Taking Risks or Showing Off?

NeuroFizz · Jul 8, 2009

Cranky said:
That said...how do you know where to draw the line? How do you know when you're stretching yourself, taking risks, and where you're just starting to show off? You know, doing that, "Hey, look at me! I'm a writer, gotdammit!" type of stuff? This question is really starting to get under my skin a little, since I think not knowing the answer is holding me back. Is this something I just have to discover on my own, or are there some kind of red flags I should be looking out for? Any advice y'all have got is appreciated greatly....also, just general discussion on what the difference is would be enlightening, I think, too. Anyway, help please?

The simple answer is when your amibition to experiment and be creative ceases to be directed toward the reader. The more complex aspects have been discussed by others.

Dawnstorm said:
But B: If you fail anyway, wouldn't it be better to fail with a story you like? I mean, it would hurt less... (See where this is going?)

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this. If we fail at something we love, it will give us the incentive to roll up our sleeves to find out why it failed, to make it in to a learning experience. A failure may be just an edit or two, or a re-write away from a success. If we fail at something we merely like, we might just write it off as not worth investigating, and thus not worth turning into a way to improve and grow in our writing experience.

About the cross-genre thing. I embrace this. I find psychological suspense to be out at the end of one of the spines of the horror umbrella, so far out half of me still gets wet. The stories tend to also reach to the mystery umbrella, and even the thriller umbrella. New subgenres are created from these "tweeners." Everything doesn't have to fit in tidy boxes, particularly it we're talking about damn good stories. If you write a damn good story, your agent and editor will help determine how to best market it.

CaroGirl · Jul 8, 2009

Nothing was ever invented without first experimenting. Sometimes experimenting means things blow up in your face. But sometimes it results in the creation of something so new, it blows other people's minds instead. Result: either you have singed eyebrows, or your readers have singed brains. Successful or not, at least you know you didn't compromise.

NicoleMD · Jul 8, 2009

Cross-genre seems to be hot right now.

Also, you might try reading more short fiction. Anytime I start thinking my stuff is pushing the envelope, I just remember some of the other wacky, bizarre, twisted things I've read out there and then realize I haven't even licked the stamp yet.

Nicole

Cranky · Jul 8, 2009

NeuroFizz said:
The simple answer is when your amibition to experiment and be creative ceases to be directed toward the reader. The more complex aspects have been discussed by others.

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this. If we fail at something we love, it will give us the incentive to roll up our sleeves to find out why it failed, to make it in to a learning experience. A failure may be just an edit or two, or a re-write away from a success. If we fail at something we merely like, we might just write it off as not worth investigating, and thus not worth turning into a way to improve and grow in our writing experience.

About the cross-genre thing. I embrace this. I find psychological suspense to be out at the end of one of the spines of the horror umbrella, so far out half of me still gets wet. The stories tend to also reach to the mystery umbrella, and even the thriller umbrella. New subgenres are created from these "tweeners." Everything doesn't have to fit in tidy boxes, particularly it we're talking about damn good stories. If you write a damn good story, your agent and editor will help determine how to best market it.

Excellent advice as always, Neuro.

So, the trick facing me (aside from not showing off, and I'm beginning to get a better sense of what that's really meaning) is to just damn good stories. Ha!

CaroGirl said:
Nothing was ever invented without first experimenting. Sometimes experimenting means things blow up in your face. But sometimes it results in the creation of something so new, it blows other people's minds instead. Result: either you have singed eyebrows, or your readers have singed brains. Successful or not, at least you know you didn't compromise.

Something else to keep in mind, I think.

NicoleMD said:
Cross-genre seems to be hot right now.

Also, you might try reading more short fiction. Anytime I start thinking my stuff is pushing the envelope, I just remember some of the other wacky, bizarre, twisted things I've read out there and then realize I haven't even licked the stamp yet.

Nicole

Short fiction (which I've mostly been writing these days...I don't have the resources at the moment to tackle novels) is doing some seriously weird and cool stuff, for sure.

Tanya Egan Gibson · Jul 8, 2009

Writing and marketing, IMHO, are two very different animals. Or two very different parts of the brains. Or two very different... well, you know, things that I think need to stay separate during the writing process. Church and state .

My advice is to write what you want to write because your voice and style and the overall *energy* of your piece is going to sound and feel hobbled, otherwise, by all of the worrying about "what category does this fall into" or "is this too weird."

You're more likely to get what you want, I think, by breaking out of the pack than by figuring out how to fit into the pack. Leave the discussions of "where does this fit in" "how do we market it" and "what should/might we tweak to make it more appealing to _______" for later. Have them with your future agent, editor, and publicist.

I say this as someone who wrote the book I *wanted* to write. (I took that cliché advice about "writing the book you *wish* was on the bookstore shelf instead of writing the book that's already there. And for me, at least, that advice has made all the difference.)

Cranky · Jul 8, 2009

In my own defense, I would like to say that most of that thinking usually starts for me around the second or third draft. I don't think about categories or genres or anything until after I at least have the bones down, and usually a fair bit of meat, too.

It's only afterwards, on later edits, that I start thinking about how or if I should try to mold it. But I'm open to the idea that this is the wrong approach. Definitely lots of good food for thought here from everyone, and I appreciate it a lot. Really.

So much easier to sort this stuff out with some help.

Shweta · Jul 8, 2009

And just to be clear, when I suggest thinking about a specific ideal-reader I really do mean ideal, and non-judgmental about the content is part of ideal. I'm also against writing content "to an audience".

I just find that writing "to a reader" is a different experience -- it gets me focused on holding interest; it doesn't stop me writing the less-safe things. If anything it gets me to write the less-safe things (gotta pick that reader right though, I guess).

Cranky · Jul 8, 2009

I can see the sense in that, Shweta. And I think trying that will help me purge the mental image I now have of Cormac McCarthy scoffing at my stories as I write, lol.

SPMiller · Jul 8, 2009

Um. You have nothing to worry about from Mr McCarthy. Did you read his 2007 Pulitzer winner? Yeah, that book is purple in its own special way, and the story didn't have much of a point. The man has an obsession with adjectives and similes, and it's terribly distracting. You have your own strengths.

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 8, 2009

Cranky said:
That said...how do you know where to draw the line? How do you know when you're stretching yourself, taking risks, and where you're just starting to show off? You know, doing that, "Hey, look at me! I'm a writer, gotdammit!" type of stuff? This question is really starting to get under my skin a little, since I think not knowing the answer is holding me back. Is this something I just have to discover on my own, or are there some kind of red flags I should be looking out for? Any advice y'all have got is appreciated greatly....also, just general discussion on what the difference is would be enlightening, I think, too. Anyway, help please?

You know, I see questions like this and I'm totally baffled. Makes me wonder if I skipped out of school that day. Because I just write the story. What does it mean to "show off?" What would writing that is showing off look like?

SPMiller · Jul 8, 2009

Shadow_Ferret said:
You know, I see questions like this and I'm totally baffled. Makes me wonder if I skipped out of school that day. Because I just write the story. What does it mean to "show off?" What would writing that is showing off look like?

Read almost any random Pulitzer or Booker winner.

You'll never respect the prizes ever again.

Cranky · Jul 8, 2009

SPMiller said:
Um. You have nothing to worry about from Mr McCarthy. Did you read his 2007 Pulitzer winner? Yeah, that book is purple in its own special way, and the story didn't have much of a point. The man has an obsession with adjectives and similes, and it's terribly distracting. You have your own strengths.

Ah, the subjectivity thingy! I happen to really like his stuff (hence my fevered imaginings about his contempt, lol). But Raymond Chandler does similies better than anyone, so naturally, he would fall short of that mark.

Shadow_Ferret said:
You know, I see questions like this and I'm totally baffled. Makes me wonder if I skipped out of school that day. Because I just write the story. What does it mean to "show off?" What would writing that is showing off look like?

To me, showing off is like pornography. I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

thethinker42 · Jul 8, 2009

Cranky said:
To me, showing off is like pornography. I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

To me, it's writing that says "LOOK WHAT A GREAT WRITER I AM", drawing attention away from the story and to itself. And as you said...you know it when you see it.

Cranky · Jul 8, 2009

thethinker42 said:
To me, it's writing that says "LOOK WHAT A GREAT WRITER I AM", drawing attention away from the story and to itself. And as you said...you know it when you see it.

Yep. And I don't want to be that writer. *shudders*

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 9, 2009

SPMiller said:
Read almost any random Pulitzer or Booker winner.

You'll never respect the prizes ever again.

Why would I torment myself like that in the first place?

Cranky said:
To me, showing off is like pornography. I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.

thethinker42 said:
To me, it's writing that says "LOOK WHAT A GREAT WRITER I AM", drawing attention away from the story and to itself. And as you said...you know it when you see it.

Guess I've never seen it or I'm just unaware of it when I do read it. Are there any authors notorious for it?

SPMiller · Jul 9, 2009

Lots.

Some in the fantasy genre, too, but they're not your style.

KTC · Jul 9, 2009

SPMiller said:
Read almost any random Pulitzer or Booker winner.

You'll never respect the prizes ever again.

*SNAP*

scarletpeaches · Jul 9, 2009

SPMiller said:
Read almost any random Pulitzer or Booker winner.

You'll never respect the prizes ever again.

I have.

And I do.

Reverse snobbery does not detract from the beauty of Ishiguro's writing, nor Rushdie's.

KTC · Jul 9, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
I have.

And I do.

Reverse snobbery does not detract from the beauty of Ishiguro's writing, nor Rushdie's.

Yep. I check them out too. Can't agree with you on Rushdie...but I love some of the prize winners.

scarletpeaches · Jul 9, 2009

Shut up.

But not forever, seeing as you partially agreed with me.

Ken · Jul 9, 2009

... whether these prize winning novels are great or not, I've always admired how inclusive the selection is, representative of all countries around the globe, particularly in recent years. The organizations that present the awards are to be congratulated for this, helping people everywhere to embrace other cultures and cherish diversity

SPMiller · Jul 9, 2009

scarletpeaches said:
I have.

And I do.

Reverse snobbery does not detract from the beauty of Ishiguro's writing, nor Rushdie's.

I'm just a different sort of snob.

Shadow_Ferret · Jul 9, 2009

SPMiller said:
Lots.

Some in the fantasy genre, too, but they're not your style.

My writing genre?

Or my reading genre? Because my reading genre is fairly varied.

Not exactly sure how you even know what my "style" is.

Taking Risks or Showing Off?

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

CaroGirl

Living the dream

NicoleMD

Onomatopotamus

Cranky

Tanya Egan Gibson

Cranky

Shweta

Sick and absent

Cranky

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

Cranky

thethinker42

Abnormal Romance Author

Cranky

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

scarletpeaches

KTC

Stand in the Place Where You Live

scarletpeaches

Ken

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

Shadow_Ferret

Court Jester