A Ball in a Tavern?

Belle_91 · Dec 21, 2011

Apparently it did happen in Colonial VA during the 1770s.

http://www.history.org/almanack/places/hb/hbral.cfm --offical Williamsburg article on it.

In the opening scene of my story, there is a ball that is being conducted in the Raleigh Tavern in Williamsburg in 1775.

However, alot of people on AW didn't believe me at first and asked about this. I got alot of "did this really happen" and "are you sure about this."

I understand why because when I think of a tavern, I picture something out of Pirates of the Caribbean with lots of men smoking, drinking, and whoring (maybe not the last bit for a Disney movie

)

Anyways, I was wondering how I might go about conveying that this actually did happen and that this is a "fancy" tavern--if there is such a thing--and not what people expect. Even if I describe it I think the word "tavern" to people evokes a different setting then what I'm trying to create.

Another problem:

In a guide book to CW that I have, they have picture of the Raleigh Tavern's Apollo room with GREEN doors, and now I found this picture...and it's blue

Deleted member 42 · Dec 21, 2011

Wasn't it also the local posting house and inn at the time?

And weren't some of the early meetings of the continental congress held there?

It's been a very long time since I did much with Colonial History, so don't take my word for it.

Puma · Dec 21, 2011

There weren't a lot of paint options back then. The blue in the picture may have been a greenish blue and in later years as more colors became available changed to the green in the guidebook you have. I'm pretty sure a rusty red and not sure what to call it - but dull blue were two of the standard colors. You might look up Shaker paints to see if you can find any information there. The Shakers made and sold paint a bit after your time period, but looking at that might give you some help on the colors. Puma

ETA: I've not had a problem with your ball in the tavern. And as Medievalist mentioned, a lot of the old Inns were also taverns (accessed by separate doors). It could just be that the name tavern stuck with the building rather than inn. Puma

Alessandra Kelley · Dec 21, 2011

Puma said:
There weren't a lot of paint options back then. The blue in the picture may have been a greenish blue and in later years as more colors became available changed to the green in the guidebook you have. I'm pretty sure a rusty red and not sure what to call it - but dull blue were two of the standard colors. You might look up Shaker paints to see if you can find any information there. The Shakers made and sold paint a bit after your time period, but looking at that might give you some help on the colors. Puma

ETA: I've not had a problem with your ball in the tavern. And as Medievalist mentioned, a lot of the old Inns were also taverns (accessed by separate doors). It could just be that the name tavern stuck with the building rather than inn. Puma

I've done extensive research on historical pigments, believe it or not. Blue had been traditionally a fabulously expensive pigment (which is why in medieval paintings the Virgin Mary wore blue -- it was literally worth its weight in gold), but in 1723 Prussian Blue, or ferric ferrocyanide, was first synthesised and became wildly popular as a paint and dye (for the Prussian army uniforms, thus the name). That would be the basis of most of the colonial blue paints.

Greens would be mixed, and thus dull, or one of several weak, dull shades. No truly permanent, cheap, bright green was available until the mid-nineteenth century.

The reds were mostly iron oxides, cheap and abundant.

Wasn't there a ball in a tavern in one of Jane Austen's novels?

Puma · Dec 21, 2011

Alessandra - weren't a lot of the early paints here in the states basically earths mixed with linseed oil or something similar? It seems to me the Shaker blue I mentioned wasn't a Prussian blue derivative. (Been ages since I read about it.) Puma

Belle_91 · Dec 21, 2011

The one in my guidebook--I REALLY wished I brought it home for the Christmas break--was kind of like a greenish blue if that makes any sense. It wasn't exactly a solid green.

I think I'll mention that the ball was held in the Apollo Room and maybe something about there being a door to the tavern.

The coloring in my guidebook looked more like the one on the far right.

Thanks so much guys.

Alessandra--thanks soo much for the comment on the Virgin Mary. I have often wondered why she is always depicted as wearing blue and now I know.

Alessandra Kelley · Dec 21, 2011

Linseed oil is the basis of oil paint. Paints were also made with caseine, so-called "milk paints," which has a softer sheen and more opaque colors.

I don't actually know that Prussian blue was used in wall paint, only that it was the only bright, cheap, reliable blue available in the 18th century.

Good blues were really hard to come by. The best, lapis lazuli blue, was the incredibly expensive one mentioned above. Nobody would use it on walls. Azurite, slightly less expensive, has a gritty, sandy texture and is unsuited to wall painting. Indigo and woad are fugitive. Cobalt blue and cheap artificial lapis lazuli would not be invented until the early decades of the nineteenth century.

I don't know for sure what blues the Shakers used. Today colors of that name are usually ultramarine blue (artificial lapis lazuli) toned down with black or brown and white to a soft slate color.

I have done some experimenting with color effects, seeing how one could manage with an eighteenth-century palette. Certain black pigments have a cool tone, and mixed with white produce a bluish grey. This placed next to earth reds and yellows can, in fact look quite blue. (A little of this black mixed with a yellow earth produces a fairly convincing olive green as well!)

Alessandra Kelley · Dec 21, 2011

Belle_91 said:
The one in my guidebook--I REALLY wished I brought it home for the Christmas break--was kind of like a greenish blue if that makes any sense. It wasn't exactly a solid green.

I think I'll mention that the ball was held in the Apollo Room and maybe something about there being a door to the tavern.

The coloring in my guidebook looked more like the one on the far right.

Thanks so much guys.

Alessandra--thanks soo much for the comment on the Virgin Mary. I have often wondered why she is always depicted as wearing blue and now I know.

I suppose it could be cobalt green? That was invented in 1780 and is about that color. It's pretty, but very expensive and with a low tinting strength. I don't know.

There's also copper verdigris, I forgot. But unless protected by oil, and even then it's only protected for a little time, it turns blackish brown (this is why so many Renaissance paintings have blackish foliage on the trees -- it was originally brilliant verdigris).

Flicka · Dec 22, 2011

I know that Patrick Baty who's a British historical paint consultant talked about how the green used in the 18th century tends to fade into blue and the fact that you often find bright blue doors on historical buildings is because they were originally dark green. So when restoring an 18th century house, you have to decide if you want to restore the original green or go with the blue often considered typical for Georgian houses. Might have something to do with it.

And yes, there's a ball at an inn in Sense & Sensibility. There's nothing strange with having a ball in public rooms in an 18th century setting. I don't really know how to convey this simple fact, except maybe commenting that the venue was commonly used by people in this town for balls.

You don't want me to get mestarted on everything erroneous people 'know' about the 18th century. Like that women the upper classes all married young. There's a large-scale study done that shows that the mean age for marriage for women belonging to the gentry in the 18th century was actually 24 years and 9 months. Not at all what romance readers all 'know'.

mscelina · Dec 22, 2011

There were balls at inns during this period because many inns had assembly rooms. As a matter of fact, Almack's of Regency fame was actually a coffee house--and one of the few that allowed women to enter the premises.. (Coffee houses in the 18th century transmogrified into the exclusive men's members only clubs like White's) At any rate, at Almack's, the men nominated and elected the women members, and the women nominated and elected the men. The famous marriage mart balls at Almack's were held in the assembly rooms of the coffee house, and only people who were invited by a member could gain admittance. That's why all those marriage-minded mamas from the trade families racked their brains to find a connection to one of the patronesses of Almack's and so thrust their daughters in front of marriageable noblemen.

So yes--balls in inns or above taverns were a very normal thing and is perfectly acceptable.

Alessandra Kelley · Dec 22, 2011

Ah-HA!

Scheele's Green, the highly poisonous copper hydrogen arsenate, was developed in 1775. It was hugely popular, despite being chemically unstable and prone to fading to dull blackish blue -- and incredibly poisonous. Ye gads, they used it to color food in the 19th century!

I bet this is the colonial green color they speak of, the one that starts out bright green and fades to dull blue. It's no longer used even obscurely, as far as I know.

Belle_91 · Dec 22, 2011

Alessandra Kelley said:
Ah-HA!

Scheele's Green, the highly poisonous copper hydrogen arsenate, was developed in 1775. It was hugely popular, despite being chemically unstable and prone to fading to dull blackish blue -- and incredibly poisonous. Ye gads, they used it to color food in the 19th century!

I bet this is the colonial green color they speak of, the one that starts out bright green and fades to dull blue. It's no longer used even obscurely, as far as I know.

Thanks!

A Ball in a Tavern?

Belle_91

With her nose stuck in a book

Deleted member 42

Puma

Retired and loving it!

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

Puma

Retired and loving it!

Belle_91

With her nose stuck in a book

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

Flicka

Dull Old Person

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

Belle_91

With her nose stuck in a book