Bad Gestures of the Time (c. 1700)

AZ_Dawn · Sep 23, 2011

Because an upraised middle finger doesn't feel quite right for a pirate story, even if it is ancient.

I know about the two-finger salute, but not what it was called back then. I know about the bras d'honneur, but neither how old it is nor what it was called back then. Anyone else know?

Suggestion for other easily described, PG-but-woe-betide-the-kids-who-use-it-in-front-of-their-parents type gestures c.1700 are welcome, too. Especially English, French, or Spanish gestures. Thanks!

Alessandra Kelley · Sep 23, 2011

Doesn't Shakespeare reference the thumb-biting insult that's still popular in Italy today? I bet if it's okay for 17th-century England and modern Italy, it'd do for pirates c. 1700. You sort of bite the tip of your thumb with your teeth exposed, then do a sort of flick forward of the thumb.

There's also a sort of cuckold-gesture of making a fist with the thumb sticking out between the first two fingers, and another one where you point at someone with a fist, sticking out your thumb and pinky (for cuckold's "horns"), but I don't know if they were still current in 1700. They are pretty old.

Alessandra Kelley · Sep 23, 2011

I think the fist with thumb thing is called "giving a fig". I could be wrong.

Allen R. Brady · Sep 23, 2011

Allegedly, the two-finger salute arose due to the superiority of British longbows in battle. (We can beat you with two fingers!) Consequently, I have heard the gesture referred to as "the Longbowman".

Dave Hardy · Sep 23, 2011

In one of the Idle Apprentice series, the one where the apprentice is going to sea, Tom Idle makes the horns sign in response to the sailors who are taunting him. I've read that there it's a sign to ward off evil, though I suppose it could be intended as an insulting reply. It's plate 5 of Industry & Idleness.

Not sure that helps, but it's an interesting detail.

Elenitsa · Sep 24, 2011

I have heard of these gestures too. And hello AZDawn! Or... should I call you Red Dawn and my godfather here? If I am mistaking you for somebody else, sorry, and I am still glad to meet another pirate fan!

AZ_Dawn · Sep 24, 2011

Thanks, guys! This does help a bit.

Alessandra Kelley said:
Doesn't Shakespeare reference the thumb-biting insult that's still popular in Italy today? I bet if it's okay for 17th-century England and modern Italy, it'd do for pirates c. 1700. You sort of bite the tip of your thumb with your teeth exposed, then do a sort of flick forward of the thumb.

I thought it was more of a continental thing, though combined with other body language, even someone who hadn't heard of it would get the message.

There's also a sort of cuckold-gesture of making a fist with the thumb sticking out between the first two fingers, and another one where you point at someone with a fist, sticking out your thumb and pinky (for cuckold's "horns"), but I don't know if they were still current in 1700. They are pretty old.

Sounds usable!

Allen R. Brady said:
Allegedly, the two-finger salute arose due to the superiority of British longbows in battle. (We can beat you with two fingers!) Consequently, I have heard the gesture referred to as "the Longbowman".

I think that origin's been debunked, but I could check and see if the term existed back then.

AZ_Dawn · Sep 24, 2011

Elenitsa said:
I have heard of these gestures too. And hello AZDawn! Or... should I call you Red Dawn and my godfather here? If I am mistaking you for somebody else, sorry, and I am still glad to meet another pirate fan!

Hi, Elena! :welcome:

Yep, you've got the right Dawn. AZ Dawn for most web purposes; Red Dawn for pirate-related purposes.

L.C. Blackwell · Sep 24, 2011

http://www.word-detective.com/101797.html

This is down further in the page, and I can't find an in-text link, but thumbing one's nose--"cocking a snook"--made it into a dictionary as early as 1791, by which I gather people were doing it long before that.

While the phrase "thumb one's nose" first appeared in English around 1903, "cocking a snook" is much older, first appearing in print back in 1791. The verb "to cock" comes from strutting behavior of male chickens, and means, as the Oxford English Dictionary puts it, "to turn up in an assertive, pretentious, jaunty, saucy, or defiant way." The "snook" is of uncertain origin, but may be related to "snout," which would certainly make sense.

Bad Gestures of the Time (c. 1700)

AZ_Dawn

AW Addict

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

Alessandra Kelley

Sophipygian

Allen R. Brady

Dave Hardy

Don't let your deal go down,

Elenitsa

writing as Marina Costa

AZ_Dawn

AW Addict

AZ_Dawn

AW Addict

L.C. Blackwell

Keeper of Fort Blanket