The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

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Jarocal

Looks like a shady contract to me

Am I just blind (I have been known to miss obvious things before) or according to the contract are electronic rights still the possession of the author to dispose of as they see fit? I saw where movie rights and such are only under PA's clutches if the author signs them over to them but I didn't see electronic rights mentioned.
 

astonwest

Re: Looks like a shady contract to me

See, they hide it away in clause 9 (which starts out discussing promotional info (and using electronic formats to 'promote'), go figure)...which I've been told they may remove that section of the clause, if the author asks prior to signing the contract:

"9. The Publisher agrees to distribute, at his discretion, for purposes of publicity and/or review,
promotional information pertaining to the said literary work, to publications throughout the United
States and/or the Dominion of Canada, or elsewhere. Distribution of this promotional material shall
be at the Publisher’s own cost and expense and to media outlets of the Publisher’s own choice. The
Author agrees that excerpts of the said literary work may be included in this promotional information,
and agrees, furthermore, that the Publisher may, at the Publisher’s election and discretion, cause to
promote the said literary work, as designated, in any electronic format
, and that the Publisher may
sell or cause to sell copies of the said literary work in any electronic format
. The Publisher agrees to
pay to the Author a return as specified in Provision # 3 of this agreement of the sales price of every
copy in any electronic format that may be sold
and for which the Publisher shall receive payment in
money."
 

KW

There you go Jarocal

I was going to send you the contract, but it is already here. Thanks Dave. Now, read through it and see if you can find the clause that allows PA to change it at the discretion. I can't find it.

And PA does have the rights to the ebooks but they have stated they don't do ebooks no more since they can't sell them. They thought it might be a quick way for some money, thinking ebooks was the wave of the future, but they were wrong.

Kevin
 

HapiSofi

Re: Kevin/Sher2/Cover Art

Sher, re your earlier question, keep your name, and don't worry about that "embarrassing association with PA". If you don't promote your PA title, no one will ever hear about it who doesn't actively go looking for it; and if you can contrive to change a letter or two in your name on the PA edition, you'll be effectively unfindable. At that point, the worst that can happen is that if you become a successful author, PA will crow about having published you.

The real publishing industry -- at least the part of it with which I'm familiar -- knows these parasites and scavengers are out there, preying on wanna-be writers. We hold it against them, but not you.

If you go poking around on these boards, you can find some irresponsible but not altogether ineffective advice for getting your book back. Alternately, if you prefer to do things on the up-and-up, you can ask PA to give it back, and threaten to sue them for making fraudulent misrepresentations. In the latter case, don't accept their argument that they need to hold on to it for a year to make back the money they've spent on it (which is trivial, and wouldn't matter even if it weren't), or their claim that they've already printed up those supposed 49 copies.

If you do take action to get your book back, you'll hear from some of the abusive bullies PA keeps on call. Listen analytically, don't take it to heart, and don't believe a thing PA says unless you have reliable outside confirmation on it. They'll bluster and threaten, but the last thing they want to have to do is give sworn testimony about their business methods.
 

priceless1

Clarification

In reading some of these posts, some talked about how a few authors had hardcovers and e-books. The reason most of those have been removed from the publisher's site is because they were publishing all these formats under one ISBN #. Any time you change a format, be it hardcover, e-book, or trade paperback, a new ISBN # must accompany it as well. They haven't done that and were slapped for it. But, as you can see, a couple must have slipped through the cracks. A huge no-no.
 

DaveKuzminski

Hey Willem!

Can Bruce come out and play? I promise he won't be returned any dirtier than he already is.
 

Betty W01

Re: Research

A thumbtack would be wasted on this thread, wouldn't it?

5_6_32.gif
This is the thread that doesn't end,
5_6_31.gif

it just goes on and on, my friend...

5_6_34.gif
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Research

When it hits 100 sub-pages can we start a new thread, "Son of More PA woes, straight from a PA author's mouth... "?
 

CaoPaux

Children's books

IIRC, several months ago an author raised a stink because she’d ordered a case of books for a book signing, but when they finally arrived the illustrations were black & white, rather than color. Shortly thereafter, PA announced they were no longer accepting children’s books and/or books with color illustrations. There has been much hand wringing about this, and folks are starting to look elsewhere.

www.publishamerica.com/cg...s/1738.htm

Danielle

7/15/2004
15:14:00

Message:
Okay guys,

After I slept on it I figured out what to do about my second book being refused. I am going to self publish my own books. I called Pa. and they are not taking children's books ever. Or at least for several years. So it wasn't my book. I am going to close off my familyroom and name it a company name. I will receive tax credits on my utilities and mortgage. and I called a printer and I can't believe the difference I can receive on money per book. And I decided to also start studying up on becoming an editor for self-publishers. But I will need experience so Danielle ( the other one) I would like to edit your children's book they refused also for free.
I have had such a great time getting to know all of you but this is what I have to do for my son.

Danielle
Www.freewebs.com/joeysmommy
------
 

NancyMehl

Re: The Thread That Never Ends...La, la, la!

Betty,

Unfortunately, every time a new sucker, I mean author, is added to the PA ranks, another verse will be added to this ongoing song.

The reason the subject won't die has to do with the large numbers of people PA signs. There are hundreds every month. Are there any publishers out there who publish this many books during the period of a year? I can't think of any. And, there isn't hardly any staff - so no editing - no support - heck, they can't even answer all their e-mails!

I can't think of any scam out there that has taken in this many people. The larger PA grows, the more writers will find their way to forums like this, wondering what the heck happened.

I don't think this discussion will slow down until PA is out of business.

Nancy
 

Sher2

Re: Kevin/Sher2/Cover Art

< Sher, re your earlier question, keep your name, and don't worry about that "embarrassing association with PA". If you don't promote your PA title, no one will ever hear about it who doesn't actively go looking for it; and if you can contrive to change a letter or two in your name on the PA edition, you'll be effectively unfindable. At that point, the worst that can happen is that if you become a successful author, PA will crow about having published you.

Alternately, if you prefer to do things on the up-and-up, you can ask PA to give it back, and threaten to sue them for making fraudulent misrepresentations. In the latter case, don't accept their argument that they need to hold on to it for a year to make back the money they've spent on it (which is trivial, and wouldn't matter even if it weren't), or their claim that they've already printed up those supposed 49 copies.

If you do take action to get your book back, you'll hear from some of the abusive bullies PA keeps on call. Listen analytically, don't take it to heart, and don't believe a thing PA says.>


Thanks for the very good advice, HapiSofi. Actually, I'm not so worried about it today -- I may have found a home for my second novel; at least, somebody's interested in reading more of it. Now I'm thinking I just may let my pen name live on and write well. Also, I head from someone who did it that all you have to do to get out of the contract is inform PA that you have no intention of buying your own books or peddling them to your kinfolk. When told this by our anonymous author, PA took the bull by the horns and unceremoniously dumped said author.

At least I know for sure they haven't printed my 49 copies; I haven't even gotten galley proofs yet.

As for PA's bully tactics, shoot, I ain't skeered of nuthin'. And I wouldn't believe it if PA told me the sky was blue. I'd have to go look first.
 

Sher2

Re: The Thread That Never Ends...La, la, la!

<Unfortunately, every time a new sucker, I mean author, is added to the PA ranks, another verse will be added to this ongoing song.>

I think you said it right the first time, Nancy. LOL.

I agree 100% that this topic, and others like it, should continue until such time as there's no further need for it.
 

DaveKuzminski

Re: Contract

We should do a section by section analysis of the contract and leave pointers (links) to it everywhere possible to better educate new writers as to what is bad and shouldn't be signed away.

In fact, P&E's original negative recommendation for PublishAmerica was based upon a reading of their original contract. They could have easily fixed their contract and the negative recommendation would have been removed. Instead, they attempted to threaten me with extortion attempts and libel in the form of character smears.

Anyway, it's long past the time for putting everything out in the open that can be because they're hurting too many writers.
 

Jarocal

Re: In the interest of educating writers

9. The Publisher agrees to distribute, at his discretion, for purposes of publicity and/or review,
promotional information pertaining to the said literary work, to publications throughout the United
States and/or the Dominion of Canada, or elsewhere. Distribution of this promotional material shall
be at the Publisher’s own cost and expense and to media outlets of the Publisher’s own choice. The
Author agrees that excerpts of the said literary work may be included in this promotional information,
and agrees, furthermore, that the Publisher may, at the Publisher’s election and discretion, cause to
promote the said literary work, as designated, in any electronic format, and that the Publisher may
sell or cause to sell copies of the said literary work in any electronic format. The Publisher agrees to
pay to the Author a return as specified in Provision # 3 of this agreement of the sales price of every
copy in any electronic format that may be sold and for which the Publisher shall receive payment in
money.

The provision is article nine states they have rights to print the material in electronic format, not exclusive electronic rights. If I had been burnt by PA I would probably self-publish it again in electronic format (using a different cover text and adding a forward to the book) for free as a PDF document under Public Domain just to spite PA. After doing that I would try to list it with Planet PDF, Project Gutenberg, and every other website that I could find who deals in e-texts. I would even approach sites that usually sell e-texts and offer them non-exclusive electronic rights to give it away as a promotion. If they cried about it I would tell them that I am only marketing the book the best way I know how since their pricing and policies make it difficult to place on bookstore shelves and that someone who starts reading it as an e-text will be more likely to order from a bookstore with having read a couple chapters in electronic format than as a cold read off of a bookstore shelf (not that there would be many of them there). Inform them the goal is to promote the book, if they don't like the way it is being marketed they can either release the contract or use their "election and discretion as
to the extent, scope and character thereof and in all matters pertaining thereto
" in a more productive manner that yields sales. The bottom line is they shaded their electronic rights to where the author could not go after them for gross incompetence by not publishing in Electronic format. By covering themselves they also opened themselves up for the author to put a legal burr under their saddle, they are able to do nothing but browbeat a bit and then give up or release the author from the contract. Even a slanted arbitration board would have to look at the contract see your within your legal rights, weigh it against the amount of marketing PA actually does (mail 40 letters to people you know who are most likely already aware that you are publishing a book), and decide that they don't want a decision against the author to come to light in a court battle that will surely follow with PA losing.
 

HapiSofi

Re: In the interest of educating writers

Paragraph #9 of the PA contract bothers me. Like the rest of their contract, it's self-serving and seriously nonstandard. I believe it's also deliberately constructed to be misleading. It's not the only paragraph in the PA contract that's constructed that way, but #9 annoys me right now, and I might as well start there as anywhere. Here's the whole thing:
9. The Publisher agrees to distribute, at his discretion, for purposes of publicity and/or review, promotional information pertaining to the said literary work, to publications throughout the United States and/or the Dominion of Canada, or elsewhere. Distribution of this promotional material shall be at the Publisher’s own cost and expense and to media outlets of the Publisher’s own choice. The Author agrees that excerpts of the said literary work may be included in this promotional information, and agrees, furthermore, that the Publisher may, at the Publisher’s election and discretion, cause to promote the said literary work, as designated, in any electronic format, and that the Publisher may sell or cause to sell copies of the said literary work in any electronic format. The Publisher agrees to pay to the Author a return as specified in Provision # 3 of this agreement of the sales price of every copy in any electronic format that may be sold and for which the Publisher shall receive payment in money.
One of the basic conventions of English prose is that paragraphs group similar material. If two subjects appear in the same paragraph, they're assumed to be related. But paragraph #9 slides from one subject, the publisher promoting the book, to a completely different subject, a grant of rights; and it does so in a deliberately obscure way, using similar-sounding phrasing to express an unrelated issue.

You want to talk about standard vs. nonstandard contracts? In a standard contract, grants of rights are up front, under a heading that says something like "GRANT" or "GRANT OF RIGHTS". Other subrights, licenses, etc., are in paragraphs with similarly appropriate headings. They are not tucked into the latter portion of a paragraph about book promotion.

Let's get specific. I'm going to be mixing criticisms of the contractual language with criticisms of its structure, but I trust you'll be able to follow.
9. The Publisher agrees to distribute, at his discretion, for purposes of publicity and/or review, promotional information pertaining to the said literary work, to publications throughout the United States and/or the Dominion of Canada, or elsewhere. Distribution of this promotional material shall be at the Publisher’s own cost and expense and to media outlets of the Publisher’s own choice.
It requires the optimism of a first-time author to see this as a promise to effectually promote the book. It doesn't say they'll promote the book. It says they can promote the book if they want to. Now, if this section said "the publisher will promote the book," the authors might have something. They don't. This is nothing. Consider: If you've written a nonfiction book about a specialized subject, and there's one inarguably obvious venue in which your book should be promoted -- say, the one magazine that's universally read by absolutely everyone who's interested in your subject -- then under this contract, you have no grounds for complaint if PA fails to so much as send that magazine a press release.

Distributing promotional material is never a sure bet. It may work, it may not work, and you may or may not be able to tell whether it worked. That's not PA's style. They don't take chances on anything or anybody, and they've consistently been averse to making any outlay for which they aren't directly compensated. They won't even lower a cover price by a couple of bucks to hit an obvious price point. As far as anyone knows, they don't even have sales & marketing, ad/promo, or publicity staff.

Many publishing contracts -- the real kind -- don't even mention promotion. The contracts just assume that the publisher has a strong incentive to market your book.

Onward.
The Author agrees that excerpts of the said literary work may be included in this promotional information,
That doesn't sound terribly unreasonable on the face of it, right? You're thinking Hey, cool, they're gonna promote my book, in which context They want to be able to quote from my book when they promote it seems like a logical albeit minor housekeeping detail.
and agrees, furthermore, that the Publisher may, at the Publisher’s election and discretion, cause to promote the said literary work, as designated, in any electronic format,
There's some broken language here. The Publisher may cause who or what to promote the book? Possibly they meant "cause to be promoted", and later on in the same sentence meant "cause to be sold", in which case they're just jarring and embarrassing grammatical errors. Meanwhile, what's with that "as designated"? This is a single-book contract. "The literary work" or "said literary work" would suffice, though it'd still be clunky nonstandard language. Usually you just say "(hereinafter called the Work)" in the initial grant of rights, and thereafter refer to it as "the Work".

The more important question is why permission to promote the book in electronic format is specified at all. PA's already been granted permission to promote the book (if they feel like it). If no formats are specified, all formats may be assumed. So why this phrase? I'll argue that its sole purpose in the contract is to act as the first half of a deliberately misleading parallel construction:
The Author agrees that ... the Publisher may, at the Publisher’s election and discretion, cause to promote the said literary work, as designated, in any electronic format, and that the Publisher may sell or cause to sell copies of the said literary work in any electronic format.
That's a non-exclusive grant of all electronic rights.

Do you see what happened? PublishAmerica's contract slides from "permission to promote" to "permission to quote excerpts for purposes of promotion" to "permission to promote in any electronic format" to "permission to sell the work in any electronic format". It's artful, it's dishonest as hell, and there's no way it can be an accident of clumsy language.

Might as well finish up with the rest of the paragraph, where there's clumsy language in plenty:
The Publisher agrees to pay to the Author a return
Perhaps they meant "royalty". Returns are shipped copies the bookstores send back, either as whole copies or as stripped covers.
as specified in Provision # 3 of this agreement
Ten words in a row that contain no errors or problems!
of the sales price
Should be "on the cover price", or "on the selling price", or "on the full retail price". A "return of the sales price" is what Crazy Eddie announces on his TV commercials.
of every copy in any electronic format that may be sold
Thus confirming that what happened up there was a grant of all electronic publication rights.
and for which the Publisher shall receive payment in money.
That's weaselly. If PublishAmerica receives payment in any form whatsoever, the author should be entitled to his or her share.

A full critique of the PA contract would take a long time. I've been thinking about dissecting the part about buying back your production materials when your book is reverted. It's inexcusable.
 

FM St George

And we have a Winnah!

www.publishamerica.com/cg...l/1399.htm


7/16/2004
12:05:39
Subject: Golden Opportunity -- Botched


Message:
You've never seen a post from me because I've never felt I had anthing to contribute. Today I have. I've been reading the message board for several months now, and have found it both fun, and useful. My book "Return to Alaska" is scheduled for offical release 8/30/04. I'll be factual in telling you about my big book sale that came close, but ultimately rejected.

I live in the Pacific Northwest (Oregon), and my wife works for a major retailer -- Fred Meyer Stores. She told the corporate book buyer about my book. The buyer said they would probably carry it IF it was handled through their wholesaler. I promptly contacted that organizaton, and eventually sent them information about the book. The very next day the buyer sent me email "What are the terms of sale to wholesalers?" I'm thinking oh boy! He's not asking that question out of idle curiosity. Let's see Fred Meyer (FM) has about 130 stores and eachstore gets about 10-20 copies. Man! If it does well at _
FM it's likely the wholesaler will place it in the other 10 stores he distributes to.
I email PA who responds to the term of sale question the following.

"We offer the following retailer discounts:

1-50 copies: 40%
51-100 copies: 45%
101+ copies: 50%

Our books are not returnable, and we require pre-payment by credit card (Visa, Mastercard, or Amercian Express) or check or money order. retailers may place an order by calling us --phone-----------. Approved retailers, such as Barnes & Noble, Borders, Walmart, and Waldenbooks, may fax a purchase order to ---phone---".

I passed that information to the wholesaler. This is his response; "Thanks Bruce although the terms are standard for the book trade they are not the terms we normally work with. Thanks for your submission we will have to pass on it".

The spin stops here -- you decide.

Don't suggest that I contact the retailer it's not going to work. Msot retail stores sign a contract with wholesalers whose sole purpose is to ensure books departments are in order. They hire merchandisers who go into the stores once a week and fill holes, make sure inventory levels are sufficient, and basically maintain the department. They are not going to make an exception for one book. FM would have to redo the entire distribution process -- what a nightmare that'd be!

PA I've read some beautiful responses you've posted before regarding this type of thing, and I'll look forward to seeing your response to this posting! We lost the potential of possibly selling thousands of copies -- Why?

Thnks for letting me rant.

Bruce

LBS

7/16/2004
12:20:01


RE: Golden Opportunity -- Botched


Message:
Hi Bruce...
I'm a fellow Oregon author and I feel your pain! Fred Meyer would be an awesome outlet for your book. I contacted them a while back, garnered their interest, and got the same response.
I think they probably do their book business like Walmart...PA authors never end up there either!

Good news?...You're in good company.

Shannon
 

CaoPaux

Son of children's books

More discussion of children’s books:

www.publishamerica.com/cg...l/1397.htm

Including a response by PA:

-----
Infocenter
Administrator
7/16/2004
01:14:32

Shhhh...

Listen....

The reason why we have put a moratorium on full-color children's books is simple, and has been stated on this board before.

Bubbles, bye-bye's, distribution issues? Nope, none of the above. Gremlins, ghosts, body snatchers? Nah. The reality is quite innocent: for months now, we have been swamped with full-color children's book submissions. It's just incredible how many children's book writers are out there. We had to put an indefinite stop on reviewing this deluge, and that's what we have been saying to everyone involved from the day we made this decision. It's simple economics: when you spend too much time on the selection process of a certain genre (and an expensive genre at that: producing full-color pages is ten times more costly than black/white pages), you declare a time-out. That's all we have done.

We continue to review and accept non-illustrated and lightly illustrated children's books in black and white. And all full-color children's books that are already under contract will be published as planned.
-----
 

HapiSofi

Re: And we have a Winnah!

FM St. George quoted yon hapless PA author as saying:
Don't suggest that I contact the retailer it's not going to work. Most retail stores sign a contract with wholesalers whose sole purpose is to ensure books departments are in order. They hire merchandisers who go into the stores once a week and fill holes, make sure inventory levels are sufficient, and basically maintain the department. They are not going to make an exception for one book. FM would have to redo the entire distribution process -- what a nightmare that'd be!
Poor guy. He's had exactly one piece of luck, which is that someone's given him a very clear explanation of how ID bookselling works. Book distribution is divided into ID and Trade. Trade means bookstores. ID means non-bookstore channels like Target, Fred Meyer, Wal-Mart, and all those wire racks of paperbacks in drug stores and grocery stores.

It's hard enough for PA authors to talk one or two bookstores into carrying their titles, and the chains don't want to hear from them, but the odds of an individual author cracking the ID market are effectively zero. Bruce got it right: Fred Meyer would have to reconfigure their entire distribution system to accommodate his book. ID bookselling is tough and technical.

Chalk it up as one more thing PA chronically forgets to mention when they're selling their program to prospective authors.
 

FM St George

Re:Winnah part 2

and the ugly truth rears it's head...

PA is going to kill this thread.

***********
RE: Golden Opportunity -- Botched


Message:
Bruce,

My book is still in the editing phase but I like reading posts such as this because it gives me an opportunity to see what challenges we all face. Sorry to hear they were not interested but that does not mean giving up. You just do the best you can and everything will work out fine. I am also a fellow Oregonian living in Beaverton.

Anne
"101 Practical Tips & Pieces Of Advice For The New Mother"

Becky

7/16/2004
14:06:07
RE: Golden Opportunity -- Botched


Message:
Dear Bruce
First, I really regret that this deal fell through for you. It somehow must seem frustrating however, it does bring to light some obstacles that surely there are solutions to for all of us. Fred Meyer said that PA's terms were standard for the book trade. In reviewing PA's response regarding their terms, I did not really think that they were off base or out of line at all. Do you know the terms that wholesalers like those working with Fred Meyer and Walmart etc work with and what would be acceptable terms for them? There must be some way to avoid losing important sales like this but at the same time PA does have a buisness to run and seems to have standard guidelines. I am really glad that you posted because issues like this can affect us all. Hang in there Bruce!

Sincerely
Becky

Dorothy Williams

7/16/2004
14:15:46
RE: Golden Opportunity -- Botched


Message:
Hi, Bruce. I agree, it is a good thing that you posted this situation because somebody else might run into the same thing or something similar. What if the FM in your area bought 50 or so books for a book signing for you? Would they do that? That would get you a lot of exposure. Good luck and God Bless.


Dorothy "Oooh, My Aching Head" Williams



Bruce

7/16/2004
15:05:30
RE: Golden Opportunity -- Botched


Message:
Hi All.

Hello fellow authors.
The thing which bothers me the most is that it really was a 'slam dunk'. Probably because of connections with FM. From my point of view it would have happened -- until the wholsaler wanted to know the terms of sale. PA said in part "OUR BOOKS ARE NOT RETURNABLE".
The wholesaler replied, in part "NOT THE TERMS WE NORMALLY WORK WITH"

I know it's a business policy with both parties. If I were a store owner/manager I wouldn't carry a product that I might get stuck with either. Can you imagine ordering 2,000 copies and only 1 sells after 6 months. I want to return the other 1,999. On the flip side if PA is concerned that my book is so lousy they don't want to take a chance on having that situation arise -- why did they publish it in the first place?

I've vented enough. Thanks for your encouragement,
and responding.

Bruce

*********

yet again another one who "missed" the small print where it said that PA books were non-returnable...

*sigh*
 

Sher2

Re: Winnah part 2

<and the ugly truth rears it's head...
PA is going to kill this thread.>


I've been following that with interest today. I'm just surprised it wasn't nipped in the bud with the poor guy's first post. Oh, wait, I know -- everybody at PA is busy today with editing, sales, and answering inquiries.
 

KW

Looks like

PA posted this. Neve seen this person on the board before, and with no book listed it makes me wonder if PA is posing as an author again.

"rlfulgham



7/16/2004
23:48:24
Subject: Shock and trauma at Barnes & Noble


Message:
Have any of you considered yourself fortunate not to be displayed in brick & mortar bookstores? I spent yesterday at a local Barnes & Noble and was appalled by what I saw pretending to be great literature. Virtually all of the heavily promoted, Big New-York-Publisher books were politcally correct to an absurdity that made me laugh. Great literature, in my modest opinion, has always been an underground art, carefully protected from commericalism by its very eclectic nature. Only the wise buy wise books. Only the literate buy literary books. So, my PA brothers and sisters, lift your heads up and thank God you are not among the posturing fakes and phoneys published by the Five Big New York publishing corportations that control 80% of all books published in the USA. We at least have a democratic publisher, and the cream will rise to the top. This in my opinon - but I am 56 years old and I've seen this nation fall from the world literay giant to the pitiful producer of trash it is today. So lift those chins! Carry yourself with pride! We are the best because we are not bad enough to sell to the tastless Big New York Five. Deo Vindici! God bless M. N. Prather for her truly democratic ethics."

That last sentence really got me:rofl Wonder id this is not from Prather herself?

Kevin
 

aka eraser

Re: Looks like

I wonder if there's any chance, however remote, that this person's tongue was planted firmly in cheek and is actually a dig at PA? I mean it's so preposterous. Probably wishful thinking on my part.

I have little doubt it will be met with a chorus of huzzah's from the faithful choir though.
 

DaveKuzminski

PA supporters

I suspect that a very few PA supporters are paid to do so. At most, there are two or three of them along with some office staff members deliberately posing as authors.

As to the other supporters, especially among the frequent posters at the PA bulletin board, some of them are deluded, some are afraid to speak differently, and some don't know any better.

To be honest, there are some individuals among the frequent posters at PA's bulletin board who do make comments that are not in agreement, full or otherwise, with PA. However, they tend to be short-lived in that environment.
 
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