Non-fantastic fantasy

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Alexandra Little

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Like Liosse, I think those are both tropes. I can't say whether one is fantastic or not because the whole story, at least to me, is what determines that.
 
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...throwing a whole jeep high enough to catch a fighter jet?

So IYO is there any point at which unrealism passes the border of the fantastic?


It's the kind of unrealism, not the degree, that decides whether something is fantasy or not. You could throw that jeep into space, and it still wouldn't be fantasy to me.
 

ClareGreen

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But I'm not asking anyone to set points and limits for all readers though. I think this thread might have been interpreted to have a higher concept than it does, and maybe I phrased the question poorly... my basic questions are:

1) For you, as a reader, is there some point when sheer unrealism qualifies a story as fantastic?

and

2) If yes, what is that point? For example, is 'teenage girl rips apart bear jaws and sews her shredded guts back in' fantastic? And if not, then is 'army guy works out and gets so strong he takes out an enemy fighter jet by throwing a jeep at it' fantastic?

I'm just looking for people's personal opinions on what the limits are and not a universal definition.

Personal opinions are easier.

1) You're looking for the point known as 'Jumping the Shark'. I can accept a certain amount of coincidence, I can accept a certain amount of toughness and so on; I can't accept blatant violations of the laws of physics/biology/probability. Meeting your next door neighbour halfway across the world on holiday at random seems to happen; but if it happens every time you go on holiday for ten years, to different parts of the world, there needs to be a reason.

2) Teenage girl ripping apart bear jaws? Give her a big enough lever and a weak enough bear, maybe. Sews her own guts back in? She'd better have been portrayed as a tough, cool, calm and collected customer before that, and it had better take hours, hurt like hell and cost her dearly, but I could buy it.

However, someone throwing a jeep at a fighter jet and downing it? That would be the laws of physics again. Besides, a decent-sized stone could do the job if you could get it high enough at the right time, you wouldn't need more than a ton of vehicle. The problems are with an unaugmented human a) lifting the jeep, b) throwing the jeep, c) judging the relative speed of the jet, d) judging the angle of approach, e) timing everything precisely right and f) getting the pilot to fly low enough that anything someone threw could hit in the first place. There are so many variables to keep track of, including the one that says the pilot has to be an idiot to start with, that you could give the chap a rifle - or even a crossbow - and because I know what foreign objects can do to jet engines I'd still find it more believable than a man throwing a jeep and bringing down a fast jet. To me, that's not even fantasy, that's just ludicrous.
 

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...throwing a whole jeep high enough to catch a fighter jet?

So IYO is there any point at which unrealism passes the border of the fantastic?

Depends on the mechanism behind throwing the jeep. If the person throwing it is superstrong because of genetics or mumbo-jumbo scientific advancements, it's science fiction.

If the person throwing it is superstrong because of magic (or blessed by god/gods, etc.), then it's fantasy.

Unreality can equal speculative fiction, if there's an underlying cause. If there is no underlying cause, then it's bad storytelling (IMNSHO).
 

glutton

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Depends on the mechanism behind throwing the jeep. If the person throwing it is superstrong because of genetics or mumbo-jumbo scientific advancements, it's science fiction.

If the person throwing it is superstrong because of magic (or blessed by god/gods, etc.), then it's fantasy.

Unreality can equal speculative fiction, if there's an underlying cause. If there is no underlying cause, then it's bad storytelling (IMNSHO).

What if the underlying cause is that the laws of biology in that universe allow for such things to happen, would that make it a 'fantasy' universe?

Personal opinions are easier.

1) You're looking for the point known as 'Jumping the Shark'. I can accept a certain amount of coincidence, I can accept a certain amount of toughness and so on; I can't accept blatant violations of the laws of physics/biology/probability. Meeting your next door neighbour halfway across the world on holiday at random seems to happen; but if it happens every time you go on holiday for ten years, to different parts of the world, there needs to be a reason.

2) Teenage girl ripping apart bear jaws? Give her a big enough lever and a weak enough bear, maybe. Sews her own guts back in? She'd better have been portrayed as a tough, cool, calm and collected customer before that, and it had better take hours, hurt like hell and cost her dearly, but I could buy it.

However, someone throwing a jeep at a fighter jet and downing it? That would be the laws of physics again. Besides, a decent-sized stone could do the job if you could get it high enough at the right time, you wouldn't need more than a ton of vehicle. The problems are with an unaugmented human a) lifting the jeep, b) throwing the jeep, c) judging the relative speed of the jet, d) judging the angle of approach, e) timing everything precisely right and f) getting the pilot to fly low enough that anything someone threw could hit in the first place. There are so many variables to keep track of, including the one that says the pilot has to be an idiot to start with, that you could give the chap a rifle - or even a crossbow - and because I know what foreign objects can do to jet engines I'd still find it more believable than a man throwing a jeep and bringing down a fast jet. To me, that's not even fantasy, that's just ludicrous.

Okay, but at the point where a universe is completely unbelievable to you by our laws of physics/biology etc, could it be considered to be an alternate fantastic universe with different laws? BTW the girl would be doing it to a giant bear with her bare hands, grabbing it by the teeth.

It's the kind of unrealism, not the degree, that decides whether something is fantasy or not. You could throw that jeep into space, and it still wouldn't be fantasy to me.

So what would it be? Superhero fiction (which IMO is either sci-fi or fantasy, or both, unless the heroes are non super-powered)? What kind of unrealism is required for fantasy IYO?

I'm surprised by the reactions to the jeep example. For me, if I saw somebody throw a jeep in a story (if they consistently display the strength to do so), it would seem so over-the-top unrealistic that I would instinctively consider it 'fantastic'.
 

glutton

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Despite the fact Rose was more like Superman than Conan

BTW how is Rose more like Superman than Conan, she probably has a similar level of strength/speed to comic Conan... it's only her damage soak that's wildly superhuman.
 

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What if the underlying cause is that the laws of biology in that universe allow for such things to happen, would that make it a 'fantasy' universe?

I'd probably label it science fiction, if that was the only change from our world.

Kind of like faster-than-light travel. As far as we know, our universe doesn't allow for such things, so books that do are really set in another universe that does allow for FTL travel.

Throwing a jeep wouldn't bother me, if there was a reason for the ability.

If there's no hint that the world is different than ours, and someone picks up a jeep and throws it in a novel, yes, that would trip off my suspension of disbelief, unless everyone else in the novel is equally amazed and there's an explanation later that solves this puzzle for the readers and the characters. If there's not, then I'll get upset and chuck the book against the wall.

If there is a hint that the world is different than ours (i.e., superheros are real), then I have no issue with someone chucking a jeep.

The thing is, if you trip my suspension of disbelief, I do not slide over to, "Oh, it's fantasy." I slide to, "Oh, it's crappy writing." I'm quite willing to suspend my disbelief for fantasy novels. I do it all the time. But the world must be internally consistent. I can handle magical realism just fine, but then again, the world is set up so that the liminal is possible and normal. If the world is set up so that only normal is normal, and then the author throws in gratuitous weirdness, then: book-->wall.
 

glutton

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I'd probably label it science fiction, if that was the only change from our world.

Kind of like faster-than-light travel. As far as we know, our universe doesn't allow for such things, so books that do are really set in another universe that does allow for FTL travel.

Throwing a jeep wouldn't bother me, if there was a reason for the ability.

If there's no hint that the world is different than ours, and someone picks up a jeep and throws it in a novel, yes, that would trip off my suspension of disbelief, unless everyone else in the novel is equally amazed and there's an explanation later that solves this puzzle for the readers and the characters. If there's not, then I'll get upset and chuck the book against the wall.

If there is a hint that the world is different than ours (i.e., superheros are real), then I have no issue with someone chucking a jeep.

The thing is, if you trip my suspension of disbelief, I do not slide over to, "Oh, it's fantasy." I slide to, "Oh, it's crappy writing." I'm quite willing to suspend my disbelief for fantasy novels. I do it all the time. But the world must be internally consistent. I can handle magical realism just fine, but then again, the world is set up so that the liminal is possible and normal. If the world is set up so that only normal is normal, and then the author throws in gratuitous weirdness, then: book-->wall.

Hmm... well I've never written this 'jeep' story so I'm not entirely sure what the reason would be... but what if it was written in a whimsical 'tall tale' kind of style like from the beginning 'Bob the soldier was a very strong boy. At 8 years old Bob uprooted the baby tree out back and tilted it down gently to rescue his sister who was stuck at the top' and then Bob gets stronger and stronger until he can chuck jeeps into space... would such a tall tale seem like fantasy to you?
 
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So what would it be? Superhero fiction (which IMO is either sci-fi or fantasy, or both, unless the heroes are non super-powered)? What kind of unrealism is required for fantasy IYO?

I'm surprised by the reactions to the jeep example. For me, if I saw somebody throw a jeep in a story (if they consistently display the strength to do so), it would seem so over-the-top unrealistic that I would instinctively consider it 'fantastic'.


It's not fantastic, just ridiculous. Someone throwing a jeep to hit a jet-plane is not going to targeted at a Fantasy audience. Unless there's a whole Urban Fantasy background setting. But you haven't implied that there is.
 

glutton

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It's not fantastic, just ridiculous. Someone throwing a jeep to hit a jet-plane is not going to targeted at a Fantasy audience. Unless there's a whole Urban Fantasy background setting. But you haven't implied that there is.

I'm not really asking about the audience... ridiculous or not, if you had to give a genre, what would it be?

I mean technically wouldn't you classify a Wonder Woman comic as basically fantasy, and a Superman comic basically sci-fi?
 

amergina

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I'm not really asking about the audience... ridiculous or not, if you had to give a genre, what would it be?

I mean technically wouldn't you classify a Wonder Woman comic as basically fantasy, and a Superman comic basically sci-fi?

I'd classify them as speculative fiction, and be done with it.

It's hairs at that point.
 

glutton

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I'd classify them as speculative fiction, and be done with it.

It's hairs at that point.

Well I'm not putting emphasis on classifying superheroes as particular types of SF, but I was more asking Liosse if 'jeep throw man' would at least be considered speculative fiction himself.
 
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I'm not really asking about the audience... ridiculous or not, if you had to give a genre, what would it be?

I mean technically wouldn't you classify a Wonder Woman comic as basically fantasy, and a Superman comic basically sci-fi?

Hmm... Superman is definitely sci-fi. Wonder Woman is... maybe kinda fantasy, I guess?


I'd call your story sci-fi as presented here under these terms, I suppose.
 

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Have you created an alternate world? I think that is what most fantasy readers expect, whether it be a secondary world or a hidden world within our world as seen in UF.

So if you have done extensive world building to determine how this altered biology would affect how society was formed and so on. I'd say this is fantasy. You've changed something in our world and have speculated on what its affects would be.

But if you are just using our world but want to have some over-the-top action scenes that you know are unrealistic but you want to explain it with biology works different here but not explore how that would change things, then you are not writing fantasy.
 

micahprose

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This is a great discussion btw. I was preparing a blog entry on this same topic but decided to shelve it, only to unearth it now. It takes on its original title: 'Trans-Genre'. Sci-fi or fantasy, isn't extensive world building a trait exhibited by either genre, almost interchangeably? The details around which the plot revolves can be easily manipulated to suit the conventions of each genre, which is dictated only by publishers as a means to convince the readers of what is saleable on the market. Nevertheless there are certainly better ways to sell a book, whether publishers are aware of it or not.

For example, I can just come up with any plot at the drop of the hat which can suit any or no classifications at the same time. There shouldn't be a limit to creativity, especially when it's reduced to mere naming conventions. Suspend your prejudices for a moment and examine these cases in point: From the far reaches of the Andromeda galaxy comes a newborn elf who lands on Earth and grows up among humans. He assumes the role of detective devoted to solving mysteries in the Victorian Era with his assitant, Dr Watson against their main adversary, an alien criminal mastermind. Through the course of the story, he falls in love with a human and his mission to fight crime is posterior to his new found romance. It's elementary, really.

Case #2: Fifty Shades of Grey tells the story of Christian Grey, the Casanova, the paramour, the Earth-bound elf. His sexual prowess lures many dames to bed until he encounters the innocent Anastasia. Through a series of erotic escapades, she begins to draw out his elfish qualities which once lay dormant.

Case #3: The War in Middle Earth stretches to the vast recesses of space. Elves, humans and wizards battle Sauron, the Alien descended from Andromeda. His hordes of 'orcs', or Predators storm Middle Earth. Now the Narsil and Sting are pitted against the Predators' retractable spear and the Palantir against Predator's Infrared Vision. What if this is the story that JRR originally intended before publishers appealed to him to make the plot more palatable to audiences? Something to think about.

Case #4: Extra-terrestrial Romeo and Juliet scenario where she is Andromedan and the former is human. Their ardent love for one another is challenged by the vendetta between aliens and humans, who come to a truce only after their children's demise.

Where would you classify these stories? Publishers would ultimately reject them because they are trans-genre (tm) fiction, neither classified as romance nor sci-fi, despite the fact that it has the potential to garner a huge fan base. Entertainment, isn't that what literature should be about?

Staying within established conventions in media can be juxtaposed to a GenYer returning to 1982. It'll probably look like this:
Gen Y: "Hey I'm outside your house."
Gen X: "How'd you find me so quickly?"
Gen Y: "Easy, I just Googled your house on my phone."
Gen X: "You have a phone?"

You get the idea. The saying proves true that reality is stranger than fiction. If the course of our daily lives can be altered so rapidly in the span of a few years and the status quo rendered obsolete at the newest advancement in science and philosophy, all the more should media be progressive in affording us humble scribes the creative licence to do our own thing.
 

Ian Isaro

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glutton said:
So IYO is there any point at which unrealism passes the border of the fantastic?
I wouldn't put genres on a continuum of unrealism at all because the approach matters too much. You might be able to get a continuum of approaches, though that'd be hard to quantify. Your initial examples work fine for that.

If there seems to be a consistent system that differs from our world, then it might feel like fantasy. A few unrealistic deeds in isolation are not, but if we see other examples (like the incredibly strong smith or an unrealistically fast fighter) then I'd assume there was a magic system in the background. Magic doesn't have to be spells and fire to be magic.

But if things aren't consistent, I might assume that the author is just ignorant or throwing realism to the winds because they think their character is just so awesome.

Alternatively, a different tone could take it into heroic myth. I expect reality to be relaxed if I'm reading about a character like Beowulf or Hercules.

glutton said:
I'm surprised by the reactions to the jeep example. For me, if I saw somebody throw a jeep in a story (if they consistently display the strength to do so), it would seem so over-the-top unrealistic that I would instinctively consider it 'fantastic'.
There's a pretty big difference between "fantastic" and "fantasy."
 

jjdebenedictis

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1) For you, as a reader, is there some point when sheer unrealism qualifies a story as fantastic?
1) Yes.
2) If yes, what is that point?
2) It depends on the book.
For example, is 'teenage girl rips apart bear jaws and sews her shredded guts back in' fantastic?
Here's where I start to feel tetchy about the discussion, because here's where it seems like you're asking us to give our opinions on your book, and we haven't read your book. We can't judge it. The only explanation you've given for why this stuff happens is, "Well, it just does."

We can't judge that. Your examples aren't specific enough to move the discussion forward.

Is the story of a woman who rips apart bear jaws and sews her guts back in thanks to her nanotech-strengthened body and immune system a fantasy story? No.

Is the story of a woman who rips apart bear jaws and sews her guts back in thanks to the strength and fortitude bestowed on her by a mad god a fantasy story? Yes.
 
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Putputt

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The thing is, if you trip my suspension of disbelief, I do not slide over to, "Oh, it's fantasy." I slide to, "Oh, it's crappy writing." I'm quite willing to suspend my disbelief for fantasy novels. I do it all the time. But the world must be internally consistent. I can handle magical realism just fine, but then again, the world is set up so that the liminal is possible and normal. If the world is set up so that only normal is normal, and then the author throws in gratuitous weirdness, then: book-->wall.

This. To me what you have described sounds like wish-fulfillment fantasy. :D
 

glutton

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Alternatively, a different tone could take it into heroic myth. I expect reality to be relaxed if I'm reading about a character like Beowulf or Hercules.

This is basically what I'm thinking of.

The only explanation you've given for why this stuff happens is, "Well, it just does."

The explanation I've given is that the universe it happens in has different laws of biology than ours.

To me what you have described sounds like wish-fulfillment fantasy. :D

Which has the word 'fantasy' in it. ;)
 

RichardGarfinkle

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The explanation I've given is that the universe it happens in has different laws of biology than ours.

This is a subtle point.
In our universe there aren't any independent laws of biology.
Biology is a consequence of Chemistry which is a consequence of Physics.

You can have different underlying laws but they need to go deeper then biology or you need a universe where biology is separate in some sense from other principles.

Or you can not worry about it and just say weird stuff happens. Your earlier tall tale example fits this just fine.

In a sense the definitional problem starts when you try to offer explanations. Certain explanations feel scientific (even if they aren't), others feel fantastic, others are simply dramatic or superheroic (a person who pushes him or her self in training and thus goes beyond the normal human limits is superheroic).

But these are stylistic differences more than anything else. What is treated as SF, what is treated as fantasy, what is treated as superheroics is not defined by what people do in the stories but in how they are presented.
 

ClareGreen

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There's a massive difference between the fantasy genre and wish-fulfillment fantasy. One may echo through into the other and the edges may blur, but you're conflating them as though they're the same thing - and they aren't. In the process, you're insulting a lot of people who aren't writing wish-fulfillment fantasy, and even those who are who're taking care to keep it within the bounds of possibility in the worlds they've chosen to create - and you're getting a harsh reaction from us because of it. You'd probably get a similar reaction if you walked into Historical and asked them if you could have Romulus, Spartacus, Ben Hur, Jesus and Pope John Paul II meet the same ordinary bloke - I mean, they're all history and something to do with the Romans, right?

You're redefining the genre we love in order to make your point, and you're giving the impression that you perceive fantasy as 'lesser' than you because of the point you just made. Stop it. If you want a debate we can have one, but if you want to make a straw man to attack, go and do it somewhere else.
 

glutton

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There's a massive difference between the fantasy genre and wish-fulfillment fantasy. One may echo through into the other and the edges may blur, but you're conflating them as though they're the same thing - and they aren't. In the process, you're insulting a lot of people who aren't writing wish-fulfillment fantasy, and even those who are who're taking care to keep it within the bounds of possibility in the worlds they've chosen to create - and you're getting a harsh reaction from us because of it. You'd probably get a similar reaction if you walked into Historical and asked them if you could have Romulus, Spartacus, Ben Hur, Jesus and Pope John Paul II meet the same ordinary bloke - I mean, they're all history and something to do with the Romans, right?

You're redefining the genre we love in order to make your point, and you're giving the impression that you perceive fantasy as 'lesser' than you because of the point you just made. Stop it. If you want a debate we can have one, but if you want to make a straw man to attack, go and do it somewhere else.

I didn't say all fantasy is wish-fulfillment fantasy, just that the latter should qualify as 'fantasy' of some type... why so defensive about it? How does my point insinuate that fantasy is 'lesser'... than ME? Insulting? What is even being 'attacked'? Refining the genre - so we're not allowed to have our own opinions of where the edges lie? I don't know how you can be riled up so easily by differing opinions by what should be included in a genre.

I could act all 'angry' that some don't feel superhuman warriors qualify as fantasy and objectively, it wouldn't be any less valid. I find it a little unimaginative that you define 'wish-fulfillment fantasy' as strictly inferior to other forms of fantasy (by saying it's an insult to even associate it with them) and so strongly oppose a not traditionally considered form (tall tales) being included in fantasy.
 
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RichardGarfinkle

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I didn't say all fantasy is wish-fulfillment fantasy, just that the latter should qualify as 'fantasy' of some type... why so defensive about it? How does my point insinuate that fantasy is 'lesser'... than ME? Insulting? What is even being 'attacked'? Refining the genre - so we're not allowed to have our own opinions of where the edges lie? I don't know how you can be riled up so easily by differing opinions by what should be included in a genre.

I could act all 'angry' that some don't feel superhuman warriors qualify as fantasy and objectively, it wouldn't be any less valid. I find it a little unimaginative that you define 'wish-fulfillment fantasy' as strictly inferior to other forms of fantasy (by saying it's an insult to even associate it with them) and so strongly oppose a not traditionally considered form (tall tales) being included in fantasy.

A wish fulfillment fantasy need not contain a single impossible element. A story where an author insert character marries a character inspired by the person they loved and lost is a wish fulfillment. A story where an author insert gets to be wealthy, or president, or save the world in a dramatic fashion, or kills people they hate can all be wish fulfillment.

None of those need to have one deviation from the laws of physics as we understand them.

Fantasy as genre does not mean the same thing as fantasy as something one imagines in ones mind. If the latter constituted fantasy then all writing (even non-fiction) would be fantasy.
 

glutton

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I didn't know that was the definition of wish fulfillment fantasy meant when I replied to Putputt... I thought he/she just meant fantasy that was wish fulfillment.

ClareGreen assumed I know what all these terms specifically refer to, but I was responding based on what I intuitively figured to be meant.
 
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