselves publishers and agents the benefit of the doubt, because I've seen that that can hurt.

And it doesn't matter even if they are members of the same species as I am, Homo sapiens. Then again, I'm probably Homo sapiens businesspersoni, so they may not automatically be my fellow human beings.

All I'm saying is that I have over 900 posts here, I'm coming up on my 2 year anniversary, and I wouldn't have stayed if I didn't think this was a lovely, intelligent community. And because of this, I hold you guys to higher standards.

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Thank you. I also hold publishers and agents to certain standards, and they don't get automatic respect from me simply because they're human beings. Or because someone else feels that they are nice, decent, well-meaning human beings.

And while he did go and blog about the meanies at AW, he also included a link to this very thread. Which suggests to me that he feels an unbiased observer looking in would sympathize with him.

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Oh, well, if he feels that, it must be so.

If you need anything, we're happy to help.

That is all.

Not sure how to read this - first instinct is you're being slightly facetious and a tad patronizing, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say, thank you.

Mr. Anon, there are many, many threads in the B&BC forum. You've been around for more than 900 posts. I haven't looked at them outside this discussion, but I think you must know by now how this forum works and why.

I know how, I know why, but I'll be damned if I keep my mouth shut when I feel something isn't right.

I'm not sure whether you're speaking for all writers here, but I hope that my business side balances my artistic side. There's not much point in having the one without the other, IMO.

You're right. I shouldn't generalize. But to explain my thought process... Writers write about people. It was and is difficult for me to conceive of someone who makes knowing and depicting people such a big part of his/her life justifying responding in a snarky/snide/sarcastic manner to someone solely because he/she deems him an amateur.

And the businessman example works against you too. I'm sure you've read some business writing, and it tends to be very diplomatic. Literary agents' query rejections are a perfect example.

"Dear writer, thank you so much for allowing me to review your submission. Unfortunately, I do not feel passionate enough about YOUR BOOK to take it on, but I wish you the best in your writing endeavors."

Very nice, very professional, very business-y.

Now, think about it. For literary agents, this is a business too. And just like Phil might not have thought himself to be unprofessional, a writer who submits a subpar story with typos galore probably doesn't think he's being unprofessional either. Yet to a literary agent - it is unprofessional. To a literary agent, this writer is wasting his time. If the writer was reading within his genre, he should be able to tell what's been done and what hasn't, what's good enough to get published and what isn't. And as for typos, well, I don't think that needs to be elaborated on.

Yet, literary agents virtually ALWAYS respond in the manner depicted above. Very courteously.

Would you defend a literary agent's right to write a snarky, snide, sarcastic etc rejection to a query/manuscript? Because that's what you're justifying with regards to Phil and any other deemed an amateur. To them, their companies are like books are to us. They are their babies, their creations. It is a very similar situation.

Just imagine:

"Dear Joe,

I read manuscripts for a living, but yours was truly a standout. The plot, the characters, the writing, the flawless grasp of English grammar. My God Joe, I found myself riveted. I could not tear myself away from the abomination that you ambushed my inbox with. So grotesque, so horrifying, I could only marvel and wonder at the mind of the genius who had written it. Your book is so bad, Joe, that it is a gleaming masterpiece of anti-literature. I can't define anti-literature Joe, but trust me, I'm a professional and I know it when I see it. I really wish I could represent you Joe, if anything because I would love to see the looks on editors' faces when they get your submission. Alas, that would probably also mean the end of my career as we know it, and I have children to feed, so I cannot afford to lose the income now. But please, try me again in fifteen years once the buggers are out of my house and finished with college."

I will wrap up my involvement in this thread by saying that absolutely none of the responses I have read adequately address my concern, which is that there are many ways to voice concerns and NOTHING I have heard from anyone who has responded to me has convinced me that the perception of amateurism makes rudeness acceptable. (And in fact, quite a few responses in this thread were NOT rude.) I avoided being so blunt in previous posts, but frankly, that's how I perceive it. Downright rude. The decision to not do business with an amateur is business-like. Rudeness is not professional and not business-like and should not be condoned or defended. Especially when you (not directed at anyone in specific) are the one/s firing the opening salvos. And then to criticize someone for being rude back? Sorry but that's just hypocrisy. I call it like I see it.

Oh, well, if he feels that, it must be so.

Oh, well, if you feel other wise, it must be so.

See?

The reason why I bother, when I could just as easily pretend that I never read this thread, is that it IRKS me on a very deep level. I see the conflict here as a microcosm of why a world populated by mostly decent, good people can be such a harsh and cruel place. Because people do not like to look through other peoples' eyes. It is the story of the tower of Babel. United, humanity could usurp the throne of God. But differences fracture us and the tower crumbles into oblivion. Writer, publisher, agent. Amateur. Adequate. Professional. Conservative. Liberal. Jew. Nazi. Communist. Capitalist. Palestinian. Israeli. etc. We're obsessed with all these silly stupid categories. This obsession lwith categories leads to a fundamental unwillingness to look beyond them and treat one another as human beings first and foremost, and everything else second. And that is the root of all our greatest woes. I will not qualify my belief in that premise for anyone, or anything.

Mr. Anonymous said:

You're right. I shouldn't generalize. But to explain my thought process... Writers write about people.

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Writers get paid in money. Therefore, when I see a publisher, I think about how they might make that money.

It was and is difficult for me to conceive of someone who makes knowing and depicting people such a big part of his/her life justifying responding in a snarky/snide/sarcastic manner to someone solely because he/she deems him an amateur.

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Man, I hope you never read William Atheling. That might be like matter and anti-matter coming together.

No, wait, I take that back. He wrote just as snarkily about the work of professional writers when that work was poor in some way. Sort of like an press which isn't just amateur, but which offers editing services, hasn't proofread its own website and can't or won't answer questions.

And the businessman example works against you too. I'm sure you've read some business writing, and it tends to be very diplomatic.

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Probably because those businesspeople didn't have to deal with an amateur callimg themselves a publisher but unable to answer the tough questions.

Would you defend a literary agent's right to write a snarky, snide, sarcastic etc rejection to a query/manuscript?

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Firstly, unless an author's manuscript is risking the hopes, hard work and money of other authors, your analogy fails. If Phillip wanted to start a little press where he risked his own books, I'd say go ahead. It would be good experience for him. The moment he takes on other people's work, though, the hard questions get asked (and alas, they may not be asked in a way that's properly respectful of his status as a Homo sapiens).

Secondly, your analogy also isn't exact because people here asked good questions that could help writers thinking of signing up with ATTMP. That they didn't ask these questions with a virtual bowing and scraping doesn't invalidate the questions. So to be accurate, your analogy could have the literary agent providing good information on how to improve the manuscript, but doing so in a snarky way.

I'd love to get a rejection like that.

Because that's what you're justifying with regards to Phil and any other deemed an amateur. To them, their companies are like books are to us. They are their babies, their creations. It is a very similar situation.

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Try posting something in SYW and then saying that because that work is your baby and your creation, people should be utmostly respectful of you when they critique it.

And whatever you post there won't even be risking the manuscripts of writers who have signed up with you.

In other words, I don't care if a company is someone's baby or creation or the love of their life. This is Bewares and Background Check. Not the Utmost Respect forum or the Show Off Your Baby forum.

I will wrap up my involvement in this thread by saying that absolutely none of the responses I have read adequately address my concern

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And none of your responses have convinced me that there is any reason to bend over backwards for amateur presses in this forum.

Especially when you (not directed at anyone in specific) are the one/s firing the opening salvos. And then to criticize someone for being rude back? Sorry but that's just hypocrisy. I call it like I see it.

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Even when reviewers are sarcastic about books, authors are still not praised for responding in a similar vein.

It's not hypocrisy. It's evidence of professionalism. I call it like it is.

Oh, well, if you feel other wise, it must be so.

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You brought up ATTMP's link to AW as though that was a sign of their sincerity and innocence. I don't see any indication that it is.

See?

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No, I don't.

This obsession with categories leads to a fundamental unwillingness to look beyond them and treat one another as human beings first and foremost, and everything else second.

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Have you discussed this with the moderators? Maybe you can convince them to change the rules of this forum such that they satisfy you.