"Solar Freakin' Roadways"

Roxxsmom

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It is an interesting idea - rife with loads of practical problems.

Just as one: How do you transmit power from, say, the highways in the middle of nowhere to cities?

But...see, here's something that some of the naysayers seem to forget: You don't need to do it all at once.

I mean, we can build some solar roadways here, or there, and see how they work. Then, if it does work, we can expand the solar roadway network over time. The massive amount of money it would take isn't that massive if it is spread over many many years, and as the network expands, the technology would improve and the whole thing would work better.

Of course, why stop at roadways? Every building in America should have solar on the roof...

This has been one issue that's holding up the widespread implementation of solar power, even in countries that use more of it than we do--storage of solar surplus for use at night or on cloudy days. Maybe the technology isn't too far off, though.
 
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dfwtinman

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Last night's "Cosmos" TV show on the greenhouse effect had perhaps the simplest, clearest explanation of man's negative impact on the planet and the dire risks posed that I have ever heard tell of, much less seen. Highly recommended.
 
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Channy

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Just as one: How do you transmit power from, say, the highways in the middle of nowhere to cities?

But...see, here's something that some of the naysayers seem to forget: You don't need to do it all at once.

I mean, we can build some solar roadways here, or there, and see how they work. Then, if it does work, we can expand the solar roadway network over time. The massive amount of money it would take isn't that massive if it is spread over many many years, and as the network expands, the technology would improve and the whole thing would work better.

What about the north where it snows, gets icy, we use caustic roadsalt, and plows that would basically peel those cells off the highway?

All I can think about is poor BC with its thousands of forest service roads that are already subject to the elements, barely wide enough to fit a logging truck, much less two cars on the road at a time... These would undoubtedly be low on the list to get done, but for how long? When most of Canada has moved on to the electric cars and traveling on the solar roadways, what happens when they're going along a backwater road and they can't go any further?

And further onto that, what of driveways? Again, obviously low on the priority but some people have pretty substantial driveways, either steep or long... what happens then? Is the car just going to stop once you're off the platforms? And then you have to schlep it the way onward?

Are the cars going to be completely dependant on the solar energy? Is this high/low stakes priority list going to enforce that everybody gets a Hybrid (hey, that's my word) for the first 5, 10, 15, 25?? years until the world is covered in this stuff?

And I still can't wrap my mind around the overuse of it too... Sure your average car wouldn't do much to it, nor would a bunch of average cars or trucks... but what about the semis? the logging trucks, the trailers... the continual use of these oversized vehicles driving over them... I can't imagine that they'd be that heavy duty to withstand that kind of use over an extended period of time.
 

Dommo

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This is idea is bunk unless it's got a similar cost of ownership/ROI as a typical road or parking lot.

For example, for me to build a parking lot from scratch (excluding the purchase of the land), it costs about $1000-$2000 per parking spot for a blacktop lot (includes clearing/grading the land, plus all of the material/labor). That lot might last a good 10-20 years before it needs to be resurfaced (cost of maybe $300-$500 per spot), and it might need to be resealed every 5 years or so ($20-30 per spot). So for a 50 parking space lot, it might cost me $75,000 to build it, and maybe another $25,000 in upkeep over a 30 to 40 year time frame. Let's just say a $100,000 total. Plus repairing blacktop and concrete is pretty dang trivial, with readily available local suppliers who actually make the product.

These solar road tiles just don't seem practical to me (I've built parking lots).
1. There is no way in hell they'll tolerate being plowed as well as a road.
2. You can't resurface them, so to conduct repairs you actually have to replace entire tiles.
3. The cost of these things is going to pretty substantial. Probably $1000+ per tile.
4. They can't be made in every little podunk town like concrete and asphalt can. This means that you will always have a production bottleneck since road materials are generally speaking, quite basic (e.g. fill dirt, gravel, concrete, asphalt, rebar, that's about it).
5. Recyclable. Old asphalt/concrete are often reused in other roads or construction projects. Rip-rap (crushed concrete/asphalt) is often used as a sub-base material for other construction and actually has commercial value.
 

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Hey, even if the roadway idea is dumb, the tech to make durable, self-heating solar cells would still work if you put it somewhere radical or extreme.

Like...

Say, the roof.
 

Dommo

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+1 for zoom.

That's an area where it makes more sense, plus the power generated would be where it's being used.

What I do think is possible is something more like a chemical based phosphorescent additive that can give pavement "glowing" qualities based on the temperature and light hitting the pavement. For example paint lines that are created by an additive in the concrete/blacktop that causes the road surface itself to glow.
 

kaitie

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How on earth would you keep them clean enough to be effective?
 

benbradley

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Watch the video. The stored power would be used to keep the road surface above freezing in adverse weather. No plows. No salt.

I don't know what the limits are as far as dealing with feet of snow from a blizzard, or air temperatures in the negative double-digits, but it's worth looking into.
Just storing the power in batteries would be costly - it would do much better to suck power from the grid (getting power from hundreds of miles away where it's sunny and clear) to melt off snow and ice, and then of course send power onto the grid when it gets enough sunlight.

And as for yet another risk, I envision getting lots of these going to where they add a substantial amount to the use of electricity, and then a big volcano blows, blocking out sunlight for a year or so, necessitating cranking up some old coal-burning electric plants. At least the sulfur in the air will reduce global warming for a while.
All I can think about is poor BC with its thousands of forest service roads that are already subject to the elements, barely wide enough to fit a logging truck, much less two cars on the road at a time... These would undoubtedly be low on the list to get done, but for how long?
So at this point I'm thinking, why would such roads EVER be done? If they're surrounded by trees, they'll be in the shade for most of daylight, and won't produce much power at all compared to a more exposed road.
When most of Canada has moved on to the electric cars and traveling on the solar roadways, what happens when they're going along a backwater road and they can't go any further?
Oh, I see, you're thinking that these roads will somehow directly power electric cars that drive over them. While this might be in some way possible, it will no doubt be many years down the road (ahem) before that happens.

As I understand it, these roads will tie into the standard electric grid and help power everything that connects to it, not just electric cars. Such cars will have batteries (just as they do now), and connect up to be charged when they are parked (just as they do now).
And further onto that, what of driveways? Again, obviously low on the priority but some people have pretty substantial driveways, either steep or long... what happens then? Is the car just going to stop once you're off the platforms? And then you have to schlep it the way onward?
Even if the cars are powered directly by the road, surely they'll have enough battery power to run a couple of MILES without being on the road. Current electric cars run a couple HUNDRED miles without external power, though batteries make up a substantial portion of their weight.
Are the cars going to be completely dependant on the solar energy? Is this high/low stakes priority list going to enforce that everybody gets a Hybrid (hey, that's my word) for the first 5, 10, 15, 25?? years until the world is covered in this stuff?

And I still can't wrap my mind around the overuse of it too... Sure your average car wouldn't do much to it, nor would a bunch of average cars or trucks... but what about the semis? the logging trucks, the trailers... the continual use of these oversized vehicles driving over them... I can't imagine that they'd be that heavy duty to withstand that kind of use over an extended period of time.
How on earth would you keep them clean enough to be effective?
Yet another of a myriad of questions, and too many remain unanswered.

While I find this an interesting idea, the practical questions put this way down on the list that (if I had the money and chose to do so) I would "invest" in crowdfunded projects.
 
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juniper

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Dommo

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Well crap. There goes my million dollar idea.
 

Channy

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So at this point I'm thinking, why would such roads EVER be done? If they're surrounded by trees, they'll be in the shade for most of daylight, and won't produce much power at all compared to a more exposed road.

Just storing the power in batteries would be costly - it would do much better to suck power from the grid (getting power from hundreds of miles away where it's sunny and clear) to melt off snow and ice, and then of course send power onto the grid when it gets enough sunlight.

Oh, I see, you're thinking that these roads will somehow directly power electric cars that drive over them. While this might be in some way possible, it will no doubt be many years down the road (ahem) before that happens.

I think maybe I misunderstood but yeah, that's what I thought the whole thing was about... using solar freaking roadways to power the very cars that were driving on it.. and only solar. My mind didn't even really go into battery/mini fuel thought until the very end there where I kind of shoehorned it in.

As I understand it, these roads will tie into the standard electric grid and help power everything that connects to it, not just electric cars. Such cars will have batteries (just as they do now), and connect up to be charged when they are parked (just as they do now).

Even if the cars are powered directly by the road, surely they'll have enough battery power to run a couple of MILES without being on the road. Current electric cars run a couple HUNDRED miles without external power, though batteries make up a substantial portion of their weight.

Yeah we don't have any electric cars in my tiny little town so my experience/knowledge with them is nil. But that's all pretty obvious now that I think of it. /facepalm
 

robjvargas

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The same way we transmit power from the middle of nowhere to cities today?
Not so much.

Power transmission right now is done with alternating current. Solar power is direct current. We'd need a lot of installations around the country to make that conversion. Otherwise, it wouldn't surprise me if the efficiency is WAY down in single digit range.

Also, we use high voltage for transmission over long distances. That is also not easy with solar (so far as I understand it).

It's doable, but there are roadblocks.
 

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Just read a good bit on this - the bike path in the Netherlands seems to have worked beyond expectations. and now France with a MAJOR 1000 km investment.

Wasn't there a 'solar paint' around at one stage? That's something I'd like to see happening - little nanobot of solar panels one can paint onto anything. When they gonna put solar power plants in orbit? Hmm? They're taking their damned time...


Found this. 'Thon'....Now that's a futuristic name for the future

http://hub.jhu.edu/2016/02/09/solar-energy-spray-paint
 
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Don

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Given the sorry state of our roads today, does anybody really think that high-tech, electronic systems embedded in the roadways would be adequately maintained and actually show a reasonable ERoEI? What would ever make anyone believe that's even a remote possibility, when the plain old asphalt and concrete roads of today receive a grade of D from the American Association of Civil Engineers?

And people say that those skeptical of government are the impractical dreamers. :ROFL:

ETA: For example, see this.

The interstate highway system hits 60 – years, not miles per hour – this week amid unprecedented travel, growing congestion and a backlog for repairs, according to research report Monday.
...
The system has a $189 billion backlog of needed improvements, according to Transportation Department estimates. That figure includes $100 billion for expansion and enhancement, $59 billion ton improve pavement and $30 billion to improve bridges.
...
Bud Wright, executive director of the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials, said at the 60th anniversary of the interstate system “it’s clear that our investments in preserving the system are not keeping up even as our nation continues to grow.”
 
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Albedo

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Given the sorry state of our roads today, does anybody really think that high-tech, electronic systems embedded in the roadways would be adequately maintained and actually show a reasonable ERoEI? What would ever make anyone believe that's even a remote possibility, when the plain old asphalt and concrete roads of today receive a grade of D from the American Association of Civil Engineers?

And people say that those skeptical of government are the impractical dreamers. :ROFL:

ETA: For example, see this.
^^ not to mention that there is no possible problem solar roads could solve that, say, mandated solar roofs for new buildings couldn't solve, using existing technology, without the need for new grid infrastructure, and with radically less maintenance cost (given they're not being crushed by semi-trailers all day and night long). But I suppose you can't get those sweet, sweet crowdfunding dollars with existing tech, can you? I officially declare my curmudgeon status on solar roads.
 

James D. Macdonald

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The interstate highway system hits 60 – years, not miles per hour – this week amid unprecedented travel, growing congestion and a backlog for repairs, according to research report Monday.
...
The system has a $189 billion backlog of needed improvements, according to Transportation Department estimates. That figure includes $100 billion for expansion and enhancement, $59 billion ton improve pavement and $30 billion to improve bridges.
...
Bud Wright, executive director of the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials, said at the 60th anniversary of the interstate system “it’s clear that our investments in preserving the system are not keeping up even as our nation continues to grow.”

Nothing that raising taxes wouldn't cure.
 

Don

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Nothing that raising taxes wouldn't cure.
Or maybe we could keep tax money here at home, rebuilding our infrastructure instead of running around the world blowing up other countries' infrastructure??

Or maybe use the tax money they extort that they use to chase down people smoking nature's bounty, putting them through a show trial, then adding to the world's highest incarceration rate, said incarceration fees paid to some crony crapitolists who own the overflowing and poorly-managed prisons?

Or just maybe use the tax money they extort and hand over to their crony crapitolist buddies when said buddies do such a crappy job of serving their customers that they can't make a living on their own, and threaten to collapse, taking everybody else with them?

Why in the world anybody would think that the best way to solve any problem of government incompetence is by handing them even more hard-earned dollars, when they already waste it in myriad ridiculous ways, is far beyond my understanding. Then again, that seems to be a common refrain any time government can't deliver on time, on budget, as promised... which is pretty much all the time.

Education failing? Give them more money. Infrastructure failing? Give them more money. Health care failing? Give them more money. Post Office failing? Give them more money. Military failing to contain threats politicians created by sending them to invade other countries? Give them more money.

When is enough, enough? When private companies fail to do as promised, there are consequences. Isn't it time to apply that concept to government as well?
 
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James D. Macdonald

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Education failing? Give them more money. Infrastructure failing? Give them more money. Health care failing? Give them more money. Post Office failing? Give them more money.

Given that they're all failing because they've been starved for money, yes, giving them more money is the answer.


Military failing to contain threats politicians created by sending them to invade other countries? Give them more money.

That's on the cut-taxes-and-spend-on-foreign-adventures "The Government is failing!" right-wingers you're talking about.

When is enough, enough? When private companies fail to do as promised, there are consequences. Isn't it time to apply that concept to government as well?

Yes, time to vote out the Republicans, one and all.
 

James D. Macdonald

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^^ not to mention that there is no possible problem solar roads could solve that, say, mandated solar roofs for new buildings couldn't solve, using existing technology, without the need for new grid infrastructure, and with radically less maintenance cost (given they're not being crushed by semi-trailers all day and night long). But I suppose you can't get those sweet, sweet crowdfunding dollars with existing tech, can you? I officially declare my curmudgeon status on solar roads.

The government already owns the roads and the right-of-way. They don't own private citizens' rooftops.

Are you planning to make solar rooftop electric collectors and the associated battery arrays 100% tax deductible, and give out grants to pay 100% for installation and maintenance? Then make it possible for private citizens to sell power back to the grid without limits. Do those things and you'll see solar arrays all over the place in next-to-no-time.

In the meantime, what's wrong with a pilot program to work the bugs out of the solar roads idea?