So should gun-owning school teachers carry their personal guns in the classroom?

kuwisdelu

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There are other places to get into fights, if you want to. School's really not a good place for it.

I was afraid of being arrested no matter where it was. Not just in school.

Now that I think about it, I wonder if race had anything to do with it.

ETA: All I know for sure is the fear of going to jail as a child has given me an unhealthy and negative perspective toward law enforcement to this day. I still view cops with suspicion and distrust.
 

kuwisdelu

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Ah, yes. Such an uncommon feeling among highschoolers. Don't know how we handle it. :p

I LIKED high school. Lately, I've been really wishing I were back in high school, because I miss it so much. But my high school was pretty cool and reasonable about these things. Didn't even care where on campus we hung out during free periods if we didn't have a class. Only time we ever got locked in was when the bank across the street was robbed (happened about once a month), but that actually made sense, because there was a clear and immediate danger nearby when it happened.

But a school with the kinds of rules people in this thread are talking about? Fuck that. No wonder most American kids hate high school.
 

ladyleeona

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I was afraid of being arrested no matter where it was. Not just in school.

My husband largely felt the same way. He's a minority. Didn't help that virtually all the cops in our area were white dudes.

And I just have to say, if we're that concerned about children overpowering teachers to get their gun, or kids stealing the gun, or the availability of a gun escalating a fist fight into a shooting, it really speaks to the kind of young people we are raising today.
 

kuwisdelu

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My husband largely felt the same way. He's a minority. Didn't help that virtually all the cops in our area were white dudes.

The only non-white cops I've seen in real life in person have been on the Rez.

ETA: And when I think about it, I do have a strong association in my mind between "cop" and "white, heterosexual male."
 
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Katrina S. Forest

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And I just have to say, if we're that concerned about children overpowering teachers to get their gun, or kids stealing the gun, or the availability of a gun escalating a fist fight into a shooting, it really speaks to the kind of young people we are raising today.

IMHO, how the kids are raised has little to do with it. There are kids with mental and emotional issues. There are kids who are full of rage and sadness because they recently lost a parent. There are kids who are constantly stressed because they know their family can barely afford food. There are kids who rarely see their parents due to work hours the parent has no control over. These kids are going to come to school. The teachers' job is to provide a safe environment for all of them, not just the kids who were "raised right" in stable homes without any tragedy or mental issues.

So any safety issue you discuss, you have to ask, is this safe for every kid, not just some?
 
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rugcat

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The only non-white cops I've seen in real life in person have been on the Rez.

ETA: And when I think about it, I do have a strong association in my mind between "cop" and "white, heterosexual male."
If you lived in San Francisco your perception might be quite different.
 

kuwisdelu

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If you lived in San Francisco your perception might be quite different.

Perhaps, but unfortunately, I live in Indiana. For now.

Off-topic, but I really liked LA when I stayed there for a while, and I'll be spending next semester in Palo Alto.
 

backslashbaby

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I think locked classrooms are an eminently practical and cost effective, first-line passive defense. It's something any school can do and even if the effect is only a placebo.

A prohibition of hall passes to use the bathroom needn't be a "zero tolerance" rule either. Most middle school and high school student can hold it till the end of class, and exceptions can be made for those in real need.

I think police in the schools is more problematic. Most of the shooting incidents in schools that I can remember have been in schools were not what anyone would call "high risk". Therefore, we'd have to put police in all the schools just. That may not be viable as a long-term solution and may even make kids feel less safe. After all, if there's a cop in the school, he or she must be there for a reason and therefore there must be something to be afraid of.

I so wish a cop at been at my school before I graduated. Freshman year, my locker was right in where a brawling group liked to do their thing. My head got slammed in by accident many times. Bodies flying at you -- no kidding. And they kept stealing my purse if I bent down to pick anything up with my locker open, dammit.

That's not even mentioning the actual harrassment (groping) that came in a different building the next year. There's too much to mention!

If cops can keep kids from accidentally slamming into little naive girls while they fight, I'm happier. If a kid's school has a less unruly population, just pet the cop dog, then ;) And count yourself lucky.
 

Monkey

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The only non-white cops I've seen in real life in person have been on the Rez.

ETA: And when I think about it, I do have a strong association in my mind between "cop" and "white, heterosexual male."

That's unfortunate, and probably does shape your views. If you ever visit Austin, you'll probably be surprised at the number of minority and female cops; come to South Texas, and you'll see a whole lot of 'em with brown skin.
 

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So should gun-owning school teachers carry their personal guns in the classroom?

Yes, if they so desire.

I'd rather there was a cop perpetually on duty at every school.

I don't have a problem with this, either.
 

Unimportant

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In the US, there are about 70 million children/young adults in schools. Assuming you'd need one cop on duty per 500 students, and the cost of a cop (salary, uniform, transport, admin) is $50K, it'd cost about $7,000,000,000.00 annually to fund this. Would taxpayers be willing to wear this?
 

Monkey

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As I was driving through a school zone today, something occurred to me:

We let licensed drivers go 35 through residential areas, near parks, and through other areas where there are often children at play. School zones are different.

Just like we let licensed gun owners carry in residential areas, parks, and other areas where there are kids... but school zones are different.

Just a thought.

I've seen nothing to contradict the points I made in my initial post on this subject...


ETA:

Unimportant (and others who have addressed cost: ) A good number of schools in this area have officers on duty; some are present randomly, others are full time. Some volunteer, others are on duty and are therefore paid by the police station, and others are hired as part-time employees making very low wages. I don't know of any school that has paid an officer's full yearly salary. Why would they?
 

backslashbaby

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That's unfortunate, and probably does shape your views. If you ever visit Austin, you'll probably be surprised at the number of minority and female cops; come to South Texas, and you'll see a whole lot of 'em with brown skin.

Here, too. I haven't seen a lot of Latino cops yet, but I wouldn't blink an eye. We have a whole lot of women, for some reason.

Kuwi, I'm sure your looks probably had to do with the impression you were given :( That part, I don't know about (personally) at all.
 

veinglory

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In most of my classrooms I was more terrified of other kids than anyone who might storm in. The thought of those kids maybe getting a gun makes me feel sick even now. So I'd have been happier if there wasn't one in the room. I watched my peers beat a teacher and lock another teacher in a cupboard, kill the classroom pet, and more. I once took a knife to school. And this is in a wealthy neighborhood with great exam scores, not some stereotypical 'ghetto'. IMHO that classroom was scary enough without a gun toting teacher. (Some of those teachers were crazy, seriously crazy.)
 

Unimportant

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Unimportant (and others who have addressed cost: ) A good number of schools in this area have officers on duty; some are present randomly, others are full time. Some volunteer, others are on duty and are therefore paid by the police station, and others are hired as part-time employees making very low wages. I don't know of any school that has paid an officer's full yearly salary. Why would they?
Ah, I didn't realise it was already commonplace. I thought the local police depts would have to hire new officers to be on full time duty at each school, which would require a substantial increase in the federal law-enforcement budget, which comes from tax revenues.
 

T. Trian

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So should gun-owning school teachers carry their personal guns in the classroom?

Yes, if they so desire.

I'd rather there was a cop perpetually on duty at every school.

I don't have a problem with this, either.

I would just add that the teachers should be trained in using their guns because non-trained people + guns = disaster.

Same goes for the possible LEO as well since from what I've heard, way too many don't hone their shootnig skills anymore than is absolutely necessary to keep their jobs.
 

Summonere

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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If we're going to set aside schools as special cases, then asking that teachers or other school personnel who want to carry weapons should undergo additional training is better than what we presently have (teachers not allowed to carry).[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The instant solution, however, would be to let school personnel carry their concealed weapons to school right now, or to require local police to assign one cop to each school.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]There are, however, more teachers than cops, many of whom would be ready and willing to carry their duly concealed and licensed weapons, creating no additional financial burden to the schools or city. (At least until the ink on the new insurance contracts dries.) [/FONT]

I would just add that the teachers should be trained in using their guns because non-trained people + guns = disaster.

M[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]ore training is always better than less, or none.[/FONT]

Same goes for the possible LEO as well since from what I've heard, way too many don't hone their shootnig skills anymore than is absolutely necessary to keep their jobs.

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Many are good. Many are terrible. But whether a good or a terrible shot, the armed man has a better chance against an active shooter than an unarmed man.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The best way to stop an active shooter is to shoot him. [/FONT]
 

kuwisdelu

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Why do we need an instant solution? The world didn't dramatically change overnight.

Personally, I'm not comfortable with teachers carrying guns.

If there are guns on a campus, they should be uniformed law enforcement, IMO.
 

DancingMaenid

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The main thing that would concern me about locking classroom doors is the potential risk if there was a fire, violent student, or other emergency inside the classroom. But as long as the door could still be opened from the inside while locked, that wouldn't be a problem.
 

Williebee

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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]The instant solution, however, would be to let school personnel carry their concealed weapons to school right now, or to require local police to assign one cop to each school.[/FONT]

Had there been an armed guard or a cop in the school in Newtown, the mere size of the place says the odds are against the guard being where the shooter was at the time of his entrance. But the suggestion does offer up the possibility of them exchanging gunfire in a classroom full of children. (ETA: That might have saved some children's lives, or might have just added another adult to the fatality list.)

I work in schools that have 12-15 buildings spread across three city blocks, and a few that are the only building in town. In neither case would an armed guard provide more than a small area of protection. It's just a silly idea.

Not as unfortunate as the idea of arming teachers, but still.

I'm not sure how many times we've been around this circle, so far, in this thread, but it's more than once.

There is no "instant solution." Just as we did not "instantly" get to this point, we will not instantly get out of it.

A gun is not a magic wand.
 
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Williebee

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The main thing that would concern me about locking classroom doors is the potential risk if there was a fire, violent student, or other emergency inside the classroom. But as long as the door could still be opened from the inside while locked, that wouldn't be a problem.

I can only speak to Illinois, on this, but per the Health, Life, Safety inspections, exterior public school doors have "crash bars" -- the bar that runs horizontally across the door about waist high, to allow anyone inside to gain access to the outside simply by resting their weight against the bar.

All eighteen schools in my county (and two private ones) have exterior doors are supposed to (by school policy) remain locked to outside access during school hours. The same with the Pre-Kindergarten facilities.

They have a camera and buzzer system at the front door and some have electronic key fobs that staff can use to trigger the unlocking of the door.
 

DancingMaenid

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I can only speak to Illinois, on this, but per the Health, Life, Safety inspections, exterior public school doors have "crash bars" -- the bar that runs horizontally across the door about waist high, to allow anyone inside to gain access to the outside simply by resting their weight against the bar.

All eighteen schools in my county (and two private ones) have exterior doors are supposed to (by school policy) remain locked to outside access during school hours. The same with the Pre-Kindergarten facilities.

They have a camera and buzzer system at the front door and some have electronic key fobs that staff can use to trigger the unlocking of the door.

But by "exterior," doesn't that mean doors leading outside? Not interior doors, such as classroom doors that lead into the hall?

I know exterior doors can usually be opened from the inside. I would hope most interior doors can be, too, but I'm not sure if all school buildings (particularly older ones) are like that or not.