Evidence for Buddha?

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Bartholomew

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To be honest, I've never really researched my own religion's main figure outside of the Pali Canon and a number of other Buddhist texts.

Is there any reason to doubt that Siddhartha Gotama (later given the title Buddha) existed?
 

Wayne K

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Is there any to doubt he didn't?

Wait, what?
 

Bartholomew

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Is there any to doubt he didn't?

Wait, what?

When he was alive, no one wrote anything down. So everything in the Pali Canon was passed on orally for several generations (at least) before any of it was transcribed. That leaves some room for doubt.

We're questioning Jesus. Why not Buddha? :)
 

AMCrenshaw

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To be honest, I've never really researched my own religion's main figure outside of the Pali Canon and a number of other Buddhist texts.

Is there any reason to doubt that Siddhartha Gotama (later given the title Buddha) existed?

Bartholomew, a good question: Yes, I think there's good reason to doubt, because beyond the gossip of the Pali Canon, I don't think there's one grain of evidence to say he existed.

That shouldn't really be important to a Buddhist; however, that's just my opinion.
 

Maxx

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To be honest, I've never really researched my own religion's main figure outside of the Pali Canon and a number of other Buddhist texts.

Is there any reason to doubt that Siddhartha Gotama (later given the title Buddha) existed?

It seems to me that both in the case of SG and JC there was some original character at the bottom of all the stories. With JC (as with King Arthur, a similar redeemer king) there seem to be layers of other interpretation packed around the original character -- not to mention that in the case of King Arthur and JC there are other people with the same name (as in Which Jesus do you mean? Ben Sirac or Mister Christ?) in the period.
 

AMCrenshaw

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It seems to me that both in the case of SG and JC there was some original character at the bottom of all the stories. With JC (as with King Arthur, a similar redeemer king) there seem to be layers of other interpretation packed around the original character -- not to mention that in the case of King Arthur and JC there are other people with the same name (as in Which Jesus do you mean? Ben Sirac or Mister Christ?) in the period.

Perhaps there is one Siddhartha, but I'm more willing to bet he never existed, is instead a character in a story, and not altogether different to a god (instead he advises gods: the Buddha is the teaching, rather than the human being). The oral mythology of any given sangha likely intended to follow from "skillful means," while the context of the mythology is "teaching" or the transmission of what are not historical facts. If there are historical facts conveyed, I suspect these are incidentally conveyed. What is included in the teachings are poetic expressions, doctrine*, philosophic investigations and perhaps most importantly, the laying down of values and modes of conduct.




*At the same time, IMO, some of the narratives in Buddhist mythology are so allegorical (and fantastic in nature) that one would have to believe first (or suspend disbelief) in cosmic karma to think of them as historically accurate.
 

Ruv Draba

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I think there can be Christianity even if we don't believe in a mythologised Joshua ben Joseph, and there can be Buddhism even if we don't believe in a mythologised Siddhartha Gotama.

Mythologised stories have a practiced, theatrical feel to them, and that's certainly the case with the stories of Buddha. Like the tales told of the Zoroastrian saviour Saoshyant, and his mythological successor Joshua ben Joseph, the stories of Siddhartha Gotama speak more of divine birthright than secular wisdom gained by trial and error. All three saviours are Campbellian in scope and grandeur, their lives full of carefully-constructed tests to demonstrate their unparallelled sagacity, power and charisma.

But just as Christianity would be a different thing if it didn't depend on the mythological truth of Jesus, I think that Buddhism would be a different thing if it didn't rely on the mythological truth of Buddha. In each case, I think each teaching would be more accountable for its thought, more restrained in its claims, and perhaps more open to other ideas. Naturally, given my secular humanistic perspective, I'd consider that an improvement.
 

AMCrenshaw

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But just as Christianity would be a different thing if it didn't depend on the mythological truth of Jesus, I think that Buddhism would be a different thing if it didn't rely on the mythological truth of Buddha. In each case, I think each teaching would be more accountable for its thought, more restrained in its claims, and perhaps more open to other ideas. Naturally, given my secular humanistic perspective, I'd consider that an improvement.

I think you're correct, and I think the Buddhist scriptures agree. As I'd kind of alluded to in my last post, the teaching (the Buddha) is conveyed by the sangha, from one community to the next. This means, in effect, that 'the Buddha' has the possibility to change, and of course it does, to a degree. To what extent is up to the sanghas. This teaching, and - along with that - the degree to which they rely upon mythological and traditional truths is their responsibility from the very beginning.


(Oh, I'm thinking of Spinoza again, ever-polishing his lenses so he could see nature more clearly!)
 
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Bartholomew

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Some branches of Mahayana Buddhism, at least, work if you assume that Buddhas are mythological, and made from spiritual unobtainium. The Bodhisatva Ideal, a Mahayana concept, is basically a mode of behavior where one refuses to attain perfect happiness until everyone else has done so. One could argue that such people just haven't realized that they're going after the impossible.

Of course, one of the most prolific branches of Buddhism says that everyone can become enlightened in this lifetime, but their dogma is somewhat esoteric.
 

Rufus Coppertop

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To be honest, I've never really researched my own religion's main figure outside of the Pali Canon and a number of other Buddhist texts.

Is there any reason to doubt that Siddhartha Gotama (later given the title Buddha) existed?

Who cares? Just get on with a bit of dharma practice, whatever your lineage happens to be!

There is the old metaphor of Buddhism being like a boat. You use it as a vehicle to cross the ocean of samsara. In itself it is not the truth. It is merely a means by which you arrive at a state where you can see the truth for yourself. This metaphor has been floating around the dharma for ages.

Jump in the boat and see if it floats. Don't worry about whether the boat was designed by a single buddha or by a committee of Brahmans or whomever. If it floats and you like it, use it. If you don't, find a different boat or don't go sailing.
 
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stephenf

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I am an atheist,however ,I do believe it can be difficult to be a thinking human being without some kind of structure, to the way we think about things.I have lived in India, and still a regular visitor . I know how deep belief can be .To ask this question probably means you are moving away from Buddhism,if you are one, and joining the more enlightened .
 
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Rufus Coppertop

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.To ask this question probably means you are moving away from Buddhism,if you are one, and joining the more enlightened .

Presuming that a lack of Buddhism in particular or of any religion or spirituality in general, automatically confers a higher degree of enlightenment.
 
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stephenf

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Presuming that a lack of Buddhism in particular or of any religion or spirituality in general, automatically confers a higher degree of enlightenment.

Automatic enlightenment.I could start a new religion, If that was on offer.

I prefer the enlightenment that is defined by western philosophy ,rather than Buddhism.The questioning of traditional institutions,customs ,morals and a strong belief in rationality and science.
 

Rufus Coppertop

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It's not necessarily an either/or thing. One does not necessarily preclude the other and Western philosophy is not a monolith devoid of religious, theological or spiritual concerns.
 

Rufus Coppertop

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I agree ,Western philosophy is open to all kinds of Ideas, but, Buddhism is not.
To become a Buddhist is to commit mental suicide.
There are lots of people in the west who embrace Religions like Buddhism in the mistaken belief that it is life enhancing.Buddhism is totalitarian in out look.It is a philosophy the believes individualism and freedom of thought is for the unenlightened,The poor souls that are doomed to remain on the wheel of life and never transcend to becoming a god.

Well that's a funny thing!

Since commiting mental suicide I've studied harmony, counterpoint and harpsichord technique at university as well as doing three years of Latin and getting high distinctions for the same all the way through.

I must be a highly competent zombie!

Braaaaains! Braaaaaaaaains!
 

stephenf

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Well that's a funny thing!

Since commiting mental suicide I've studied harmony, counterpoint and harpsichord technique at university as well as doing three years of Latin and getting high distinctions for the same all the way through.



!
Well done...You have not become a complete Buddhist,there is still hope .
 

Rufus Coppertop

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Well done...You have not become a complete Buddhist,there is still hope .

You can't know that for sure.

Maybe you don't know as much about Buddhism as you think you do. Maybe Buddhism, like Western philosophy, is not quite the totalitarian monolith you take it to be.
 

stephenf

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-You can't know that for sure.
Maybe you don't know as much about Buddhism as you think you do.
Maybe Buddhism is not quite the totalitarian monolith you take it to be.

It is interesting that you felt the need to defend yourself.

To understand Buddhism, there is a need to understand and believe in the concept of anatman or anatta. According to this doctrine there is no self.The individual existence ,the personality or ego is a delusion.

I personal Don't believe it,but if you do,I wish you well in your quest to obtain the sate of nonexistence.
 

Rufus Coppertop

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It is interesting that you felt the need to defend yourself.

Should I interpret this allegation as a need to attack on your part?

To understand Buddhism, there is a need to understand and believe in the concept of anatman or anatta. According to this doctrine there is no self.The individual existence ,the personality or ego is a delusion.
There is no self as a substantial, abiding entity. What we take to be self is a dynamic process.

I personal Don't believe it,but if you do,I wish you well in your quest to obtain the sate of nonexistence.
I am no such quest. Neither are any of the fellow Buddhists I practice with and none of the teachers in my lineage suggest the desirability of nihilism.

If you think that all Buddhists are on such a quest, then you have perhaps mistaken Buddhism for a totalitarian monolith.
 
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ColoradoGuy

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Well done...You have not become a complete Buddhist,there is still hope .

Let's back off on the sarcasm, please. We don't do that in this room.

I'm no expert on Buddhism, but what I do know is that there are many different varieties of it. So generalizations about it are problematic. So are generalizations about people.
 

Diana Hignutt

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Well done...You have not become a complete Buddhist,there is still hope .

That is the most condenscending thing I've read from an atheist in more than a week. Very good.

You have a delightful, fantatical zeal for a militant atheist, I'll give you that.
 

SarahMacManus

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I agree ,Western philosophy is open to all kinds of Ideas, but, Buddhism is not.
To become a Buddhist is to commit mental suicide.
There are lots of people in the west who embrace Religions like Buddhism in the mistaken belief that it is life enhancing.Buddhism is totalitarian in outlook.It is a philosophy the believes individualism and freedom of thought is for the unenlightened,The poor souls that are doomed to remain on the wheel of life and never transcend to becoming a god.

I've been a practicing Buddhist for 8 years - you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

And by the way, Buddhists are atheists as well.
 

stephenf

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I've been a practicing Buddhist for 8 years - you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

You may be right about my lack of knowledge ,but to simply state the number of years you have been a Buddhist to some justify your statement ?.I lived in a monastery in varnasy ,Utta Predesh.Not far from Sarnath.I enjoyed the experience but I also learnt the Buddhism is just a collection of mythes and fabricated ides that have been cobbled together over possibly thousands of years.

And by the way, Buddhists are atheists as well.

It is true that some Buddhists do not believe in a god and would describe the belief in a deity as a obstacle to obtaining nirvana or arahathood.But, to say Buddhists are atheists?
 

stephenf

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That is the most condenscending thing I've read from an atheist in more than a week. Very good.

You have a delightful, fantatical zeal for a militant atheist, I'll give you that.

Thanks
 
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