Advice: Point Of View

Status
Not open for further replies.

jpsorrow

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
118
Reaction score
48
Location
Binghamton, NY
Website
www.sff.net
Point of View

Every story has at least one main character, and the story itself is told through the eyes of that main character—or through an assortment of main characters. This is what we mean when we say point of view. The point of view should be thought out carefully, because who is telling the story will effect how the story is told, and will give the story a particular flavor or color. If the main character isn’t truthful, then can you really trust what you’re being told? If the character is a pessimist, is the situation really that bad? So you have to consider who’s telling the story and how that person will affect the details and the tone of the story itself. On a more fundamental level, it will also affect the grammar of the story. There are essentially three types of grammatical points of view currently used in the publishing world today. I want to discuss each one, its pros and cons, and why you may want to use that particular POV for your story.

First Person: The first POV I’d like to discuss is “first person.” This is where the entire story is focused on a single individual and is told exclusively through that person’s eyes. Grammatically, the sentence structures will use the “I” form, such as, “I walked down the alley to the edge of the Dredge,” or “The assassin’s dagger sliced through the ropes that bound my hands.”

The main advantage of using first person is that it is extremely personal. The intent of first person is to place the reader fully inside of someone’s head, to submerge the reader in that person’s character. When done correctly, the reader will feel as if THEY ARE THAT PERSON, at least for the duration of the reading experience. They should be completely immersed in the character’s emotions, what they are seeing, smelling, touching, feeling, doing. The reader should feel as if they are actually seeing, smelling, touching, feeling, and doing the exact same things.

This advantage is also the disadvantage of first person: The reader should be immersed completely in that character . . . which means that EVERYTHING has to be from that character’s point of view. There’s no room for any other characters. This places a huge restriction on the writer when it comes to plot. Anything of importance in the plot must either happen to this one main character, or must be done off stage and then related to the main character at some point after the fact. It’s hard to create a believable plot in which all of the key elements of the plot happen to one character. After a point, the reader who’s going along for the ride might just start to doubt that all of this could happen to one person. Take the TV show 24, for example. Now really, how much can happen to one person (Jack Bauer) during the course of 24 hours? Let alone the same person for 6 (or is it 7?) seasons? They’ve not only bent the believability factor beyond all measure, they’ve twisted it into a Kline bottle.

But I still like the show. *grin*

So you have to be careful with first person. Not all plots will support a first person narrative. If you decide to use first person, you need to have a good reason. I chose to use first person for The Skewed Throne because the story itself was extremely personal: It’s about one single person, Varis, and her struggle to survive. I also used first person because the magic in that world is extremely personal. I wanted to show how the magic worked through Varis’ eyes alone, so that the reader experienced it as Varis did. Be aware that there are many readers out there who despise first person and will not read a first person novel no matter how many people tell them it is good. I think they’ve been turned off by first person narratives because they’ve read (bad) novels that shouldn’t have been in first person to begin with, but . . . moving on.

Third Person Limited: Third person limited is one step away from first person. It uses a lot of the same ideas, but it’s not as intense (in general). It doesn’t get as deep down and personal as first person does. Basically, the idea is to create each scene so that it is seen through the eyes of a single person (like first person), but leaving the option open to skip from one person to another after each scene break. Grammatically, you use “he” and “she” instead of “I,” such as “He slid into the sewer through the bent iron bars,” or “The metal of her dagger felt cold and lifeless in the palm of her hand.” It’s not as personal as first person because you aren’t forcing the reader to BE the characters, you’re just forcing the reader to view that particular scene through that character’s eyes. Essentially, for first person you are INSIDE the character, while for third person limited you are OUTSIDE the character, but still getting their slant on the situation. Because you are outside of the character, it’s not as emotionally intense (in general).

The main advantage of third person limited is that you are retaining some of the personal contact of first person to some extent, but you are freeing yourself up, as the writer, to also bring in other perspectives and story lines. You can view the same scene from multiple POVs, and each character will bring in their own little slant on the action. You can also follow multiple plot lines, rather than strictly one plot line. Characters can diverge and have their own little adventures, perhaps never meeting up with other characters in the book. The plot lines themselves can be more complex, more convoluted, and in the end perhaps a little richer.

The disadvantage is that you have lost some of the intensity that is inherent in a good first person novel. First person is typically much deeper when it comes to character development, and that will be lost. Another disadvantage is that each scene is restricted to a single POV, so if you want multiple viewpoints on the same scene, you have to write the scene twice (or more) to get those viewpoints, or you have to have characters referring back to the scene to get in their own viewpoints. In other words, you can’t cover all of the viewpoints you might want all at once in the same scene. Typically, this means that, as the writer, you need to figure out which character will present the scene in the most dramatic way, or who will be the most effective in describing that scene and its intent.

Most of the novels out there at the moment are with written as first person, or as third person limited. These are the current trends, but it wasn’t always this way. Another POV was popular for a long while, and that one was . . .

Third Person Omniscient: This is the one that you were probably taught in high school English. This uses the same grammatical structures as third person limited (“he” and “she”) but does not restrict the focus of the scene to a single character. Instead, thoughts and impressions and viewpoints are allowed from ALL of the characters actually in that scene, and in fact can include thoughts from the “narrator” as well. And generally that’s how you think of third person omniscient: The story is written as if there is a god-like narrator looking down on the scene who can see inside of each character’s head, someone who knows what everyone is seeing, thinking, and feeling, and who can report on everything that is happening. Often, this narrator will also know the “future” and will hint at that as well. It varies on how present the narrator is. Sometimes the narrator isn’t present much at all, so doesn’t add any of their own comments to the story, just reports the facts as they see them. But sometimes the narrator is an active commenter, making snide little remarks or heavily foreshadowing upcoming events, etc.

The advantage to this POV is that the reader gets to see and hear and feel everything, or at least, everything that the narrator is willing to divulge. They know exactly what everyone is thinking in each and every scene at the same time. When Simion stabs Mark in the gut, they get to see how Simion reacts to the sensation of blood running over her hands, while at the same time they get to experience Mark’s death. In first person or third person limited, the writer would have to choose which of the characters to focus on and only give the reader that one experience, trying to work in the other from that character’s POV.

The disadvantage of third person omniscient is that having multiple characters and all of their actions and thoughts and emotions all in the same scene . . . can get confusing for the reader. The writer has to be skilled enough to make it obvious to the reader which character’s head they are currently “in” and when they are hopping to someone else’s head during the course of the scene. This head-hopping—especially if done numerous times in a single scene—can not only get confusing, but annoying. I think this is why third person limited is so much more prevalent in today’s market. It cuts down on the confusion and annoyance factors for the reader.

So those are the three types of POV: first person, third person limited, and third person omniscient. For each story, you need to decide which one will be the most effective for what you want to do with that story. If it’s an intense, personal story, then first person may be the best choice. If it’s personal, but it involves numerous characters and multiple plot lines, then perhaps third person limited. If it isn’t necessarily personal, but contains multiple plot lines that weave around each other, affecting each other simultaneously, then third person omniscient might be the best approach. Think about the story before you sit down to write it, and choose the best POV you possibly can.
 

Shady Lane

my name is hannah
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
44,931
Reaction score
9,546
Location
Heretogether
I'm intrigued? What's third person objective?

Doesn't mention second person, either, which I know is really unpopular, but I secretly love it.
 

jpsorrow

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Messages
118
Reaction score
48
Location
Binghamton, NY
Website
www.sff.net
Oh, there are definitely other POVs out there. I tried to restrict the POV post (look how long it is already!) to the three most common types. And really, third person omniscient is not all that common anymore.

I figured second person should be done in its own post. Not sure when I'll get to it, because it isn't used often, especially not for novel length. I've seen it used for short stories, but I can't think of a single recent novel written in second person.
 

JasonChirevas

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Messages
158
Reaction score
17
Location
Bronxville, New York
I'm intrigued? What's third person objective?

Doesn't mention second person, either, which I know is really unpopular, but I secretly love it.

Third Person Objective POV is the story told as if the narrator is a fly on the wall or a movie camera. The characters' thoughts or feelings are not described, only their actions and dialog. Description is limited to what can be seen, heard, smelled, etc.

Each paragraph is like another shot in a film, basically.

-Jason
 

JasonChirevas

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Messages
158
Reaction score
17
Location
Bronxville, New York
Oh, there are definitely other POVs out there. I tried to restrict the POV post (look how long it is already!) to the three most common types. And really, third person omniscient is not all that common anymore.

I figured second person should be done in its own post. Not sure when I'll get to it, because it isn't used often, especially not for novel length. I've seen it used for short stories, but I can't think of a single recent novel written in second person.

Isn't Stephen King's Dolores Claiborne written in Second Person, or is that too old to be "recent"? Or, did I just not make it far enough into the book to know it isn't ALL written in Second Person?

-Jason
 

JasonChirevas

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Messages
158
Reaction score
17
Location
Bronxville, New York
I thought I remembered that Dolores Claiborne was 1st-person. The woman was telling the story.

ETA: Looking at an excerpt in Amazon seems to back that up.

That's true, she does say "I". I guess I thought of it as Second Person because the whole book is her talking to the people interrogating her saying "you" a lot as though the reader is in the room.

Oh well.

-Jason
 

shadowrose45

The problem with publishers is that most of them like either First Person or 3rd person limited.

Personally, I write the thoughts of all the characters :)
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
The problem with publishers is that most of them like either First Person or 3rd person limited.

Personally, I write the thoughts of all the characters :)

As a reader, I hate narration that reveals thoughts of every character. And I think that's exactly why most publishers like first person or 3rd limited. I want to experience the story I read, as much as possible, and I am put off from doing that when the author tells me what every character is thinking. I real life I can't read minds, so I'm left with interpreting what people do, unless they explicitly tell me what they're thinking (and even then, they often lie); an author can do that via dialogue.

caw
 

JasonChirevas

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Messages
158
Reaction score
17
Location
Bronxville, New York
As a reader, I hate narration that reveals thoughts of every character. And I think that's exactly why most publishers like first person or 3rd limited. I want to experience the story I read, as much as possible, and I am put off from doing that when the author tells me what every character is thinking. I real life I can't read minds, so I'm left with interpreting what people do, unless they explicitly tell me what they're thinking (and even then, they often lie); an author can do that via dialogue.

caw

Agreed.

-Jason
 

Shady Lane

my name is hannah
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
44,931
Reaction score
9,546
Location
Heretogether
Oh, there are definitely other POVs out there. I tried to restrict the POV post (look how long it is already!) to the three most common types. And really, third person omniscient is not all that common anymore.

I figured second person should be done in its own post. Not sure when I'll get to it, because it isn't used often, especially not for novel length. I've seen it used for short stories, but I can't think of a single recent novel written in second person.

There's this YA book, Freewill, that came out somewhat recently. By Chris Lynch. Very acclaimed, won some sort of award. I personally hated it, though I've loved other books by that author.
 

Will Lavender

Everything is what it seems.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
1,801
Reaction score
355
Location
Louisville, KY
Jay McCinierney's famous Bright Lights, Big City is in second person. Hellacious novel.

Also: Italo Calvino's If On a Winter's Night a Traveler...

Justin Evans' A Good and Happy Child, coming this summer from my publisher, Shaye Areheart, uses it extensively though not exclusively.
 

ErylRavenwell

Banned
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Messages
852
Reaction score
166
That's true, she does say "I". I guess I thought of it as Second Person because the whole book is her talking to the people interrogating her saying "you" a lot as though the reader is in the room.

Oh well.

-Jason

SPN is basically a form of FPN. This becomes obvious only if the narrator explicitly reveals himself/herself. The narratee is simply the object of the narrator's attention. It can be omniscient as well, since the narrator knows almost everything about the narratee.
 
Last edited:

Zoombie

Dragon of the Multiverse
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Messages
40,775
Reaction score
5,947
Location
Some personalized demiplane
I've read this book that switched between characters, but always has a scene break in between character switches. So, it first goes with A, then there's a scene break and it goes to character B. Maybe five scenes later, it goes back to A, and so on.

Is this third person limited? Or is this Omniscient? That's been bugging me for a while now...
 

Will Lavender

Everything is what it seems.
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 6, 2007
Messages
1,801
Reaction score
355
Location
Louisville, KY
I've read this book that switched between characters, but always has a scene break in between character switches. So, it first goes with A, then there's a scene break and it goes to character B. Maybe five scenes later, it goes back to A, and so on.

Is this third person limited? Or is this Omniscient? That's been bugging me for a while now...

Depends on whether or not we get outside of the character's thoughts.

If the action focuses solely on character A in his chapter, then it's limited. If the action moves from character A to another character's actions and thoughts while we're still in A's chapter, then it's omniscient.
 

Susan Breen

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
Messages
846
Reaction score
199
Location
New York
Susan Breen

I'm intrigued? What's third person objective?

Doesn't mention second person, either, which I know is really unpopular, but I secretly love it.

The Lottery by Shirley Jackson is written in third person objective. It's a great POV if you're trying to keep a secret, but hard to pull off. Sometimes I use it as a writing exercise just to make sure I'm using enough description. By the way, this is my first post, so I hope I'm doing it right.
 

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jun 5, 2005
Messages
1,064
Reaction score
165
I've read this book that switched between characters, but always has a scene break in between character switches. So, it first goes with A, then there's a scene break and it goes to character B. Maybe five scenes later, it goes back to A, and so on.

Is this third person limited? Or is this Omniscient? That's been bugging me for a while now...
Limited, with POV switches. Omni would have all the characters' thoughts available to tell at all times.
 

JasonChirevas

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Messages
158
Reaction score
17
Location
Bronxville, New York
The Lottery by Shirley Jackson is written in third person objective. It's a great POV if you're trying to keep a secret, but hard to pull off. Sometimes I use it as a writing exercise just to make sure I'm using enough description. By the way, this is my first post, so I hope I'm doing it right.

I'm writing my WIP in Third Person Objective because it forces me to reveal the characters through their actions and propel the story forward above all else.

-Jason
 

Shady Lane

my name is hannah
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
44,931
Reaction score
9,546
Location
Heretogether
With my next novel, I'm going to take a stab at second.

Wish me luck! :Shrug:

My last novel was about four best friends, and they each had their own POV--

Kyle wrote in third person limited, past tense.
Josiah wrote in second person, present tense.
Charlie wrote in first person, past tense.
Sawyer wrote in first person, present tense.

It was so fun and actually wasn't all that confusing, since I clearly marked the scene changes and started each of their first chapters with "There was a boy named Kyle" "You are a boy named Josiah" "I was a boy named Charlie" "I am a boy named Sawyer," just to plunge you right in there.

The second person ended up being my favorite.
 

sunna

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Apr 14, 2007
Messages
2,436
Reaction score
4,114
I enjoy reading third-person limited more than any other, but for some reason I find it harder to write than third omni - I find myself lapsing into omni and having to catch myself, at least while I'm getting started. Second - mmph. I'm too new at this, I guess, I screw it up every time. I think of it as a 'distancing' factor to be used sproadically in a first or third-limited, that is if I ever get comfortable with it - i.e., Pink Slip, by Rita Ciresi. The whole thing is first-person, but there's this one scene she does in second person, and the switch is powerful.
Also my first post, be gentle! Or not, I can take it. (chin out) Or just ignore me. I'm just happy to have found this site. :)
 

blacbird

Super Member
Registered
Joined
Mar 21, 2005
Messages
36,987
Reaction score
6,158
Location
The right earlobe of North America
Beginning fiction writers always seem to have a subliminal temptation to delve into the inner workings of characters' minds. It's almost always a bad idea, and gets in the way of constructing an actual story.

caw
 
Status
Not open for further replies.