Self publishing book promo?

Status
Not open for further replies.

L.A. Tripp

Registered
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
31
Reaction score
1
Location
Inside your mind . . .
What I'm having a problem with, mostly, is the fairy tale that being signed by a big house automatically equals success. It does not.

Major houses, again, don't put out just "a few" titles each. No one knows what or who will be the next big thing, so every new author is a gamble. But I've already covered all of that.

Does anyone understand what a back list is? Or why a marketing team is vital to a major publisher?
http://www.midwestbookreview.com/bookbiz/advice/majpub.htm
This article alone tells you a lot about what to expect in reality with a major publisher.

http://www.ehow.com/list_5858743_list-top-publishing-companies.html
2,000 a year . . . I guess is "a few"?

I've already said this, but I'll repeat it. Major houses simply cannot be fiscally responsible and put money behind every single book they offer in their catalog. They put money behind ones they know or believe strongly will be a success.

A book store has x amount of square feet of shelf space available. They have more than one major house, plus many minor houses competing for every single inch of shelf space. Each major house has a catalog of thousands of titles vying for that shelf space for each bookstore. Sure, you may get a few books in one store, in one city, but there are absolutely no guarantees saying you will get shelf space in even half of the stores of a particular chain. That decision is up to the manager of each store.

Alright, my research was a bit off on some of those books, I'll give you that:
http://www.jimchines.com/2009/09/self-publishing-myths/
But not all of them. Christopher Paolini is in an area of grey apparently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eragon
Notice he spent some time doing a promo tour. Most new authors, and many established authors, with a major house would have to do the same thing to promote their books, so how is that any different in the amount of effort?

Vein, I don't disagree about the norm, but I also responded to that in an earlier post about going overboard or using fiscal common sense. It's up the individual author to use common sense in what they spend and where they market, etc. If more people paid attention to what they were doing and used some common sense, that "norm" may not be such a "norm" anymore.

And yes, I agree with you that most of them are still looking for that professional contract, but that also backs up my argument. The professional contract they get is because they were willing to put in the effort on their own to begin with and the major house noticed them, saw that they wouldn't have to bankroll this person, they already built a platform etc., because that person was willing to put in the effort for their own success.

I just, personally, prefer living in reality, and realizing that a signed contract with a major house does not automatically equal success, best sellers lists, and major money in the bank. There are back lists and marketing teams for a reason. Our job, when signed to a major publisher for the first time, is to get OFF of those back lists. Which takes effort.
 

jennontheisland

the world is at my command
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
7,270
Reaction score
2,125
Location
down by the bay
Using a bit of logic, why does a large house NEED a marketing team if each and every book is GUARANTEED shelf space?
Large houses are "guaranteed" shelf space BECAUSE they have a marketing team.

Because the publisher does marketing.

Not the author.

Promotion (what authors do) and marketing (what publishers do) are very different things.
 
Last edited:

L.A. Tripp

Registered
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
31
Reaction score
1
Location
Inside your mind . . .
jen, if every single book is guaranteed shelf space . . . what is the NEED for a marketing team? A marketing team's job is to SELL your particular book to each store. Because, again, the back list has way more book options available than what shelf space is available. There are some books (house hold name authors) that the store will automatically carry no matter what the author comes out with, because they KNOW those will sell. For every other author, the marketing team has to go to work for you.
 

jennontheisland

the world is at my command
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
7,270
Reaction score
2,125
Location
down by the bay
jen, if every single book is guaranteed shelf space . . . what is the NEED for a marketing team? A marketing team's job is to SELL your particular book to each store. Because, again, the back list has way more book options available than what shelf space is available. There are some books (house hold name authors) that the store will automatically carry no matter what the author comes out with, because they KNOW those will sell. For every other author, the marketing team has to go to work for you.
Yeah, their job is to sell your book to retailer. That's their only job. They aren't writing books. They're selling them. That's all they do, all day, for the duration of their employment. They are a dedicated sales team. That's how books get onto shelves. They are sold by the marketing team. Since the author is off, you know, writing books and stuff.

This "guarantee" of yours is actually the result of a hard working marketing force employed by the publisher.

Your logic is that of a schizophrenic who decides to go off his meds because he's feeling fine.
 

L.A. Tripp

Registered
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
31
Reaction score
1
Location
Inside your mind . . .
jen, before you bash me with your last line . . . look at the complete argument you are making. Yes, that's the marketing team's job, their only job, the job they are specifically hired to do. Again, if you, the author, are guaranteed shelf space . . . what . . . is . . . the specific need of even having, hiring, paying, employing a marketing team? If each author is guaranteed shelf space that particular business is literally throwing money out of the window by paying a marketing team.

Once again, I ask, do you know what a back list is?
 

jennontheisland

the world is at my command
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
7,270
Reaction score
2,125
Location
down by the bay
jen, before you bash me with your last line . . . look at the complete argument you are making. Yes, that's the marketing team's job, their only job, the job they are specifically hired to do. Again, if you, the author, are guaranteed shelf space . . . what . . . is . . . the specific need of even having, hiring, paying, employing a marketing team? If each author is guaranteed shelf space that particular business is literally throwing money out of the window by paying a marketing team.

Once again, I ask, do you know what a back list is?
Think about what you're saying. Any author published with a big house is "guaranteed" shelf space?

This is not true. They are secured shelf space by the publisher's marketing team.

If that team disappeared, there would be no one but the author actively working to get their book in stores. And if the author is marketing, the author is not writing. In which case the author will not be able to build a back list.

You're on the right circle but you're going the wrong way.

Authors are not guaranteed shelf space. Shelf space is sold by the publisher's marketing team.

No team == No space == No "guarantee."
 

L.A. Tripp

Registered
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
31
Reaction score
1
Location
Inside your mind . . .
jen, that's exactly what I'm saying, you as the author are NOT guaranteed shelf space. Not even from the marketing team. Again, what is the team's purpose? If every single author is guaranteed shelf space, what is the purpose of the marketing team? It's not needed if every author is guaranteed shelf space. The team is unnecessary. It's a waste of money.

Here's another interesting tidbit referring back to Mark Twain. He, in fact, did self-publish:
http://www.humorwriters.org/lakotamoon.html
. . . even though he was already successful with a publisher.
 

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
13,954
Reaction score
1,751
Location
Coastal Desert
And, as already pointed, he went bankrupt doing it. How is that an example of success?
 

L.A. Tripp

Registered
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
31
Reaction score
1
Location
Inside your mind . . .
Is that book an unknown book today? I also mentioned the balance of someone who publishes maintaining a balance, financially, did I not? I'm not in any way advocating spending yourself into oblivion. But that doesn't mean you can't be a success unless you do so.

It's obvious you all want to remain steadfast in the viewpoint of saying self-publishing is committing suicide without looking at the bigger picture. And that getting signed with a big house is an automatic open door to riches and fame, again with out looking at the truth of the big picture.

I see not a person has yet answered with any knowledge of the back list.
 

jennontheisland

the world is at my command
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
7,270
Reaction score
2,125
Location
down by the bay
jen, that's exactly what I'm saying, you as the author are NOT guaranteed shelf space. Not even from the marketing team. Again, what is the team's purpose? If every single author is guaranteed shelf space, what is the purpose of the marketing team? It's not needed if every author is guaranteed shelf space. The team is unnecessary. It's a waste of money.

Here's another interesting tidbit referring back to Mark Twain. He, in fact, did self-publish:
http://www.humorwriters.org/lakotamoon.html
. . . even though he was already successful with a publisher.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea of "guaranteed" shelf space. But since in this post you're insisting that no one is guaranteed space,

jen, that's exactly what I'm saying, you as the author are NOT guaranteed shelf space.

and immediately afterward saying that marketing teams are unnecessary because every single author is guaranteed shelf space

If every single author is guaranteed shelf space, what is the purpose of the marketing team? It's not needed if every author is guaranteed shelf space. The team is unnecessary. It's a waste of money.
I have no fucking clue what you're talking about.

I'm starting to wonder if you do.
 
Last edited:

L.A. Tripp

Registered
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
31
Reaction score
1
Location
Inside your mind . . .
Oh my God. Jen, please read my posts before you put me down.

No where did I say that I believe every author is guaranteed shelf space. I've said completely the opposite.

Jen, please re-read what I've been saying about marketing teams and shelf space. I think you are misunderstanding me . . . or I've been not typing what I'm actually thinking.
 

jennontheisland

the world is at my command
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
7,270
Reaction score
2,125
Location
down by the bay
Whether or not you're typing what you're thinking, you're really not making much sense, and not supporting your arguement (whatever it is) well.
 

L.A. Tripp

Registered
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
31
Reaction score
1
Location
Inside your mind . . .
1. You are saying because the house has a marketing team each and every single author in that houses catalog is guaranteed shelf space. Correct?
 

L.A. Tripp

Registered
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
31
Reaction score
1
Location
Inside your mind . . .
Ok, so you don't believe each author is guaranteed shelf space, but that each house is guaranteed shelf space. We're on the same page with that, then. Which goes to my argument that each new author has to expect to promote themselves.
 

jennontheisland

the world is at my command
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Jul 17, 2006
Messages
7,270
Reaction score
2,125
Location
down by the bay
No. Houses are not guaranteed shelf space. But the ones with solid and experienced marketing teams are more likely to make sales.

Promotion and Marketing are not the same thing.

And no, not every author does promo and some of them do quite well without it. I believe Veinglory has already mentioned her own examples.
 

L.A. Tripp

Registered
Joined
May 28, 2010
Messages
31
Reaction score
1
Location
Inside your mind . . .
And that's great for veinglory, I'm happy for her. Is every author that way?

Can you explain how you see promotion and marketing? Please?

I know a few have said they are not the same thing, so how do you see the differences?
 

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless
Staff member
Super Moderator
Moderator
Super Member
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
13,954
Reaction score
1,751
Location
Coastal Desert
Is that book an unknown book today? I also mentioned the balance of someone who publishes maintaining a balance, financially, did I not? I'm not in any way advocating spending yourself into oblivion. But that doesn't mean you can't be a success unless you do so.
I'm sorry, but I can't make sense of this. What is your argument?

It's obvious you all want to remain steadfast in the viewpoint of saying self-publishing is committing suicide without looking at the bigger picture. And that getting signed with a big house is an automatic open door to riches and fame, again with out looking at the truth of the big picture.
Yes, we're saying that self-publishing without looking at the big picture is suicide, but we are NOT saying that getting signed with a "big house" is automatic fame and fortune. We're saying the chances of "success" with a commercial publisher are exponentially better there than through self-publishing.

I see not a person has yet answered with any knowledge of the back list.
Probably because we don't understand how it's relevant to "success through self-publishing".
 

veinglory

volitare nequeo
Self-Ban
Registered
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
28,750
Reaction score
2,934
Location
right here
Website
www.veinglory.com
Oh, here we go again.

I have nothing against self-publishing (this is my blog on the subject, founded in 2006: http://podpeep.blogspot.com/). There is a difference between being realistic and "hating", just as there is a difference between being successful and being enthusiastic.

I researched self-publishing for years, I read in excess of 100 self-published books and spent hours looking at all the options. I read several books about self-publishing and started a forum on the subject ( http://selfpublishing.freeforums.org/ ).

Then I didn't do it. Whenever a person makes an informed decision, not doing it should be one of the options. (Although I am currently thinking of self-publishing an anthology of short story reprints because it is better and not doing anything more with them).

Why did I not self-publish? Because I work full time and cannot devote the efforts and resources to editing, design, distribution, marketing and promotion that it requires to get the same results more easily acheived by even a small epublisher. I decided I prefer to spend my free time writing.

Other people have other resources and other types of manuscript. But anyone thinking that promotion of a self-published book is as easy and profitable as promotion of a commercial published book is frankly kidding themself. Dollar for dollar, commericial publishing is easier than self-publishing--and I took the easy way out.
 
Last edited:

PatriciaB

Registered
Joined
Jul 3, 2010
Messages
38
Reaction score
3
Okay anyone can tell me to shut up but I have to say that regardless of publisher or method of publishing...if you don't get your brand out there you're not going to sell any books.

I've got four different pubs that do print, ebook, and possibly audio in the near future. Do I sit on my butt and do nothing when a book comes out and wait for the bookstores to take my books?

No, because I don't know about you but when I approach a store and get told...yes we'll carry your book for 45% consignment...only after you've brought in x amount and they sell/sign - I get pissed.

I don't mean to come across as snarky here, but I have a friend of mine who is self-pubbed, and her sales are good, they aren't great, they haven't made her a lot of money but she's willing to do the leg work.

What's the budget for marketing? Travel? Do you have contacts in the 'reader's and buyers' world? Sadly, its not what you know...but who. My first book was a #1 bestseller (I'm not bragging here) but I did a lot of pounding the pavement and talking about it. I worked hard to get that book out there before the publics eye, and sadly being published with a NY house, or a smaller press, or even self-pubbed would have made little difference. I had to build my Brand in the minds of readers.

Self-pubbed authors are no different then those who go through a publisher...what you have to understand is that where I have graphic designers, editors, proofreaders, marketing people behind me...if you self publish your book you are responsible for doing all of it.

You can't just hand in a sheet that says this is what I vision my cover to look like and go about your merry way promoting your book...No you have to purchase the artwork, spend the time designing it, proofreading and editing your own story (harder than you think), formatting it, finding a reputable press to print it, purchase your ISBN, copyrighting it, registering it with the National Library, negotiating with distributors, settling on a price, are you mailing it out? downloading it? ...and all before you can begin to promote your book.

I do NOT hate self-publishing, but in todays world of independent presses and e-books why not give it a shot to see if you can get one of them to help you market you and your work?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.