Delusions of Gender -- Must read for everybody, but especially genderqueers

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So, is this just the nature vs. nurture debate falling on the nurture side?

I would say rather, we don't have near enough data to know what it is.

There needs to be a lot more research, including new twin research.

We also have much better fMRI methods and equipment now, including better software to interpret the raw scan data.
 

kuwisdelu

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That one in First Nations has roughly 2500 years of object history behind it.

And the most famous example comes from my tribe. :cool:

We also have much better fMRI methods and equipment now, including better software to interpret the raw scan data.

As someone who works with biological imaging data (though not fMRI specifically), dealing with the sources of variation is an absolute bitch. And the statistical tools still aren't ready yet.
 

mayqueen

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Wow. I just realized this entire time I have been thinking of Cynthia Epstein's Deceptive Distinctions and have not even heard of Delusions of Gender. ARGH. Reading comprehension FAIL.
 

CharacterInWhite

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Except she ignores evidence that contradicts her assertions; for instance, that no studies about gender and MRI have screened for neurological disorders.

She ignores the fact that one of the studies she cites used exclusively deaf people who were fluent in sign.

Different forms of sign are as different as different spoken languages; in order to look at gender issues you'd need to differentiate the fMRIs for various kinds of sign—at which point you have a useless sample.

That's pretty shitty research. It's the research of someone with an agenda; it's one reason you won't see her cited in peer reviewed journals.

I think that there are far too many variables for anyone to take just about any of the current research seriously.

Part of the point of using brain scanning studies that don't look at gender is that the experimenters no longer have a confirmation bias.

When a study is conducted for the purpose of analysing gender, the experimenters are going to look for a difference. If they find one, be it coincidental or genuinely experimental (more often the former), they publish it. But if they fail, they assume that the error is in their method, not their theory, and they don't publish it. The result is a giant majority of studies that can't properly assert differences between men and women that go unpublished.

By looking at studies where gender is irrelevant, you can mine their data for gender differences. And that's where you start to find little or no difference at all--because you can't measure a difference in something where there is no difference in the first place.

Edit: The difference to which I refer is in capability. I am not dismissing transfolk, because identification with gender is a slough of variables. In my case, I go with genderqueer over male because I find many female aesthetics to be desirable to be rather than have in a partner, but that in no way affects my capability to perform math or identify emotions in someone's face.
 

Kitty27

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I have always been curious about gender and the expression of it.

I am a straight female but all my life,I have been called "mannish". My ex husband called me a man in a dress!

I don't exhibit supposedly feminine traits in my personality. I don't muck about with my speech. I say what I mean and mean every word of it. I don't apologize or use a hesitant manner when challenging someone. I will tell you off right quick and in harsh terms. I am not afraid to take it there. I quite like gun porn in magazines. I am quick to fight. To this day,I will lay hands on my brothers without hesitation. But then they have never treated me as a girl in the first place. I was and still am seen as the "fourth" brother.

I actually had to tell them not to barge in on me in my room or the bathroom. They literally see me as one of them with no differences whatsoever.

About the only way feminine traits come through is in my super girly Goth way of dressing. My mother is the same way. She's dressed to the nines always but in many ways,she was the "man" of our family. She handled the money,ran the household and we all obeyed her every word. She took no mess from anybody and carried a gun in her purse. She stressed that a woman who didn't know how to change a tire or fire a gun was a complete simp*no shade to anyone who doesn't know how to do those things*

I know the traits I described can apply to both genders but all of these are supposedly masculine traits, especially in the South with its emphasis on delicate and quiet femininity. I won't even bring race into it and how Black women are often see differently in terms of gender/femininity.

With regards to myself,I would say I have a tremendous amount of what is deemed masculine behavior. I don't know if this is a result of being the only girl around boys or my mother's personality coming out in me. Maybe both.
 

little_e

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'Delicate and quiet femininity' are luxuries which have only ever been afforded by the well-off. The poor and the oppressed have to be strong.
 

kuwisdelu

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Perhaps not delicate, but there's no reason you can't have strong, quiet femininity.

You don't need to be loud to be strong.
 

Becca_H

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I don't think any number of studies will sufficiently identify what gender is. Individual differences are too extreme.

I've always felt that gender is mostly a social construct, even though as a trans girl that's an unusual opinion to have. But then again, if "boy things" and "girl things" are defined by societal stereotypes, why have I always had a strong aversion to the boy things? Maybe it's not the activity itself, but the male environment that comes with it. Maybe I would've liked to play football if it wasn't full of the male banter and other stuff that came with it. I really don't know.

It would be difficult for me to concisely and objectively explain why I transitioned. All I know is that I was a messed up, dysfunctional shell of a kid who had no vision of a future and wanted to look like and be treated like a girl. And when that happened, I was happy. But what percentage of society even question their gender, anyway. Maybe that's why it's so hard for the people who do.

I absolutely hate the "Impose stereotypes on a newborn" thing too. And I have no idea what I'm going to do when I have children. Part of me wants to define gender roles and encourage (but not force) engagement with the 'correct' one, so they can understand gender roles even if they aren't congruent with them. The other part wants to completely disregard gender roles and let my kids be who they are without any kind of societal definition. Either way, I can guarantee that a few who knows my history are going to tell me it's influencing my parenting negatively.
 

thebloodfiend

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Maybe I would've liked to play football if it wasn't full of the male banter and other stuff that came with it. I really don't know.
I think there are plenty of things I would've enjoyed if a) people hadn't told me I wasn't supposed to like them, or b) people hadn't tried to force them onto me. I think live and let live is a good one to apply to gender. I almost wish sex wasn't even revealed until puberty was over.

I've got a very quiet anger towards people in my family who've tried to force me to be one way or the other for their own twisted version of femininity. When I went to visit them this December, I was really close to telling some of them to shut the fuck up. Thankfully, I did not. But I think it's really damaging to try to force kids into little boxes. If the boy wants a barbie to put into a car, let him have it. And let him play with Dora if he wants. And if the girl doesn't want to wear the skirt, don't make her. And don't hit on that stupid "cross your legs" bit every single time they don't. <---Examples from my childhood.

Really, though, why are girls expected to have more manners and be more polite than guys? That has always annoyed me.
 

DancingMaenid

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Maybe I would've liked to play football if it wasn't full of the male banter and other stuff that came with it. I really don't know.

This is how I feel.

I think a lot of activities and spaces that are very "gendered" tend to promote very feminine or very masculine stereotypes or behavior. That not only alienates women who want to do "masculine" things and men who want to do "feminine" things, but also people who just aren't comfortable in environments like that, or don't fit the model.

Back when I started questioning my sexual orientation, I worried that maybe I wasn't really into women because I didn't find mainstream porn or things like Maxim and Playboy attractive. And more recently, I've struggled a little with what society sees as masculine, because I don't feel like I fit in. But I also don't fit in in very feminine environments.

Being trans can throw another cog in things, I think, because, at least for me, there's this nagging feeling sometimes that if I were really trans/genderqueer, then being a guy would be natural for me. But so much of what "being a guy" means is defined by society, and a lot of cis guys don't even fit the bill.
 

Kim Fierce

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If the boy wants a barbie to put into a car, let him have it. And let him play with Dora if he wants. And if the girl doesn't want to wear the skirt, don't make her..

Exactly. Those are things I let my son do without question, and others in my family are luckily the same way. But sometimes I see extended family on my wife's side tell our nephew to put down the doll and it makes me mad.
 

kuwisdelu

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If I had a son, and he wanted a Barbie, I'd say no, and buy him a doll with more realistic proportions.

Well, maybe. I guess if there were some Really Important Reason it had to be a Barbie, I might relent.

And how come it's fine to play with "action figures" but once they're not "action"-y they're suddenly not masculine? And if you think about it from a heteronormative perspective, wouldn't it make more sense to encourage young boys to play with female dolls, so they don't grow up to "play" with other men later in life? I know I always ended up taking Barbie's clothes off... :tongue
 

SomethingOrOther

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If I had a son, and he wanted a Barbie, I'd say no, and buy him a doll with more realistic proportions.

Grqbz.png
 

Rhoda Nightingale

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Why don't get him a My Little Pony? I hear they're very popular with the boys these days. ;) And more "action" oriented, as it happens. At least that's how I always played with them. *shrug*

Becca H said:
Maybe I would've liked to play football if it wasn't full of the male banter and other stuff that came with it. I really don't know.
And then there's this--I actually had the opposite experience in junior high. I loved football, and we always played co-ed games, but I hated most of the girls in my class so I preferred hanging out with the boys. Also, I tended to get picked first by the boys on the teams, because they knew they could count on me to knock the other girls down, when they'd been raised not to.
 

little_e

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If I had a son, and he wanted a Barbie, I'd say no, and buy him a doll with more realistic proportions.

Well, maybe. I guess if there were some Really Important Reason it had to be a Barbie, I might relent.

And how come it's fine to play with "action figures" but once they're not "action"-y they're suddenly not masculine? And if you think about it from a heteronormative perspective, wouldn't it make more sense to encourage young boys to play with female dolls, so they don't grow up to "play" with other men later in life? I know I always ended up taking Barbie's clothes off... :tongue

Have you perused the toy aisles lately? Barbie has some of the most realistic proportions available. (In dolls of that size, anyway. I suppose you could get the kid a realistically-proportioned baby doll, but it wouldn't exactly work with the car-driving-narrative.)

EG: http://www.target.com/p/monster-high-ghouls-rule-cleo-de-nile/-/A-14141929#prodSlot=medium_1_2
 

little_e

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Really, though, why are girls expected to have more manners and be more polite than guys? That has always annoyed me.
Speaking as a parent of two boys and one girl, almost 100% of my discipline efforts are aimed at getting the boys to be polite. Mostly not yelling and not fighting.

The baby often pays more attention to me saying 'Stop that!' than the boys do.

Trust me. If I could get them to do it, I would. Oh I would.
 

kkbe

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I think it's really damaging to try to force kids into little boxes. If the boy wants a barbie to put into a car, let him have it. And let him play with Dora if he wants. And if the girl doesn't want to wear the skirt, don't make her. And don't hit on that stupid "cross your legs" bit every single time they don't.

When I was student teaching, this was in a preschool, there was one little boy who delighted in dressing up in aprons and wearing jewelry like bracelets and necklaces. So what? What did I care? He was happy, he was learning through play, he was developing communication skills, he was socializing with his peers in a meaningful way.

But one day his father happened to show up and saw his kid wearing long pink gloves. He hit the flipping roof, yanked the kid aside, pulled off those gloves, whispered something that made the kid cry and pushed him over to the dump trucks. Now you tell me who had the problem. Stuff like that infuriates me. The kid was fucking THREE YEARS OLD.
 

little_e

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Interesting.
Oh yeah. Bratz upped the ante on odd proportions years ago. Now we have Monsters High, Novi Stars, Winx, La Dee Da, etc. I love a lot of the new designs, but realistically proportioned they certainly aren't.

Barbie was really on the outs a few years back, perceived as old-fashioned, dowdy, (the newer brands are much 'edgier',) and the target of a lot of feminist ire. Since then they've done some marketing image-repair, transformed themselves into a 'classic' line, even made better facial molds so that the black characters aren't just white dolls with darker skin tones.

In a toy aisle where the other dolls have abandoned human proportions altogether and fantastic themes, clothes, and colors rule the day, Barbie is definitely the most "realistic" major brand available.

Plus, on a practical note, in my experience, kids often care deeply about branding. They know the difference between a "real" princess doll and a knock-off princess, and the knock-off will often not be allowed to play. Heck, my kids aren't really comfortable with putting their Chuggington trains on the Thomas tracks.
 

little_e

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When I was student teaching, this was in a preschool, there was one little boy who delighted in dressing up in aprons and wearing jewelry like bracelets and necklaces. So what? What did I care? He was happy, he was learning through play, he was developing communication skills, he was socializing with his peers in a meaningful way.

But one day his father happened to show up and saw his kid wearing long pink gloves. He hit the flipping roof, yanked the kid aside, pulled off those gloves, whispered something that made the kid cry and pushed him over to the dump trucks. Now you tell me who had the problem. Stuff like that infuriates me. The kid was fucking THREE YEARS OLD.
That poor child. I think I would have flipped my shit if I'd been there. (Or cowered in a corner. The 'or' on my fight or flight response is pretty strong.) But seriously, violence against children is not something I tolerate.

Society talks a lot about violence against women, but frankly, if this guy's daughter had been caught wearing blue gloves and pushing a truck, she wouldn't have been treated like this. Non-conformance to female roles is often seen as cute or good, but non-conformance to male roles is used to justify a great deal of outright violence.

For homosexuals and women who are perceived as male, their non-adherence to male roles has and continues to be used to justify people outright murdering them.

It is absolutely heartbreaking.


My kids are a lot like that kid, especially my three year old. When he was about 2 yrs old, he LOVED bracelets. He went through a period when he had a collection of hair-band bracelets that he wore obsessively, every day. He has his own little apron that he wears while cooking (who doesn't love making cake?) or washing the dishes (well, using the sprayer.) He likes paint and crayons and books and cuddles and sparkly light up shoes and pretending to be a little girl dog named Angel. (He's responded primarily to 'Angel' for the past couple of months.)

And his favorite toys in the world are toy trains. My house is completely covered in toy trains. I'm not sure there is a room which has avoided infection. Medieval folks lived in huts smaller than the area covered by train tracks. The boys run and scream and throw balls and wrestle and jump on and off the sofa and ignore me yelling at them to stop and generally conform to gender norms to a surprising degree, given the almost total lack of coercion in their lives.

He is himself.

That poor little boy.
 

Kim Fierce

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