Purgatory's Pit of Doom

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Cricket18

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{{{Ink}}} Yes, it was time to kick Monday to the curb 12-ish hours ago.

Cat, FSOG was self-pubbed, I believe. It became a hit and was then acquired by a traditional publisher....
 

Amarie

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There's no way FSofG would have been picked up through the traditional path as a mainstream book. Too far outside the mould.

And while I almost hate to compare Harry Potter in the same post with it, HP also fell outside the standard, and that's why there was such a small initial print run from a smallish company. At the time it was considered too long for children's book.
 

soulcascade

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Mornin Pit!

How did this writer break through the ties that bind conservative publishing?????

Like others have said, FSoG was originally self-published, I believe. Since it sold huge numbers, I don't think anyone in publishing would have an issue with it. Publishing is more about making money than producing 'quality' work IMO. That's why such epic works like 'A sh0re Th1ng' and C0nfessions of a gu1dett3' get published all the time. No quality whatsoever, but the pub thought they could make a buck...

Interesting on HM. The comments in that link are interesting too...very intersting
 

Teriann

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I'm probably late to the party but...woah. Given all the shit currently going on in Big 6 Land, I mean, it seems like the writing's on the wall. I wonder, then, why I still really really want to be pubbed by a Big 6-er knowing that it doesn't mean what it used to mean..


. . . Publishing is more about making money than producing 'quality' work IMO. That's why such epic works like 'A sh0re Th1ng' and C0nfessions of a gu1dett3' get published all the time. No quality whatsoever, but the pub thought they could make a buck...

Interesting on HM. The comments in that link are interesting too...very intersting

I think I messed up the quote. Not sure Roly said all that . . .

Hi, Guys. I haven't been around because I can only manage one thing on line at a time. For months, the only thing I did on line was post on AW.

Since I got back from Texas, I've become a publishing news junkie.

I've been compulsively following changes in publishing, commentary on the new direction of publishing, the DOJ law suit, finding blogs on all sides of the question (Shatzk1n Files, for example) the AAR and Simon L1pskar letter to the DOJ, and on and on.

As Kell said, HHM filed for debt restructuring, not actual bankrupcy. (Chapter 11 v. Chapter 13.) If they're smart with how they restructure, they'll emerge strong.

The part I like about FSofG's success is that she busted out of the narrowly defined box. The part I don't like is the defnition of "success."
 

Roly

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Hey Teri, sorry to see you back here. And no I don't think I said all that lol.

What I don't like is how all these women are idolizing the MC and thinking he's the perfect man, when he is so clearly abusive. This is what women think is ideal? Really? Are Americans so sexually repressed that this somewhat poorly-written book is getting them hot and bothered over a bit of control and spanking?
Yeah. American culture is very conservative already regardless of what tea party-ers might say. Conservative + sexual repression + patriarchal culture in which abusive men are seen as the ideal = 50 Shades success.

Like Teri said, at the very least, it shows that books that fall outside the norm can be successful (regardless of how problematic they actually are). It reminds me of my last rejection from Publisher X. More than two interns loved loved loved my book and gave it "vehement yes's." Months later, the editor came back and mysteriously rejected it, saying 'sorry the voice is too young.' The only thing I can take from that is that the book IS readable, IS enjoyable, but DOESN'T fit the narrow box publisher's are using to define YA lit, so it's a no go. Black heroine? No insta-love, no MC who sounds like a sexually repressed 30 year old, no abuse= love bullshit is probably part of the reason why it was rejected. But that doesn't mean that it can't be done.

Lots of agents/editors/pubs are trying to paint Amazon/self-publishing in a bad light, and I agree that Amazon isn't 'innocent,' but part of that demonization is coming from the fact that pubs no longer are the sole way of getting books out there. You can bypass the gatekeepers, if you're dedicated enough and work hard enough (though it may not end up in the success you dreamed of - not everyone can be a H0ck1ng or an EL. J@m3s). Still, there are ways. That, at the very least, is comforting. Sort of. And yet a part of me WOULD like to publish with a big pub. But another part of me knows that if I don't, it's not the end.

This is an interesting blogpost: http://jakonrath.blogspot.ca/2012/05/exploited-writers-in-unfair-industry.html

Writers, like many types of artists, are driven to create. Go to any party and mention you're a writer, and no doubt you'll get the response, "I want to write a book someday" or "I'm writing a book now."

Because books are made of words, and everyone uses words, a disproportionate number of people want to write. And because writing is more subjective than painting or music, it is much easier to deceive oneself that one is a good writer. Because of this, there are a LOT of writers and wannabe writers. Though success depends on an individual's goals, in my generation the only way to become a successful writer was to sell a book to a publisher.

This is a system ripe for exploitation. A lot of hungry, eager artists, and a limited number of slots for big publishing to fill.

Because of this, publishers had all the power. And bargaining from a position of power usually works out well for the powerful, and not so well for the opposing party.

Decades of this unfair advantage lead to our current Publishing Culture. Here are the rules:

1. As long as publishers control distribution, publishers have a lot of power.
2. As long as there are more writers than slots in publishers' lists, writers have limited power.
3. As long as writers consider writing to be a dream rather than a job, writers have limited power.
4. As long as agents have more requests for representation than they can handle, agents have a lot of power.
5. The powerful naturally develop a sense of entitlement.
6. The weak naturally develop Boxer Syndrome.

What is Boxer Syndrome?

Consider Animal Farm by George Orwell. In it was a horse named Boxer. Boxer worked his butt off to appease the pigs in power. The pigs got rich off of Boxer's efforts, but never amply rewarded him. Boxer continued to support his own exploitation, steadfastly believing in the pigs, even after the pigs ultimately sold him for slaughter and bought whiskey with the profit.

That, in a nutshell, is the mindset the majority of newbie writers, and a great deal of professional writers, have adopted. We're Boxers.

In the meantime, the publishers (pigs) have developed a sense of entitlement. They see books, and authors, as fungible. If a book or author doesn't succeed, drop it and try another one.

When ebooks arrived on the scene, and key costs could be removed from distribution (delivery, printing, corrugation, distribution) did the publishers accept their previous profit margins and give the authors more of the pie?

No. The publishers made a land grab and kept the money they would have otherwise paid out, taking 52.5% of net and leaving authors 17.5%.

On a $25 hardcover, the author made $3.75 and the publisher made $4.50.

On a $25 ebook, the author made $3.12, and the publisher made $9.37.*

The authors' share went down. The publishers' share doubled. And authors didn't complain. Agents didn't complain. No one complained.

Then Amazon created the Kindle.
Just a bit of it.

What do you think? Oh, and is it true that publishers can sneak in a clause that states that they own your characters? I've even heard of publishers dropping an author because after publishing with them, he published a separate series with Amazon. Is that the sort of thing that can happen, and how do you protect yourself (and aren't agents supposed to protect ppl from that? lol)?
 
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Teriann

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Roly, all I will say is that I cannot give an honest opinion of much of Konrath's recent half dozen pieces in public. If all I had was my first contract, I could, but my second is in progress. I probably won't be able to comment for another 5 years.

(Except for the agent stuff. I'm not afraid of offending agents at this point. :)But you probably shouldn't get me started on the AAR and L1pskar letters to the DOJ, at least on AW. Elsewhere, perhaps.)

I'll say this: His interpretation of the DOJ lawsuit has some merit.
 

soulcascade

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Haha Roly said half of your quote, Teri. I said the other half ;)

ETA Roly just read your post and +1 to what you said.
 
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Snappy

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Morning Pit.

The biggest question for writers in publishing, IMHO, whether traditional pub, epub, or self-pub is... HOW do I stand out? If we could figure out the formula of what makes a book go viral, then we'd all be bestsellers.
 

Teriann

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P.S. Roly, I've never seen a slimy publishing contract, butI haven't seen many. I have seen some that were badly written, cut and pasted together, but that was ineptitude rather than deviousness.

Also, I don't believe that broad non-compete clauses are enforceable. They've never been tested in the courts. High tech companies in the Silicon Valley a while back had employees sign non-compete clauses promising that they would not work for competitors for X number of years. After the employees quit they found they couldn't work because they were only qualified to work for competitors. Courts said that non-compete clauses were illegal because a contract which prevents a person from working and earning a living is unconstitutional (I could have details of this wrong - it's off the top of my head after many years)

I think telling writers they cannot publish competing material is also similarly illegal and that such contracts cannot be enforced, unless the clause is very narrowly construed. Mine just says I will not publish material which competes. Well, that's pretty widely open to interpretation. I signed it figuring, "Okay, I won't publish a book about the particular incident in history my book treats."

On the other hand, if you sign a contract giving the publisher sole right to publish material with your characters, that would probably be enforceable.

Snappy: The usual answer is it's also hard to stand out with traditional publishing. Think about a wall of romance novels, each with a shelf life of 2 weeks unless it sells. The other part of the answer is if its good readers will eventually find it. The operative word is "eventually" -- ebooks don't go out of print.
 

SteveCordero

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Good stuff, Roly, and JK makes a lot of sense. That specific quote is spot on.

It is always about power and it's based on supply and demand.

And Snappy hit the nail on the head--the No. 1 concern is "how do I stand out?" The consumer has to know about your product in order to buy it.
 

kellion92

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Don't have time to answer at length, but I don't know if we can blame "American" culture on FSoG. It's written by a British author and was originally published by a British company. So while American readers seem to be snapping it up, the origination is elsewhere and the appeal extends to other countries as well.
 

SteveCordero

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Teri, I don't know about non-compete clauses in pub contracts, but like you noted, non-compete clauses in employee contracts are narrowly tailored to geographical location and time. Meaning, the ex-employee won't compete with the former employer for a certain period of time and in a certain area.

I don't know if such rules translate to pub contracts because it's not an employment situation. My gut says that such clauses will be limited in time, such as the author cannot compete by selling a book of a similar nature within the first print run of the book or 6 months, something like that.
 

Amarie

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my noncompete clauses are very, very narrow. One specifies that for a certain term I won't publish or cause or permit to be published any book that is a thriller for readers in the 8-14 age group with the same characters and the subject matter that would compete directly in the market place.
 

SteveCordero

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my noncompete clauses are very, very narrow. One specifies that for a certain term I won't publish or cause or permit to be published any book that is a thriller for readers in the 8-14 age group with the same characters and the subject matter that would compete directly in the market place.

Yeah, what I thought. They have to make it narrow and yours is reaaaallll narrow since they also include the same characters, which makes sense.
 

Teriann

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For an interesting counter-balance to K0nrath I enjoy The Shatzkin Files, a consultant to publishing houses, advising publishers on the move to digital.

He's the one who referred to writers as "content providers." My husband still jokes about that.

He wrote an interesting article called "Amazon's growth and its lengthening shadow," where he makes a case for trad publishing instead of self-publishing.

Another article he wrote which I found interesting was about how agency pricing "levels the playing field." K0nrath pretty much eviscerated his arguments, but they're worth reading.

I tried to find my favorite quote to put here, but I couldn't. Something about how any publishers not in a panic don't understand what is happening with the Amazon / self publishing revolution. He also wrote, "I’ve been posing two questions in recent posts: 'When does Amazon’s share growth stop?' and 'Who’s left standing when it does?'
 

Teriann

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Here's one of his interesting quotes:

"If you start from the point that the manuscript is completed, it is easy to see why many aspiring authors would choose self-publishing, primarly through Amazon (because they reach the most customers), rather than take weeks or months to find an agent who will take weeks or months to put a proposal in shape to then take weeks or months to find a publisher. And the publisher will then take months, at least, to put a book into distribution. And that’s if you succeed. Most attempts even to secure an agent — just the first step — fail."

What he misses is the actual time frame. Weeks or months to find an agent? It takes more than a few weeks to get a response to a query. Then they have to read the partial, or the full.

Weeks to find a publisher . . . ? yes, rarely. More accurate would be "months or years" to find a publisher.

Months at least for a publisher to put a book into distribution? The shortest time frame I've heard of is one year. Mine will be two years.

He's got the right idea, though.
 

alias octavia

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When you all figure it out, duck under the couch and give me a heads up ;)

I admire that you can read all of that "news" Teri. It makes my head ache. I KNOW it is important but it makes me feel even less in control than usual (and that is saying something).

Also -- (((Pit)))
 

kellion92

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Interesting, Teri and Steve. But that timeline, Teri? We could only hope!
 

Teriann

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Alias, sorry. Weird-o me. Reading the stuff doesn't particularly make me feel better, but I just keep reading it.

The timeline is off by a few years, but at least someone "inside" is thinking about how ridiculous the process is.
 

soulcascade

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Mornin Pit.

Agree that timeline is ridiculous. I'm thinking if many newbies knew the actual timeline and how many stupid reasons agents claim to R a ms they'd prob. run for the hills. (too much like such and such (for example) and then you find out a few books sold that are exactly like such and such. Or 'plot needs work' which could be valid but when you see books with plot holes so huge you could drive a car through them, well, the rage. It builds)
 

ink wench

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Teri, interesting and thanks for posting. I can't stomach searching for news myself, but I'm happy to read what others find. ;)

That timeline is definitely ridiculous on the publishing end.

Speaking of agents though, I'm getting frustrated waiting to hear back about my revision outline. I need some forward movement, and I'm not getting any news from subbing or new stuff.
 
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soulcascade

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Ink I think the timeline Teri posted is possible on both the agent and editor (as far as getting a book deal, anyway) ends. It's worked for some writers! But generally speaking, I do think it's pretty far fetched for the average writer to 'expect' to get an agent or an editor quickly. Most won't. There are always stories like yours where 'miracles' did happen but they are not the norm.

That's why I dislike how misleading these sorts of quotes can be. They make quickly getting an agent or an ed seem like the norm and that far, far from the truth for most of us...
 

Amarie

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Speaking of contracts, JK has a blog post today with some snippets from standard contracts. Some agents can get some of these changed, but not all. Every writer should at least be aware of the practice of basket accounting before signing something.
 
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