"A manuscript assessment agency"

victoriastrauss said:

I think you are really stretching interpretation here. To me, it seems that these guidelines, like Random House's, are simply suggesting that writers may find a manuscript assessment service personally useful. That's a far cry from a recommendation or a referral.

- Victoria

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I agree with this interpretation.

So far, I've refused to do it, simply because I'm poor and I hate the idea that writers would have to pay a lot of money to find publication.

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I was extremely poor when I chose to do it. I knew I had to in order to move my mansucript on, so I scraped the money together. It was simply an instinct I had that the novel was a winner that needed work. By the end of that year I had the first intallment on a mid-five-figure (in pounds sterling) advance! So it paid out in the end, many times over.

I'm not saying that my experience is typical or recommending to further. I am just saying there are no hard and fast rules. For every profession there is usually a learning or training period which costs money; for very few careers is the training free, especially in the US. I just had to lay down several times more than what I paid for my "training" (because that was what it was!) for my son's college fees.

Each writer must figure out for him or herself what is right. The field is very crowded and getting more so year by year, and those who feel this is worth it should weight the options carefully.

I still don't believe that any agent or publisher requires an assessment; and the very word "assessment" somehow implies that the mansucript is finished and you just supply the report along with the submission.

Getting a professional critique in order to perfect the manuscript for submission is an entirely different process.

aruna said:

Hillgate - that's simply not true. Look for instance at Hilary Johnson's website; her author's list.

Many of these are well-known names, some of them prize-winners, bestsellers - Katy Fforde, for instance, and Christina Jones. These are all writers who used an assessment agency. It really is a question of finding the right one. Me, I'm glad I used one. The £300 fee was worth every penny.
It seems to me that in the UK, whereas it;s not true that "most" agents use these agencies as scouts, the reverse IS often true - that authors who realise that they are nearly there use them for that last polish - and for the referral, as a fast track option.
I'm a member of WriteWords, a major UK writers' discussion board, and I know that many of best writers there have used them, and recommendations are discussed openly on the forum.
So it's not so much the no-hope writers, as the talented ones you might find seeking these services. Which helps improve their reputation, which in tern lures in more good writers.

In the case of Hilary, she only works with one agent as far as I know.

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Hi Aruna - I was only talking about my experience and you're welcome to completely disagree with me. It would be interesting to see at what stage in their career/writing process these authors used the assessment service. For example, perhaps their particular publisher asked for it on book 3 because it wasn't quite as good as books 1 and 2? I don't know. Also, if they're so good, why didn't they tell Ms Fforde about her name being spelt incorrectly...

aruna said:

For every profession there is usually a learning or training period which costs money; for very few careers is the training free, especially in the US. I just had to lay down several times more than what I paid for my "training" (because that was what it was!) for my son's college fees.

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I don't think this is an apt analogy. Colleges are accredited. Although the quality of any individual class can vary, you have a certain amount of confidence that the degree you get at the end will be useful.

The problem with assessment services is that anyone can call themselves one. It's the same problem as with "professional editing services". There are a lot of scams out there. The likelihood of abuse is enormous.

I suppose having a publisher's endorsement would help alleviate the problem, but then that just legitimizes the practice of scam publishers referring people to scam "editors" who are really themselves. This is a very slippery slope.

Although the quality of any individual class can vary, you have a certain amount of confidence that the degree you get at the end will be useful.

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I see it more as being like an MA in creative writing. You don't need one of those to be a writer - some would argue they are actually a bad thing, tending to push writers towards a kind of blandness. But often at a certain point, writers feel they need one to help polish a manuscript, or get a leg up into the industry. They've certainly boomed in the UK in the past few years, with hundreds of people a year graduating from them, and university creative writing courses are big in the US too, I believe.

They all vary in quality, and in terms of real usefulness I don't see the point. Creative writing isn't an academic subject that you can study and mark out of ten easily. But many, many people are willing to spend £3000 on doing one for a year because they believe it will help their career.

So if you haven't done one, you're competing with a lot of people who have polished their manuscript through a year of one-on-one work with a professional tutor.

To me, the existence of services which can work with an MS for a one-off fee, and give you similar feedback to that you'd get from an MA, but for considerably less than £3000 is great. I suspect the rise in them may well be partly due to the rise in university creative writing - if you look at one of them, but don't have the academic skills, time or money to do it, you have another option. Often the people running those kind of agencies are the same people who teach on MA courses.

As with anything, it's up to the writer to do their own checks on whose legit and who isn't - they all give their writing, publishing etc credits.

FergieC said:

To me, the existence of services which can work with an MS for a one-off fee, and give you similar feedback to that you'd get from an MA, but for considerably less than £3000 is great. I suspect the rise in them may well be partly due to the rise in university creative writing - if you look at one of them, but don't have the academic skills, time or money to do it, you have another option. Often the people running those kind of agencies are the same people who teach on MA courses.

.

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Exactly. Most writers DO have to learn on their own, from whomever they can. It's not about getting a degree - it's about learning the skills to be an a publishable writer. Where do you go? The market is tough enough as it is. Amnd everyone seems to think ther can write a novel.

Roger J Carlson said:

I

The problem with assessment services is that anyone can call themselves one. It's the same problem as with "professional editing services". There are a lot of scams out there. The likelihood of abuse is enormous.

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But the same goes for agents and publishers. Obviously, a savvy author would take the same care in finding a reputable editing service as she would in finding a good agent or publisher. There are scams in all ares of publishing.

It's a bit weird that writing is the only one of the arts where people expect not only not to have any formal training, but to learn everything for free; and often from people even less qualified than they are! Musicians, dancers, sculptors, actors and painters all usually have very intensive training; nobody would expect a professional opera singer (for example) to train with amateur singers for free.

Yet writers expect to get all their "training" from critique groups, which often consist of unpublished writers.
I'm not saying that this is wrong; but I just wish there was less of a stigma attached to those who do choose a paid critique service for their "training". I personally would not have chosen to attend a university course in creative writing. For me, the best training is first to write a manuscript, and then to have that thoroughly critiqued by a qualified person who has actually worked in the publishing business, and then to work on the ms using that critique as a basis.

I realise than many if not most writers do manage to get published without such a critique; but if it is someone's choice, and they are willing to pay for it and take care in choosing their service, I don't see what the problem is.

There are scams in all ares of publishing.

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All areas of life really. Most people tend not to pick their car machanic, plumber and electrician at random either, or if they do, they learn through trial and error. You might research for weeks before buying a washing machine. You know not to reply to Nigerian scam e-mails, but who knows what the next scam is that you might fall for...they're everywhere these days.

aruna said:

but I just wish there was less of a stigma attached to those who do choose a paid critique service for their "training".

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I don't see the stigma attached to the writer so much as to the provider. And I don't think there would be a stigma if the majority of such services were legitimate. But the reverse appears to be true. Legitimate editorial services are very hard to find, while scams litter the internet. I wish it weren't so, too, but...

MS assessment

Hello all, I hope someone might be able to help me.
I have been looking for a manuscript assessing service and although I've searched on the net I cannot find anyone who stands out. I even found a couple I've had dealings with in the past and know cannot be trusted. It's the same old story; who do I trust?

I would appreciate any suggestions, recommendations or best guesses.

I've been down the critique and beta route and now it's time for a trustworthy professional. Any thoughts? Thanks. T.

When you say you've "been down the beta and critique route before," I take it that mean it didn't go well? If I may I ask, what went wrong exactly? Was the advice less than useful? Are you concerned that your betas weren't experienced enough to find the more subtle issues?

Personally, I have not used any manuscript assessment services. (I was sorely tempted after attending a workshop by Lisa Rector Maass, as she was quite amazing, but I don't have that kind of cash.) So I cannot give you any recommendations based on experience.

I'd suggest AW's SYW, but I see you've been through there already and gotten some really good feedback.

My first instinct is to say you're better off focusing your efforts on refining your self-editing skills. I've seen this book highly recommended:

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/self-editing-for-fiction-writers-renni-browne/1103269502

Also, a quick search for "self-editing online writing workshops" revealed some interesting hits, though certainly you should check out the instructors for yourself (I wouldn't take any online workshop that won't even tell you who the instructors are and why they have the experience to help you):

http://pennwriters.org/prod/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=60&Itemid=95

http://nicemommy-evileditor.com/before-you-hit-send/

Sorry I can't be more helpful than that. I understand the desire to have a professional give your ms that stamp of approval before you send it out. But I also see a strong argument for learning how to revise your work through less expensive means.

Best of luck to you!

are you looking for someone specifically in Australia?
it's a tough ask.
I contacted a few names in Australia that were either recommended to me or I found on the web, and none of them filled me with confidence, especially for the sort of money they were asking (usually about A$2500)
I was in discussions with an Aussie writer who did MA, and was about to hire him when I got a positive reply from an agent. I asked my agent whether I should pay for the MA, but didn't mention the name, and he told me they were nearly always a waste of money.

later I learnt that the writer offering the MA was signed to the same agent and had written four self-published novels but had been unable to get any interest from a publisher in five years. My agent sold my book in three months.

I guess what I'm saying is that a lot of those offering MA are failed writers trying to scrape a buck, at least those in Australia. Maybe you should look overseas, but then you have cultural problems if your book is set in Australia

what genre and setting is your manuscript?

oh, I see from your profile you write SF. That's a whole different world. Or several worlds. I'd look overseas.

telford said:

Hello all, I hope someone might be able to help me.
I have been looking for a manuscript assessing service and although I've searched on the net I cannot find anyone who stands out. I even found a couple I've had dealings with in the past and know cannot be trusted. It's the same old story; who do I trust?

I would appreciate any suggestions, recommendations or best guesses.

I've been down the critique and beta route and now it's time for a trustworthy professional. Any thoughts? Thanks. T.

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Spellcheck, grammarcheck and symbol 'on' are a reasonable substitute for a proof reader (unless you write 'waive' instead of 'wave' or similar very often! ). Read your sentences backwards (only recommended in small doses.)

If you have had your betas qualify the draft and there are no known plot holes....then I'm not sure about having an MA done unless you want comment on the marketability of your work, perhaps?

I used a highly reputable SF/F editor in the UK. Not cheap, but PM me if you wish to know more.

Many thanks to Katrina, Unimportant, Skink, Ginsling and Waylander for your helpful suggestions.
Cheers, T
PS. And congrats to Skink for getting an agent.

aruna said:

I had an excellent experience, and it wasn't that the publishers asked for an assessment first. I found the assessment agency in a writers' magazine and I was lucky that it was a reputable agency. I turned to them primarily for help getting my mansucript into saleable form. I was a novice writer and had no other help avaialble.
The woman who runs the agency liked it so much that after my revisions she sent it to a top UK agent, who sold the manuscript in a matter of two weeks.

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Hi, I recently applied for an assessment from a different consultant, she too said she loved it and is passing it on to agents. Do they do this for everyone or am I right to be pleased with myself?

My thought here is that if they're so good at spotting marketable MS's that only need x amount of work to get them up to snuff, why aren't they working as agents instead. Which makes me wonder how much they are making off people who wouldn't stand a chance either way... I dunno, I'm always jaded about these sorts of services.
Also, the more people who opt to use them, the more pressure there may be for everyone to use them...

ETA:

aruna said:

It's a bit weird that writing is the only one of the arts where people expect not only not to have any formal training, but to learn everything for free; and often from people even less qualified than they are! Musicians, dancers, sculptors, actors and painters all usually have very intensive training; nobody would expect a professional opera singer (for example) to train with amateur singers for free.
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Not true for rock musicians - many are self-taught and slog the bar circuit or jam in rehearsal spaces. I even know a couple who now teach guitar who never received formal training beyond music classes in public school.

I dunno, I'm a big believer in public education (within reason, of course) and access to a career in arts shouldn't be restricted to people who (or rather people with parents who) can afford to fork out for even the basics. And I don't think anything is 'free' if real effort is being put into something. It's actually 'paid short cuts' that I'd have more objection to.

soniakirpalani said:

Hi, I recently applied for an assessment from a different consultant, she too said she loved it and is passing it on to agents. Do they do this for everyone or am I right to be pleased with myself?

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Depends on which assessment agency and which agent, but yes this could be a very positive development.

waylander said:

Depends on which assessment agency and which agent, but yes this could be a very positive development.

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the manuscript assessment was done by Phillipa Donovan at smart-quill editorial. My revise comes back this weekend.