Court blocks hospital from disconnecting Jahi McMath from life support

I feel terrible for the family, but that child is dead. I don't understand why the judge would allow them to drag it out. It seems cruel to give them false hope.

OJCade said:

I feel terrible for the family, but that child is dead. I don't understand why the judge would allow them to drag it out. It seems cruel to give them false hope.

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I agree. I think the mother is in denial about the reality of the situation, which is understandable. But yeah, when the court and a medical facility agree with her, that is not helping. Very sad.

I agree -- the poor girl is dead and gone. Give her a bit of dignity, and set her free. It's a hard decision to face, and I thank God that the times I've lost loved ones, their deaths were clean and quick. I hope the family gets the help they need, and unfortunately, denying the truth is preventing that.

This has been on the news every night here in the bay area. The mother is in serious denial – she claims that her daughter responds to her voice and is alive. The girl unfortunately is brain-dead. There is no chance that she will recover. There is nothing left to recover.

The family wishes to transfer her out of the hospital to a long-term facility. They claim to have contacted several places that are willing to take the child. This has not been verified, however.

The judge is simply extending the period of time for another week, to give the family a chance to find a place that will take their daughter.

Keeping a brain dead person's body functioning by mechanical and technological means is not only pointless, and to me rather ghoulish, but is also rather expensive, especially when you consider it could be years. But they will certainly have enough money to do that. The girl went in for a routine tonsillectomy and something went terribly wrong. The hospital will be paying out an awful lot of cash.

Some may recall the case of Terri Schiavo. But in her case it was the family that wish to disconnect her from life support and the state that wished to keep her going.

Furthermore, Terry Schiavo was not brain-dead. She was in a persistent vegetative state which is a different thing. She was not conscious nor functioning, but she was alive.

I do feel sympathy for a family when such a terrible thing has happened to their daughter. But at the same time their intractable denial of reality is difficult to understand.

rugcat said:

But at the same time their intractable denial of reality is difficult to understand.

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Not if this: "(CNN) -- They thought the tonsil surgery would help her. She feared she'd never wake up." is accurate.
If her family, with the best of intentions, had to talk her into going along with the surgery, there must be massive guilt when, not only did it go wrong, but exactly what she feared would happen, happened.
"Oh, no, honey, it'll be fine. Trust us. You'll see." Some variation of that is running through their heads.
This isn't 'child killed in a car accident', this is more 'parent accidentally runs over own child'.
Those poor people.

I became a nursing assistant 3 years ago, and yet I was (unskillfully) taking care of my own ailing mother 5 years ago (she passed away 4 years ago, I took care of her from 2006 to 2009). As I sat in my nursing classes 3 years ago, learning to become a nursing assistant, I would sometimes shake my head in the middle of a lecture and say to myself "If only I had known that back then when I was taking care of Mom."

When my mother reached a point of 100% dependence upon the ventilator, there was some discussion about turning it off and just letting her die quietly. One of my older brothers was vehemently against it for religious reasons. But I was the legally designated health care proxy, so the power was in my hands to make that decision.

I at first gave in to the pressure of my family to keep my mother alive. So we had the hospital set up all protocols in her healthcare plan for how to just keep her alive indefinitely. These included IV fluid, TPN feeding tubes, and ongoing body care. But then in less than a week her condition deteriorated considerably. And I called the rest of the family and told them we needed to reconsider. My older brother had to be convinced, and he agreed only if it was promised that she would feel no pain.

I went to the hospital and spoke to the head nurse at the nursing station where several other nurses and nursing assistants were also standing around (or sitting around) doing work. I told her "I've decided to reconsider. I believe we need to turn off the ventilator." And when I said that, the overwhelming relief in the room which every last nurse there wordlessly expressed was tangible. The whole nursing staff was obviously against my family's decision to keep my mother alive. I heard the sighs of relief. I saw the whispers get exchanged. And only later --two years later-- when I became a CNA did I realize WHY those nurses were so relieved.

It's so cruel to keep these people alive when it's obviously time to go. Their bodies do not "want" to be alive anymore, So we should stop forcing their bodies to keep on doing this thing called breathing.

My mother was not brain dead. She was still "in there." But her mental state was broken, and her body had given up. The final 24 hours before the appointed time of shutting of the ventilator included two more medical complications arising --very visual and even gruesome complications which shocked me and my family and which so clearly demonstrated that it was past time to just let her go.

We all gathered in her room and the ventilator was shut off and she died in minutes.

I do not regret making that decision. She was suffering. Keeping her alive served no purpose.

When I later became a nursing assistant, there was this one old lady in a nursing home I used to work at who was 104 years old, and I would pray that God would just let her die. She was so old and frail and merely lay in her bed all day. And from time to time I even heard her in her room at night (I worked 2nd shift) praying to God herself, asking him why he continued to keep her in this world. Even she wanted to die.

William Haskins said:

"This child was sitting on death row," said family attorney Christopher Dolan. "This was a facility that was hell bent on ending this child's life today, and a court stepped in."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/30/health/jahi-mcmath-girl-brain-dead/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

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I've tried very hard to be sensitive to the family's grief, but this statement is really getting to me. It's asinine. Even more, I feel it to be vindictive and poisonous.

There is no such thing as a "safe" surgery. Complications are always possible. And it sounds like the hospital screwed up being prepared for that. But that's done. Now we're here.

You're going to accuse doctors of *wanting* to kill a child?

I don't know where that quote comes from, if the lawyer thought it up or if it comes from the family, but it's hateful and does *nothing* to help the girl, who is already gone.

I don't know. Being a parent, I can understand the mother's viewpoint. I'd do the same if it were my daughter. Especially considering these stories found within three minutes of casual searching:

'Miracle recovery' of teen declared brain dead by four doctors (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html )

Man makes “miraculous” recovery from brain death after accident
( http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...ous_recovery_from_brain_death_after_accident/ )

‘Brain dead’ Quebec woman wakes up after family refuses organ donation
( http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/br...-wakes-up-after-family-refuses-organ-donation )

‘Brain dead’ woman recovers after husband refuses to withdraw life support
( http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/br...ter-husband-refuses-to-withdraw-life-support/ )


But then again, I do see the hospital's point. I mean they are a business. And if the patient is more profitable being harvested for body organs, well... who am I to argue with that?

All I can say is: if anyone here is comfortable consigning their child to death, even if there's the slightest chance they might one day open their eyes - more power to you. I couldn't do it.

frimble3 said:

Not if this: "(CNN) -- They thought the tonsil surgery would help her. She feared she'd never wake up." is accurate.
If her family, with the best of intentions, had to talk her into going along with the surgery, there must be massive guilt when, not only did it go wrong, but exactly what she feared would happen, happened.
"Oh, no, honey, it'll be fine. Trust us. You'll see." Some variation of that is running through their heads.
This isn't 'child killed in a car accident', this is more 'parent accidentally runs over own child'.
Those poor people.

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How do you justify this claim? Something went wrong after she woke up from the surgery. That is not the parents' fault, and is nothing like them "running over their own child." Where do you get off blaming the parents for a post-surgical mishap. That's just cruel and uncalled for.

From the CNN article:

Family members say the 8th grader was alert and talking after doctors removed her tonsils, adenoids and extra sinus tissue in a surgery earlier this month.


Doctors had recommended the surgery to treat pediatric obstructive sleep apnea, a condition which made her stop breathing in her sleep and caused other medical problems.

Before the surgery, Jahi said she was worried that she would never wake up, according to her uncle. She seemed fine after the surgery, but asked for a Popsicle because her throat hurt.

It wasn't long before something went terribly wrong.
In the intensive care unit, the girl began bleeding profusely -- an image her mother told CNN would be forever seared in her mind.


According to family members, Jahi went into cardiac arrest. Days later, she was declared brain dead.

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I've bolded the relevant parts that show she did in fact wake up after surgery. Maybe you could point out the part that you find comparable to the parents "running over their own child."

The child should've been moved the moment malpractice became an issue. Anything else clouds the issue.

Pointing it bluntly, from one point of view -- the same people who said she would be fine are the same people trying to kill her.The mother I'm sure is in seven layers of denial, aided by an irrational environment. All the medical science in the world will not change that. Imho.

They say there's no blood flow to the brain--the brain is responsible for 20% of the body's total energy consumption. There's no way she still has any brain function going on. I wonder what caused the sudden and profuse bleeding, though. Did they miss a test for clotting factor or something in her history? Surgery is a stress on the body. I have to wonder if there wasn't some underlying issue, like a weak spot in an artery, that wouldn't be tested for or even suspected in such a young patient.

There really isn't enough information in the story to say what went wrong. But it sure looks to me like there's no hope. Maybe Mom can find some other good thing to do with that money--a scholarship fund, or preventative health care fund?

You can't rationalize an end of life scenario, and millions of opinions trying to hammer facts and figures into the head of a grieving parent isn't going to change that. All it's going to do is make her lock down harder into a defensive posture. When you're grieving, everything comes into your brain as us vs. them, and in that state, this is a mother protecting her child. The best thing for her and her family is the one thing that won't happen -- for the press to back off and keep this from being a top news story. Then the girl's mother could have a chance to process in peace.

These Mean Streets said:

... if anyone here is comfortable consigning their child to death, even if there's the slightest chance they might one day open their eyes - more power to you. I couldn't do it.

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thought i was the only one -- whew.

yeah. talk about killing your babies: this girl is not a character in a book.

the parents' plunge into this precipice started when they agreed to what appears to be unessential surgery. bad move, and now they will pay with the heaviest currency possible.

I'd feel bad leaving an empty shell of a body in a bed. Her brain is dead, she's, for all intents and purposes, dead. IMO.

robjvargas said:

There is no such thing as a "safe" surgery. Complications are always possible. And it sounds like the hospital screwed up being prepared for that. But that's done. Now we're here..

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I think there are legitimate questions to be asked about her after care given that she survives the surgery, regained consciousness for an extended period, and then apparently bleed to death (or at least bleed a lot and also died).

But that issue cannot be addressed until this one is resolved, and I doubt the delay will help make for a better inquiry,

zarada said:

the parents' plunge into this precipice started when they agreed to what appears to be unessential surgery. bad move, and now they will pay with the heaviest currency possible.

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Unessential? Well, not exactly frivolous as they were removing tonsils and adenoids in a bid to treat serious sleep apnea. It is done mainly to ensure children have better quality of life and are more likely to be successful in education (because they are not exhausted during the day).

These Mean Streets said:

But then again, I do see the hospital's point. I mean they are a business. And if the patient is more profitable being harvested for body organs, well... who am I to argue with that?

All I can say is: if anyone here is comfortable consigning their child to death, even if there's the slightest chance they might one day open their eyes - more power to you. I couldn't do it.

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And that's the only possibility, is it?

Profit.

It's not that doctors just *might* actually believe her brain is beyond any function. It's not that medical professionals have exercised the best prognosis their knowledge can give them, and wish to give the child a final dignity.

Not even possible?

Just profit?

I'm certainly not going to insult the love and devotion of the family if they wish to continue fighting for a miracle. But neither do I accept insulting the professionalism and the ethics of medical specialists who've dedicated their lives to helping others.

I feel for the family, very deeply. I can't imagine the pain of even being in the position they're in. Much less which choice I'd make. And I think it's made more horrible by the appearance of some kind of malpractice here.

But I don't have to insult one side to support the other.

robjvargas said:

It's not that doctors just *might* actually believe her brain is beyond any function. It's not that medical professionals have exercised the best prognosis their knowledge can give them, and wish to give the child a final dignity.

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we can only hope that medical altruism still motivates today's medical professionals as much as the bottom line.

rugcat said:

Some may recall the case of Terri Schiavo. But in her case it was the family that wish to disconnect her from life support and the state that wished to keep her going.

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It was the state, in the form of a court finding asked for by her husband, that determined Ms Schaivo would have wished to have her life support terminated. Her husband supported that. It was her parents that fought to keep her on life support.

These Mean Streets said:

But then again, I do see the hospital's point. I mean they are a business. And if the patient is more profitable being harvested for body organs, well... who am I to argue with that?

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Having deleted several other things I wanted to say in response to this, I'll just ask: Can you provide any citations at all that a hospital either controls who donates organs after death or profits from organ donation?

Johncs said:

The child should've been moved the moment malpractice became an issue. Anything else clouds the issue.

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Move her where? The parents can't find another facility to take her, hence the extension by the judge.

These Mean Streets said:

But then again, I do see the hospital's point. I mean they are a business. And if the patient is more profitable being harvested for body organs, well... who am I to argue with that?

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That's not how organ donation works at all.

A hospital can't decide for patient or family to harvest organs; it has to be signed off by the next of kin.

There's also - literally - no monetary gain in organ harvesting. Living human body parts have a legal monetary value of $0.00. Their only value is in reference to transplant or research. And while transplant surgeries are costly, it's not likely that any organs harvested in a particular hospital would actually be used in that hospital.

zarada said:

we can only hope that medical altruism still motivates today's medical professionals as much as the bottom line.

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How exactly does a doctor profit from losing a patient in a routine procedure (good bye recovery stats, bonus and reputation) in order for some other doctor to perform some other procedure? I can't say I have ever met a doctor who came even close to thinking like that.

Not to mention I will lay down a hefty bet this that family would never consent to donation.

veinglory said:

How exactly does a doctor profit from losing a patient in a routine procedure (good bye recovery stats, bonus and reputation) in order for some other doctor to perform some other procedure? I can't say I have ever met a doctor who came even close to thinking like that.

Not to mention I will lay down a hefty bet this that family would never consent to donation.

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i wasn't thinking of organ harvesting, necessarily. and more from the point of view of the establishment than the doctor in charge of the case: patient brain-dead, waste of resources to keep her going, get her out to make room for the next case. isn't it how it usually goes?

zarada said:

we can only hope that medical altruism still motivates today's medical professionals as much as the bottom line.

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And there's nothing else? You can't be ethical, professional, *and* charge a fair fee for services?

robjvargas said:

And there's nothing else? You can't be ethical, professional, *and* charge a fair fee for services?

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yes, of course. it's possible. maybe a somewhat idealized scenario, but possible.