Cops defend use of pepper spray on 8-year-old

dolores haze said:

A minimum of four adults had the opportunity to handle a kid with a sharp stick having a tantrum. They all failed in their responsibility to this child. They should all be sent back to school for further training in how to do their jobs.

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How does one handle an enraged, armed, husky 8-year-old? I'm just curious, since many are declaring he could have been readily subdued without the use of pepper spray ... how is that done, exactly? If they tore the wood trim from his hands, they could have hurt his hands. It doesn't sound like he was listening to reason (and anyone who's ever witnessed a parent "reasoning" with a child in the throes of an all-out tantrum knows what a lost cause that is.)

So, those of you who think this constitutes police brutality, what should the police have done? (And please, be more specific than "I dunno, but not that".)

Maybe they should have thrown a bucket of ice cold water on him.

I don't know enough from the link to say whether the police did the right thing, but I will say that some of you appear to have a rather sepia-toned image of childhood. It's not unusual for my patients to have the police called on them, and I can easily imagine a scenario where an 8 year old posed a significant threat to others in the classroom.

For those suggesting that the police should have restrained him: Restraint is not something lightly done even in the hospital setting without a ton of documentation. Physically restraining a large agitated child could easily result in an injury to the kid. I'll bet they didn't want to touch him.

Where were we? Oh, yes. The fuzz sucks. Fight the man.

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Huh? The people "stirring the pot" are the ones hammering the cops, calling them thugs and what not, imo.

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That would depend on your POV, no? You ever been beat on by a cop for nothing but existing?* Not in the UK, but I have.

Asked and answered. Look up thread. How can I be any clearer? Again, wtf is it you're fishing for here?

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Fishing? I am fishing for what is your definitive viewpoint here. Do you or do you not think offensive weapons are a good thing to use against 8-year-olds, or not? Or do you think it depends? Do you condone two grown men ganging up on a kid who probably comes up to their balls and using an offensive weapon on him? Or do you think that, actually, a grown man should be a) able to handle it especially if he has training in how to diffuse a situation and b) considering that if the kid really is a little shit, he's half the size of one of these guys, much less two so you should be able to, with your super duper training in the matter, neutralise him with very little force and/or chemicals and c) using unnecessary force is just going to alienate him from your normal society and make him a problem in the making?

Finally - do you think an eight year old should be subjected to an offensive weapon if it is not absolutely necessary (he's got a loaded gun etc)





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clintl said:

Based on the description of the incident, I'm fine with the police using pepper spray in this case.

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agreed. people are often hurt far worse in police takedowns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3pebXlG_TI

Well, she did have a weapon. That cane looks downright lethal!

Devil Ledbetter said:

How does one handle an enraged, armed, husky 8-year-old? I'm just curious, since many are declaring he could have been readily subdued without the use of pepper spray ... how is that done, exactly? If they tore the wood trim from his hands, they could have hurt his hands. It doesn't sound like he was listening to reason (and anyone who's ever witnessed a parent "reasoning" with a child in the throes of an all-out tantrum knows what a lost cause that is.)

So, those of you who think this constitutes police brutality, what should the police have done? (And please, be more specific than "I dunno, but not that".)

Maybe they should have thrown a bucket of ice cold water on him.

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I wouldn't attempt to subdue him at all unless he was trying to hurt himself. I've been in these teachers' position a multitude of times. Here's the drill: one teacher takes the rest of the kids to the gym or another room. 2nd teacher works to calm child. If child does not calm teacher runs around the room being chased by furious child until furious child is too exhausted to continue tantrum. Teacher then praises calming child for regaining control of himself. Rinse. Repeat.

After days/weeks/months/years (depending on the individual) child learns self regulation, self calming skills, anger management, etc. If restraint - either physical or chemical continues to be use to control the child, then the child never learns to control himself. In fact, as the child in the OP states: "I got like anger things," Aiden said. "It's just who I am. I think it's not ever going to go away."

Do you or do you not think offensive weapons are a good thing to use against 8-year-olds, or not?

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Is pepper spray, by definition, an offensive weapon?

dolores haze said:

I wouldn't attempt to subdue him at all unless he was trying to hurt himself. I've been in these teachers' position a multitude of times. Here's the drill: one teacher takes the rest of the kids to the gym or another room. 2nd teacher works to calm child. If child does not calm teacher runs around the room being chased by furious child until furious child is too exhausted to continue tantrum. Teacher then praises calming child for regaining control of himself. Rinse. Repeat.

After days/weeks/months/years (depending on the individual) child learns self regulation, self calming skills, anger management, etc. If restraint - either physical or chemical continues to be use to control the child, then the child never learns to control himself. In fact, as the child in the OP states: "I got like anger things," Aiden said. "It's just who I am. I think it's not ever going to go away."

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Really? You would really do this? And what if the kid catches up with the teacher? What if he hurts her, stabs her, kills her?

I'm not trying to snarky here. Just really don't get it.

This incident, which occurred yesterday a few towns over from where I live, might help to add some context to the dangers officers face when dealing with certain children.

Whether it's a threat from a knife, or a wooden spear or whatever, the wielder must be neutralized in whatever fashion brings him or her down swiftly and causes the least amount of damage to everyone involved, including bystanders.

It doesn't matter whether the person is eight years old or eighty. In this case, he was dealt with in the most humane way possible, considering the circumstances and the potential for him to cause harm to others.

The kid is lucky that no one decided to yank that stick out of his hands and beat his sorry little ass with it from here to next Sunday. That's what he really deserved, in my opinion, which would help to curtail further such outbursts in the future.

dolores haze said:

I wouldn't attempt to subdue him at all unless he was trying to hurt himself. I've been in these teachers' position a multitude of times. Here's the drill: one teacher takes the rest of the kids to the gym or another room. 2nd teacher works to calm child. If child does not calm teacher runs around the room being chased by furious child until furious child is too exhausted to continue tantrum. Teacher then praises calming child for regaining control of himself. . . snip

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Thank you.

Silver King said:

. . .snip . . . It doesn't matter whether the person is eight years old or eighty. In this case, he was dealt with in the most humane way possible, considering the circumstances and the potential for him to cause harm to others.
snip . . .

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Disagree. I think Ms. Haze is onto something.

dolores haze said:

If child does not calm teacher runs around the room being chased by furious child until furious child is too exhausted to continue tantrum. Teacher then praises calming child for regaining control of himself. Rinse. Repeat.

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I hope you're joking, because that's ludicrous. And when the child falls on his sharp stick while chasing the teacher, then what?

sulong said:

At bare minimum it was 4 adults. When you figure in the principal, superintendent, and potential school counselors, parents and so on, an amazing number of adults failed this boy.

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Sulong, I'm going out on a limb here and guess that it's the boy's parents who've mainly failed him. An 8-year-old who is still throwing tantrums is either mentally ill or has been failed repeatedly by his parents since toddlerhood.

In the interview, it's clear his mother has trained him to believe he has "anger issues" that are beyond his control and therefore excuse his behavior entirely. Why should he bother controlling himself when Mommy is always nearby with a cookie, a pat on the head and an excuse?

Teachers and police can't go back and fix the mess parents make by allowing infantile behaviors to persist into later childhood, nor can they fix developmental problems. Children should be no more having tantrums at 8 than they should be shitting in their pants. If they are, there are either major developmental problems or parental failure -- none of which can be adequately addressed or resolved by teachers or cops.

Vince524 said:

Really? You would really do this? And what if the kid catches up with the teacher? What if he hurts her, stabs her, kills her?

I'm not trying to snarky here. Just really don't get it.

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Yeah, really. 25+ years of working with individuals with severe behavioral challenges has taught me a thing or two. #1 the utter futility of trying to teach self control via control and punishment. #2 grow eyes in the back of your head #3 wear sneakers.

dolores haze said:

I wouldn't attempt to subdue him at all unless he was trying to hurt himself. I've been in these teachers' position a multitude of times. Here's the drill: one teacher takes the rest of the kids to the gym or another room. 2nd teacher works to calm child. If child does not calm teacher runs around the room being chased by furious child until furious child is too exhausted to continue tantrum. Teacher then praises calming child for regaining control of himself. Rinse. Repeat.

After days/weeks/months/years (depending on the individual) child learns self regulation, self calming skills, anger management, etc. If restraint - either physical or chemical continues to be use to control the child, then the child never learns to control himself. In fact, as the child in the OP states: "I got like anger things," Aiden said. "It's just who I am. I think it's not ever going to go away."

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With all of the budget cuts going on in schools and the number of teachers being laid off and the class sizes being as over-filled as they already are, is this *really* an acceptable use of a teacher's time? Where is this second teacher coming from? Is the disruption it causes to the other students' learning time worth it? And why should a teacher place him/herself in harm's way like this?

My youngest sister was like this boy. When she'd go into one of her rages, nobody was safe. She was under 4ft tall and weighed less than 70 pounds, but she did some serious damage to full-grown men. And there was NO reasoning with her. Not by anybody because she was too far gone in her rage to even be capable of listening.

Devil Ledbetter said:

I hope you're joking, because that's ludicrous. And when the child falls on his sharp stick while chasing the teacher, then what?

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Typically, I turn the chase into a game and the weapon gets dropped and forgotten. Ludicrous? No. Exhausting? Yes. Preferable to pepper spray, straight jackets and sedatives? Absolutely.

Oh, Robeiae. Just admit you kill and eat babies and kittens for breakfast and the probing will stop.

dolores haze said:

Typically, I turn the chase into a game and the weapon gets dropped and forgotten. Ludicrous? No. Exhausting? Yes. Preferable to pepper spray, straight jackets and sedatives? Absolutely.

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Clearly a gal who knows her way around ODD.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0002504/


Magdalen

Thankful for people like Dolores Haze.

TerzaRima said:

Oh, Robeiae. Just admit you kill and eat babies and kittens for breakfast and the probing will stop.

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Kittens give me gas.

I put this on my blog back in January: Krishnamurti: “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”

Our society is sick. So sick we can't even recognize it. Things will get much worse before they get better.

It is not okay to pepper spray a child. We don't teach or help our children that way.

robeiae said:

Kittens give me gas.

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Try mice!

Anaquana said:

With all of the budget cuts going on in schools and the number of teachers being laid off and the class sizes being as over-filled as they already are, is this *really* an acceptable use of a teacher's time? Where is this second teacher coming from? Is the disruption it causes to the other students' learning time worth it? And why should a teacher place him/herself in harm's way like this?

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I'm currently working in adult services which has far less funding and staffing than the school systems. Yet, somehow we manage. Yes, teaching a kid how to control himself is teaching, and as teaching is a teacher's job I would say it is indeed a good and acceptable use of a teacher's time. The kid in the OP should probably have an IEP and a behavioral protocol which details how teachers should handle such situations. If the other students went to another room then their learning time would be disrupted for only a few minutes and they would be out of danger. And there are many techniques and methods professionals can use to ensure they are not injured.

My youngest sister was like this boy. When she'd go into one of her rages, nobody was safe. She was under 4ft tall and weighed less than 70 pounds, but she did some serious damage to full-grown men. And there was NO reasoning with her. Not by anybody because she was too far gone in her rage to even be capable of listening.

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So restraint and reason did not work, huh? Maybe different methods could have helped her.

Silver King said:

This incident, which occurred yesterday a few towns over from where I live, might help to add some context to the dangers officers face when dealing with certain children.

Whether it's a threat from a knife, or a wooden spear or whatever, the wielder must be neutralized in whatever fashion brings him or her down swiftly and causes the least amount of damage to everyone involved, including bystanders.

It doesn't matter whether the person is eight years old or eighty. In this case, he was dealt with in the most humane way possible, considering the circumstances and the potential for him to cause harm to others.

The kid is lucky that no one decided to yank that stick out of his hands and beat his sorry little ass with it from here to next Sunday. That's what he really deserved, in my opinion, which would help to curtail further such outbursts in the future.

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And then his parents right after for being crappy parents. From the clip with the mom, she's a crappy parent who refuses to discipline and help her child. Making excuses and leaving him to believe that he has no control over his actions or emotions is one of the lower forms of parental shrugs out there.

Williebee said:

Is pepper spray, by definition, an offensive weapon?

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In the UK, yes, it is.

The kid is lucky that no one decided to yank that stick out of his han

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Um ,that would have been a good option> Two grown men take a stick /whatever away from a child" Front page news!*



I will still reassess if new info comes to light, but as it stands? Two grown men trained in how to subdue/diffuse a suspect with a gun/knife etc versus an eight year old with a pointy stick....Pepper spray? REally.