Young Feminists Split On Clinton

Part of the reason why the feminist movement experienced almost as much backlash/momentum loss as forward motion was because the leaders (Betty, et al) were so very strident in their demands for "feminist behavior". Even though I couldn't wait to get a bra just so I could burn it, alot of adult women at that time were hard pressed to sign up for the whole kit 'n kaboodle that seemed to be required. So it's been a slow slog (and we still don't have an ERA or pay parity) but each subsequent generation of women do seem to be making headway. More importantly, the sons of these women are helping to advance the cause, in some cases. Because it takes two, baby! And part of the deal is: some women can continue to be subserviant, traditional, not-on-the-bandwagon members of a society that is ??? progressing forward without being "part of the problem" as one poster put it. Of course, it would help if they would at least bother to report domestic abuse.

Bird of Prey said:

Oh I have no doubt. . . . None at all.

And I have no regrets either.

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There's nothing to regret.

You argue both sides of the issue at the same time.

Scene 1:

Chris Matthews: Do you have any regrets regarding the Iraq war and it's bloody aftermath?

BoP: No, I was not in favor of the Iraq war.

Chris Matthew: But the surge is working right now?

BoP: Well, I was in favor of the Iraq war.

Chris Matthews: So you have no regrets regarding your position over the Iraq war?

BoP: Absolutely not.

End Scene

billythrilly7th said:

There's nothing to regret.

You argue both sides of the issue at the same time.

Scene 1:

Chris Matthews: Do you have any regrets regarding the Iraq war and it's bloody aftermath?

BoP: No, I was not in favor of the Iraq war.

Chris Matthew: But the surge is working right now?

BoP: Well, I was in favor of the Iraq war.

Chris Matthews: So you have no regrets regarding your position over the Iraq war?

BoP: Absolutely not.

End Scene

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What? What the hell does the Iraq War . . . what??

Bird of Prey said:

What? What the hell does the Iraq War . . . what??

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BoP: Hillary should be treated equally. She shouldn't be treated any different because she's a woman.

Next breath....

BoP: Why wasn't Barack Obama chivalrous and defend Hillary from the big, bad media attacks? He should come to her defense! Chivalry!!

Next breath...

BoP: Hillary is just as good as man!

Next breath...

BoP: She needs help in defending herself! Why Obama, did you not come to her defense!?

BoP,
Your Obama chivalry comment in the face of all your Hillary sexism rants was, in my opinion, one of the top ten goofs in the history of messageboard political debates.

You should be proud of it and embrace it.

It was a doozy.

Love,
Billy

robeiae said:

Heh. I'm in complete agreement with such feminists and--apparently--IG.

Lock thread! The Apocalypse is at hand!

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Lock thread?!

Lock forum!!

That's it, people! Our work here is done. Good luck everyone!!

You have no idea what you're saying, Billy, which is O.K. I've become accustomed to your um, humor.

So let me ask you something, Billy. Happened just like this about three weeks ago. Tell me what you'd do.

I'm waiting at the post office. Everybody gets numbers; that's how long the line is at the post office. Guy walks in and takes a number. He looks up at the number they're actually on and loudly sighs. There are four postal employees - all male - at the counters helping three men and a woman. The woman is the third furthest person away from the exasperated guy.

The guy immediately walks up to the counter where the woman is standing and interrupts her to ask the postal clerk a question. The postal clerk - male - immediately stops what he's doing to answer the guy. A conversation ensues. The exasperated male winds up, not only getting his question answered, but his letter or whatever it was received by the postal clerk. Is that sexism to you, Billy?

Sounds to me like the postal worker was gay and wanted to get a peek at the guy's return address.

Magdalen said:

Sounds to me like the postal worker was gay and wanted to get a peek at the guy's return address.

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Lol!! Nobody would want a peek at this guy's address.

No serious opinion, Mag?

Well, I'm not sure I'm getting the whole context of the scene. The exasperated male certainly seemed full of himself, enough to cut ahead. The postal worker should have directed him to the back of the line. Powerplays come in all shapes and sizes (and in both genders). As my dad used to say, "If you go looking for trouble, you will surely find it."

I haven't been following all of your Hillary comments, but if you actually used the word "chivalrous" I would have to consider that word choice to be extraordinarily medieval. Especially since you probably could've used "gentleman" instead, knowing how they prefer blondes and all.

Off topic just a bit but...my friends daughter is 17 and a senior in high school The other day her teacher was slamming Hillary and talking about how great Obama was to the class. The daughter raises her hand and tells the teacher that as far as she was concerned she was wrong. She'd met Hillary four times on a personal level and was always impressed with the woman. She also stated that if she could vote, her vote would be for Hillary..... shut the teacher right up. Personally, I liked Hillary before and I life her now. She's got balls and I respect that.

Bird of Prey said:

You have no idea what you're saying, Billy, which is O.K. I've become accustomed to your um, humor.

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And I've grown accustomed to your proving Thrillywin's Law over and over.

Thrillywin's Law: When someone is wrong and/or can't defend their point they throw out a "You're so crazy, I don't even know what you're talking about" and/or a " " in lieu of a substanative post.

Ex:

Billy: You protest against Hillary sexism and then protest when a man doesn't come aid Hillary and act chivalrous.

BoP: LOL! You're just getting funnier and funnier, Billy!!

Bird of Prey said:

Is that sexism to you, Billy?

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A. I don't believe I've ever said that society does not have sexism.

B. But to answer your questions, I quote Colonel Nathan Jessup:

"My answer is I don't have the first damn clue. Maybe he was an early riser and liked to pack in the morning. And maybe he didn't have any friends. I'm an educated man, but I'm afraid I can't speak intelligently about the travel habits of William Santiago."

Sadly, I don't know why the man was taken ahead of the woman. Maybe it was sexism. Maybe it was incompetence. It surely was plain rude.

Until you have a controlled test as to what would happen given the situation being reversed, no one can answer what happened.

Until you have a man sitting at the window and a woman being turned down by the same postal employee, you have no point. You witnessed a rude incident at the post office. What a shocker.

Thank you.

Magdalen said:

Well, I'm not sure I'm getting the whole context of the scene. The exasperated male certainly seemed full of himself, enough to cut ahead. The postal worker should have directed him to the back of the line. Powerplays come in all shapes and sizes (and in both genders). As my dad used to say, "If you go looking for trouble, you will surely find it."

I haven't been following all of your Hillary comments, but if you actually used the word "chivalrous" I would have to consider that word choice to be extraordinarily medieval. Especially since you probably could've used "gentleman" instead, knowing how they prefer blondes and all.

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Yes, admittedly I do like the word chivalrous. And it is certainly dated.

Gentleman or gentlemen seemed to drag through the twentieth century. With it came exactly what you alluded to: blondes and all, forties, fifties. . . Monroe. "Diamonds are a girl's best friend. . . ."

I like the word chivalrous because it's more than just a behavior. It's tied to a dedication to something that transcends quid pro quo. It's tied to something spiritual. It's not about sex. It's about behaving in a noble manner. . .aspiring to something higher without expectation. It's tied to an elite code of conduct.

Bird of Prey said:

I like the word chivalrous because it's more than just a behavior. It's tied to a dedication to something that transcends quid pro quo. It's tied to something spiritual. It's not about sex. It's about behaving in a noble manner. . .aspiring to something higher without expectation. It's tied to an elite code of conduct.

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Oh, just admit you blew it already.

Your entire argument contradicted.

The messageboard equivalent of...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KDwODbl3muE

But now you're going with "But I don't use the word in any way regarding sex! To me it's a androgenous word meaning honor."

Keep going, BoP.

There's nothing I like more than watching you try and squirm your way out of a goof.


Look here......


there...


I'l laugh..

play a song



write a little message about society or humanity


this should do it..

i'm almost out...


okay...no one is looking....


"The Bush Economy Collapses Thread"


"Whew!"

God love ya, Bop.

You just don't know how to go "ooops,that probably wasn't the right choice of words."

Goodnight.

Right Billy. Nice to see you resorting to the same old tired tactics that introduced me to you two years ago.

Bird of Prey said:

Right Billy. Nice to see you resorting to the same old tired tactics that introduced me to you two years ago.

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My writers are on strike.

I'm doing the best I can.

Be thankful I'm on the air at all.

billythrilly7th said:

My writers are on strike.

I'm doing the best I can.

Be thankful I'm on the air at all.

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LOL!! Lord, Billy. That line alone deserves a shot at Leno. I mean it. You need to write him.

Bird of Prey said:

LOL!! Lord, Billy. That line alone deserves a shot at Leno. I mean it. You need to write him.

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Goodnight, BoP.

billythrilly7th said:

Goodnight, BoP.

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G'Night Billy. Say hello to the Big Apple for me.

Bird of Prey said:

I like the word chivalrous because it's more than just a behavior. It's tied to a dedication to something that transcends quid pro quo. It's tied to something spiritual. It's not about sex. It's about behaving in a noble manner. . .aspiring to something higher without expectation. It's tied to an elite code of conduct.

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Yes, elite. Or knightly. Or aristocratic.

http://www.medieval-life.net/chivalry.htm

But not about sex? Get real. That's all it's about.

Men can be chivalrous in their conduct. Women cannot. By defintion. Or are you redefining the word?

Magdalen said:

Part of the reason why the feminist movement experienced almost as much backlash/momentum loss as forward motion was because the leaders (Betty, et al) were so very strident in their demands for "feminist behavior". Even though I couldn't wait to get a bra just so I could burn it, alot of adult women at that time were hard pressed to sign up for the whole kit 'n kaboodle that seemed to be required. So it's been a slow slog (and we still don't have an ERA or pay parity) but each subsequent generation of women do seem to be making headway. More importantly, the sons of these women are helping to advance the cause, in some cases. Because it takes two, baby!

Click to expand...

Not sure what you're trying to say here, as I read feminist blogs quite often and they are alive and well. They've had their successes, as well as their losses.

And part of the deal is: some women can continue to be subserviant, traditional, not-on-the-bandwagon members of a society that is ??? progressing forward without being "part of the problem" as one poster put it. Of course, it would help if they would at least bother to report domestic abuse.

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Do you know how hard it is to report abuse, if you're the victim? I mean, hey, never mind that these women are probably threatened with their lives, stuck because they have children with their abusive spouses, or if they do manage to get away, they sometimes end up homeless or worse, dead.

robeiae said:

Yes, elite. Or knightly. Or aristocratic.

http://www.medieval-life.net/chivalry.htm

But not about sex? Get real. That's all it's about.

Men can be chivalrous in their conduct. Women cannot. By defintion. Or are you redefining the word?

Click to expand...

Well, as women are supposedly shedding expected roles and are on par with men here in 2008, it stands to reason that they certainly can be chivalrous. If I've "redefined" the word: great.

Bird of Prey said:

Well, as women are supposedly shedding expected roles and are on par with men here in 2008, it stands to reason that they certainly can be chivalrous. If I've "redefined" the word: great.

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Frankly, Billy's point is valid. Your insistence that Obama be chivalrous was clearly based on his being a man and Hillary being a woman. You were using it in the traditional sense. Have you ever--ever--demanded chivalrous conduct from a woman?

Now, from my standpoint, I see no reason why men cannot engage in what I would call chivalrous behavior, while still maintaining an equality of the sexes. But such behavior is limited to situations that can exist wherein physiological differences and/or common practices allow for it. Two personal examples: 1) My wife and I were on a bus at a tennis tournament, taking us from the parking area to the stadium. We were seated and as the last passengers got on, a number of them had to stand. Several of those standing were woman and one was noticeably pregnant. So I got up and insisted that she take my seat. If there had been no pregnant woman, I would probably still have offered my seat to another woman if she had been wearing heels, however. I think that's chivalry. 2) When it's raining, I will always give an umbrella that I might have to my wife. And I have, on many occasions, loaned my umbrella to woman--sometimes strangers--so they can get to their car or into a store. My reasoning for doing so is again the common practices of society. High heels mean a woman cannot move as quickly, especially when it's wet, and woman's clothes often take more of a beating from the rain. And I think that's chivalry.

Now, you could rightly say that in the first case, a woman--like my wife--could have given her seat to the pregnant woman. That's fair. In fact, I'm sure my wife would have done so, if I had not done it first. But--like you--I'm attached to the concept. I don't think it has to be sexist, as a matter of course.

Still, I don't think your use of it in this case was in keeping with your usual point of view.

robeiae said:

Frankly, Billy's point is valid. Your insistence that Obama be chivalrous was clearly based on his being a man and Hillary being a woman. You were using it in the traditional sense. Have you ever--ever--demanded chivalrous conduct from a woman?

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I cited an example where I had toted a woman's luggage at the airport. I would consider that chivalrous in the sense that I didn't have to. But more to the point, I did not consider the woman inferior to me because she could have used the help. Btw, I understand that's not your argument regarding the word.

robeiae said:

Now, from my standpoint, I see no reason why men cannot engage in what I would call chivalrous behavior, while still maintaining an equality of the sexes. But such behavior is limited to situations that can exist wherein physiological differences and/or common practices allow for it. Two personal examples: 1) My wife and I were on a bus at a tennis tournament, taking us from the parking area to the stadium. We were seated and as the last passengers got on, a number of them had to stand. Several of those standing were woman and one was noticeably pregnant. So I got up and insisted that she take my seat. If there had been no pregnant woman, I would probably still have offered my seat to another woman if she had been wearing heels, however. I think that's chivalry. 2) When it's raining, I will always give an umbrella that I might have to my wife. And I have, on many occasions, loaned my umbrella to woman--sometimes strangers--so they can get to their car or into a store. My reasoning for doing so is again the common practices of society. High heels mean a woman cannot move as quickly, especially when it's wet, and woman's clothes often take more of a beating from the rain. And I think that's chivalry.

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I agree. I would consider that chivalrous conduct.

robeiae said:

Now, you could rightly say that in the first case, a woman--like my wife--could have given her seat to the pregnant woman. That's fair. In fact, I'm sure my wife would have done so, if I had not done it first. But--like you--I'm attached to the concept. I don't think it has to be sexist, as a matter of course.

Still, I don't think your use of it in this case was in keeping with your usual point of view.

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Chivalry is a word that comes quite naturally to me, being involved with horses. I gravitate toward archaic sports regarding their training, but admit I don't have the physical strength to - for example - keep a lance level while at a full gallop weighted down with a mere helmet and chest plate. . . I mean, knights must have been in great shape. But I should add, I do know there are women who can do it.

Ignoring all of the back and forth on the Clintons... this divide is pretty much the undoing of women.

Allow me to explain before you get out the pitchforks and torches... women are brutally tough on one another. Ask a defense attorney on a rape case who he wants on a jury. I bet he'll say women. Women will look for something that the victim did to make her responsible for the attack. Was she a slut? Did she dress provocatively? Did she make overt overtures? Once they satisfy these questions in their mind, THEN, they'll determine the guilt/innocence of the guy sitting on trial.

The fact is that Hillary is not going to have an easy go of it with women. Her "breakdown" did wonders for her status with women (many thought she was a blindly ambitious machine), but a lot of women will continue to judge her harshly for the personal as opposed to the professional. Many women I know vehemently oppose her because of the way she handled Bill and scandal. I used to feel the same way... then I wondered what it was that people were expecting from a political family in the public eye. A lot of women STAY when they are being abused and cheated on... in a way I think the reflection they see through Hillary is too tough to take.

I would divorce for infidelity. I would continue to love my wife but not ever being able to trust her, I know that it would be a pointless pursuit to "try". Hillary for whatever reason stayed... and frankly it's none of our business whether male or female.

I more often wonder why George H. W. Bush stayed with a bug-eyed woman that looks like his grandmother than I do about why it is that Bill and Hill stay in what is obviously a "merger".